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I’d have liked to see a real remake. I like the original a lot but the combat is clunky as gently caress, and the level geometry is really simplistic even by 2003 standards. You were also rather limited in what the game would allow you to mod so there’s only so much amateurs can fix unless the Odyssey Engine source port that’s out there ever gets finished.
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Aug 2, 2022 22:26
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It would take a lot for me to take on the remake. A complete overhaul of the player dialogue writing for one thing. As far as obnoxious Bioware writing trends go, Kotor 1 isn't that bad and it does give you more freedom than later games, but my god the writing for your options is terrible and you frequently sound like a child with zero concept of subtlety. The companions are fun and have good writing but that only amplifies how bad your own dialogue options sound in comparison.
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Aug 2, 2022 22:33
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They were going to completely redo the voice acting so it stands to reason there was going to be some rewriting of dialogue.
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Aug 2, 2022 22:36
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Yes, from what was available, there was going to be a wholly new script. Although as I recall one of the writers had previously talked about not liking KOTOR, so....
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Aug 2, 2022 22:40
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Well redoing the dialogue means it's a failed venture since John Cygan is dead and I won't accept any alternative for Canderous.
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Aug 2, 2022 22:41
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Ed Asner has also since died. When I replayed a few years ago I was a bit shocked by how cringey the Bastilla romance was. Any good remake would have to put some effort into making her slightly more likable.
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Aug 2, 2022 22:47
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Have the romances narrated using HK-47's mockery lines from Kotor 2. Let's press our slimy mucus covered lips together in the cargo hold.
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Aug 2, 2022 22:49
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Casimir Radon posted:I was a bit concerned that it was too big a project for Aspyr since they’re mainly known for doing Mac ports. Looks like I might have been right. To be fair Aspyr was doing fine with the various ports of other Star Wars games, but KOTOR is just a different beast from something like Jedi Outcast/Academy or Republic Commando or Episode 1 Racer.
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Aug 2, 2022 23:03
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Angry_Ed posted:To be fair Aspyr was doing fine with the various ports of other Star Wars games, but KOTOR is just a different beast from something like Jedi Outcast/Academy or Republic Commando or Episode 1 Racer.
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Aug 2, 2022 23:59
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Chairman Capone posted:Although as I recall one of the writers had previously talked about not liking KOTOR, so.... I think that was one of those "angry youtubers blow stuff out of proportion" things. The tweet they kept referencing was part of a thread about the Yoda Stories desktop game, and the joke was that it was her favorite Star Wars game rather than KOTOR, which is the conventional choice. https://twitter.com/SamMaggs/status/1138209204647284736?s=20&t=TG31WyaGBQu_Nm0go2iFGQ It's like saying someone shouldn't be working on Zelda because they tweeted about Freshly-Picked Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland instead of Ocarina of Time.
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Aug 3, 2022 00:11
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Joking that you like Yoda Stories better than KOTOR is perfectly valid. I can totally see some willfully dense YouTube idiot freaking out about it.
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Aug 3, 2022 00:19
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Yoda Stories is a pretty cute little game. It's a very fun little toy that you can easily see how to create yourself, so I would totally understand a designer citing it as their favourite if it got them at the right moment in childhood. It's also hilarious to joke about liking more than literally any other Star Wars game because it's that basic. Arc Hammer posted:Revan is da greatestest Sith jedi ever he uses a purple Saber because it's light and dark! Revan fanboys are worse than Thrawn fanboys.
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Aug 3, 2022 02:21
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Arc Hammer posted:Revan is da greatestest Sith jedi ever he uses a purple Saber because it's light and dark! A lot of that comes from Revan's function in the game, right? You choose the Player Character's name, their face, their words - they're basically "you" in Star Wars unless you decide to roleplay them as a specific type of person. And throughout the whole game, you hear about how cool and powerful Revan was, right up until the reveal and suddenly everyone's actually been saying how cool and powerful you are the whole time. So all the Revan fan hyperbole is really just self-validation for those fans. Something similar happened in the early 2000's with fans wanting to see Kyle Katarn show up more outside of the games, but because Kyle's ultimately his own character and the player just kind of tells him what to do, it didn't get as much traction as "literally you" Revan.
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Aug 3, 2022 02:43
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I mean, the twist works in KOTOR 1 because it plays off of that sudden validation that you were the badass and you can use the reveal to inform how you act or react going forward. KOTOR 2 was pretty clever in how it danced around who Revan was in KOTOR 1 outside of a few choices by the player character, and instead focused on the tangible results of Revan's actions during and immediately following the Mandalorian Wars, while leaving the rest up to interpretation and Avellone's signature style of "history as myth". It leaves things open ended enough to let you still imagine what Revan was as informed by your player actions from KOTOR 1. And that's really where it should have ended, with Revan and the Exile off to battle the darkness on the edge of the galaxy and vanish into the annals of history. When you build up the hype train that much and with so much of it built around player gratification, making Revan and the Exile into defined characters you interact with is a mistake because the writers are filling in the gaps that players would use their imagination to fill. It comes up short every time, because the written word can't compete with unchained imagination. And with every extra thing written about Revan or the Exile that describes what they did after their stories ended in KOTOR 1 and 2, the dumber it gets. Revan invented the Rule of Two! Also he survived 300 years playing mind games with the most strongest super sith dark lord of all time! And he had a holocron with all his secret techniques recorded in it! And then he balanced light and dark and showed true enlightenment with the Force! And then he made his own army to fight the Sith and the Republic again! And he got split into two people because he was strong enough in the force to inhabit two bodies! And the Exile's ghost followed him around! There really isn't anywhere you can go with either of the characters after their respective games that doesn't cheapen the experience in my eyes. But since they're both characters built around player gratification, all the writing about the badass stuff they do is basically candy to the people who really got into their characters, and it just swells the hype further and further. It makes me groan. Power creep in the Old Republic era is something I've never been a fan of, and I say that as a big fan of Nihilus being the deadliest being that possibly ever existed. The power of the Force, the power of annihilation, of nothingness, is insignificant next to the power of the self in KOTOR 2. It's really the only way that Nihilus works as a villain, because he's the dark reflection of you as the player. He's a personal villain despite being the most powerful thing ever, and outside of the story of KOTOR 2 he really wouldn't have much impact if he appeared and we learned more about him. Things like Nihilus, like Revan, like the Exile, they should be left to stand alone and be what they are, rather than an endless wankfest continually cranking out new power creep to show off how badass these characters are. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Aug 3, 2022 |
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Aug 3, 2022 03:08
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Arc Hammer posted:Revan invented the Rule of Two! no that was darth bane the edgelord
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Aug 3, 2022 03:11
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As it turns out, Bane got the idea for it from Revan's holocron. Even Drew Karpyshyn's not immune to the "I am Revan and we are the greatest" stuff (or maybe he's more susceptible because he actually wrote the game).
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Aug 3, 2022 03:15
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Yep, in Path of Destruction Darth Bane travels to Lehon and finds a super secret holocron that Revan left behind at the Rakatan Temple that talks about how weak the Sith were as an army, so Bane takes Revan's technique for the Force Bomb and gives it to the other Sith to use on Ruusan, killing them all in the process so Bane can bring back the Rule of Two. Retcons! It's all so very stupid. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Aug 3, 2022 |
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Aug 3, 2022 03:17
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Arc Hammer posted:Also he survived 300 years playing mind games with the most strongest super sith dark lord of all time! And he had a holocron with all his secret techniques recorded in it! And then he balanced light and dark and showed true enlightenment with the Force! And then he made his own army to fight the Sith and the Republic again! And he got split into two people because he was strong enough in the force to inhabit two bodies! And the Exile's ghost followed him around! Lol, is this really what happens in the Old Republic game? If so, that game is dumb as hell.
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Aug 3, 2022 03:53
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More or less. Revan fails to kill the Sith Emperor, Exile is killed in the attempt and becomes a force ghost who stays at Revan's side. Revan is held in suspended animation for 300 years using his super connection to the Force to battle with the Sith Emperor's mind and delay the Sith invasion hinted at the end of Kotor 2. Revan is eventually freed from prison during the Jedi Knight class's storyline and goes to a mini version of the Star Forge to make an army of doomsday droids who all got defeated by the Sith Empire. Eventually Revan was split between two bodies, the light side body who looks like a force ghost of default mullet man from KOTOR 1 and the dark side body that wears the Revan Sith armour. Revan starts building another army using another Rakatan doomsday weapon to make an infinite cyborg army but then his mullet man ghost tells evil revan to calm down and they vanish into the void. BUT THEN. The Sith Emperor resurrects again so Revan's Force Ghost shows up to help the player character finally defeat the Super Duper Mega Emperor's final form called Tenebrae and they do that thing from Episode 9 where Rey has all the Jedi with her except it's Revan and the Exile and all the Ghosts of people killed by the Emperor teaming up to annihilate the Emperor from existence. I'm sure Revan will show up again at some point in the MMO because they cannot stop using him for increasingly stupid things. He came back to use super doomsday rakatan weapons twice, not including the Star Forge from kotor 1. None of this includes the Darth Bane books where Bane learns everything about making the Sith stronger from reading Revan's holocron diary. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 04:54 on Aug 3, 2022 |
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Aug 3, 2022 04:51
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A lot of the background stuff they put together for TOR was interesting. Shame they wasted it on a dumb MMO. Not the best vehicle for storytelling by a long shot.
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Aug 3, 2022 05:35
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The background videos they did narrated by Lance Henrikson were really good but they stopped doing them once the game released even though their timeline road roadmap had initially intended for the Gnost Dural videos to go back to the very formation of the Jedi Order. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2PcTK-UFq0 This stuff is a really neat way to contextualize almost twenty years of EU material in an in-universe archive, but the mechanics of an MMO really aren't well equipped to follow up on what was laid out. Whatever the MMO was originally intended to be became unfeasible as time went on which is why they started lumping all the classes into one unified story so your avatar becomes the standard Bioware "cool sounding noun" protagonist but with different backgrounds like the Dragon Age Origins classes. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Aug 3, 2022 |
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Aug 3, 2022 05:54
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Arc Hammer posted:Eventually Revan was split between two bodies, the light side body who looks like a force ghost of default mullet man from KOTOR 1 and the dark side body that wears the Revan Sith armour. Revan starts building another army using another Rakatan doomsday weapon to make an infinite cyborg army but then his mullet man ghost tells evil revan to calm down and they vanish into the void.
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Aug 3, 2022 15:09
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Right. Forgot that part. I'm going off of memory and skim reading a 90,000 word wookieepedia article to refresh my knowledge. So he was mullet man force ghost Revan.
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Aug 3, 2022 15:18
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Arc Hammer posted:Whatever the MMO was originally intended to be became unfeasible as time went on which is why they started lumping all the classes into one unified story so your avatar becomes the standard Bioware "cool sounding noun" protagonist but with different backgrounds like the Dragon Age Origins classes. The early expansions at least had faction-specific content, but once you get to the Eternal Empire stuff, huge chunks of the story stop making sense for half the character classes. I can believe the ghost of the Emperor would haunt the Jedi Knight / Sith Warrior, who have a personal connection to him, or even the Jedi Consular / Sith Inquisitor, who have experience dealing with evil spirits. But the immortal Emperor spending all his time trying to take over the body of some random Smuggler or Bounty Hunter is a bit more of a stretch.
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Aug 3, 2022 17:35
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I went back and listened to Canderous's war stories from Kotor 1. He states that the Sith Empire were the ones who approached the Mandalorians with the initial suggestion to battle the Republic during the Mandalorian Wars. Kotor 1 and 2 make it clear that the Sith faced in the games are not actually part of the old empire but are the followers of Revan and in secret Kreia. Before the Jedi Civil War the last person to declare themselves Sith was Exar Kun, who was absolutely not involved with the Sith Empire. The last time the Republic had heard of the actual Sith Empire was 1000 years earlier during the Hyperspace War. So it's kinda weird to me how Canderous just casually mentions that one of the worst wars in Republic history was instigated by an ancient enemy everyone thought was extinct, and the game never touches on the reveal of their existence again. It's kind of a big deal.
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Aug 4, 2022 18:26
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Exar Kun was influenced by Freedon Nadd and Naga Sadow, so the Sith Empire's influence was there in the background the whole time.
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Aug 4, 2022 20:16
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The Sith influence was there but there wasn't really verifiable proof to the Jedi that the Sith Empire was still alive and active. They thought they'd scoured the remnants when the Republic attacked Korriban. And lthe Gnost Dural videos I posted earlier hypothesize that the spirits of the ancient Sith were not aligned with the living Sith Empire, either because they didn't know Tenebrae still lived or because they hated him for fleeing Korriban at the end of the Hyperspace War. It's just surprising that the reveal of the physical, living, breathing Sith species still existing doesn't shock more people or even get mentioned all that much until 300 years later they appear out of nowhere and wreck the Republic.
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Aug 4, 2022 20:29
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It's kind of funny that for the hints of the hidden Sith Empire lurking around the edges of the KOTOR games, Revan and Malak's academy was right on their doorstep and nobody noticed. The nebula that surrounds Sith Space is allegedly pretty hard to navigate, but you'd think the power-hungry Sith at the school on Korriban would at least try to access the other ancient worlds in the sector. If they had, they would have discovered that the secretive True Sith Kreia warned about were just chilling down the highway on Dromund Kass the whole time.
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Aug 4, 2022 22:56
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Arc Hammer posted:In Dark Apprentice Coruscant still has polar ice caps and Han and Kyo go hover skiing down the slopes next to some giant planetary weather control stations. They also survive an avalanche. yeah those books are just all over the place. dala was never a great villian and some how gets to be president and then the empire kinda wins at the end of the legends series basicaly by virture of being the last factions standing but this time with the fel family as kings or whatever. like i have a bunch of issues with the new canon but end stage legends canon was a nightmare basically after endor.
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Aug 5, 2022 00:11
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Dapper_Swindler posted:the empire kinda wins at the end of the legends series basicaly by virture of being the last factions standing but this time with the fel family as kings or whatever. Not to mention Han & Leia's daughter married the guy who became the first new Emperor, which must have stung after Leia spent the better part of 50 years fighting against various types of galactic fascism.
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Aug 5, 2022 01:25
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Arc Hammer posted:The Sith influence was there but there wasn't really verifiable proof to the Jedi that the Sith Empire was still alive and active. They thought they'd scoured the remnants when the Republic attacked Korriban. And lthe Gnost Dural videos I posted earlier hypothesize that the spirits of the ancient Sith were not aligned with the living Sith Empire, either because they didn't know Tenebrae still lived or because they hated him for fleeing Korriban at the end of the Hyperspace War. TBH anything which goes "why didn't X know about Y?" when it comes to the Sith can be answered by "they're all secretive dickheads".
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Aug 5, 2022 01:30
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I thought the Sith Masassi were extinct after the Exar Kun war?
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Aug 5, 2022 01:52
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Nah, they still float around until at least when the survey team was looking at Yavin IV for the Rebellion, although it's from the first Marvel run so they also look nothing like what they later turned into.
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Aug 5, 2022 02:12
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Robot Style posted:Not to mention Han & Leia's daughter married the guy who became the first new Emperor, which must have stung after Leia spent the better part of 50 years fighting against various types of galactic fascism. I think Princess Leia of House Organa is fine with monarchy. Although that does make me think about how the Republic seems to have zero criteria when it comes to membership and we seem to rarely see actual democrat societies. There are a ton of member worlds where the monarch wields actual power, worlds run by corporations like Corellia, to just corporations themselves like the Trade Federation holding membership in the Senate (even during the Clone Wars), to Ryloth with its clan system without any apparent central government. It's closer to a stronger UN.
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Aug 5, 2022 21:21
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OhFunny posted:to just corporations themselves like the Trade Federation holding membership in the Senate (even during the Clone Wars) I never quite synced with what Lucas was trying to say with the prequels, even if I mostly understood it. But one of the few times I was totally on board with what he was selling was when he had the Trade Federation just being a member of the Senate. It would be sort of like Amazon or Google having a Senate seat in the US Congress. It perfectly sold that the Galactic Senate was beyond saving. It was great.
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Aug 5, 2022 22:40
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thrawn527 posted:I never quite synced with what Lucas was trying to say with the prequels, even if I mostly understood it. But one of the few times I was totally on board with what he was selling was when he had the Trade Federation just being a member of the Senate. It would be sort of like Amazon or Google having a Senate seat in the US Congress. It perfectly sold that the Galactic Senate was beyond saving. It was great.
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Aug 7, 2022 01:06
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OhFunny posted:It's closer to a stronger UN. i'm not even sure the republic is stronger than the UN by the time of the prequels. it seems to have practically no state apparatus at all beyond the senate and (effectively) the jedi, and would have folded to the separatists immediately if it had been a real war and the sith hadn't cooked up an army to sell the fake war. of course this is all probably because the sith have been dismantling the republic for centuries in the background since in every other time period it seems like the republic is an actual state instead of a loose oversight body
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Aug 7, 2022 02:29
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There is one Clone Wars episode that mentions the Republic government runs the electric power system on Coruscant (and is spending money on the army instead), but that's probably just for Coruscant alone. The same episode is also about the Republic getting rid of its banking regulations to appease the pro-Separatist Banking Clan in exchange for a promise of no rate hikes, which the Banking Clan immediately renegs on, which is very close to the Democratic Party's MO.
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Aug 7, 2022 02:36
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That's super weird because it seems like the Republic is paying itself for electricity and threathening to hold out unless they pay themselves on time. Feels like a problem easily solved by a "we're requisitioning this and paying you in war bonds" kind of deal but I guess that'd be counterproductive when ol' Sheev was trying to privitise and gut the Republic behind the scenes.
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Aug 7, 2022 02:39
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I believe the debate in the Republic Senate wasn't about deregulating the banks to get additional loans for more clone troops vs paying to keep the power plants running, but doing the former vs opening peace talks. Padmé manages to get the Senate to vote for peace talks, but the power plants on Coruscant get bombed by pro-war Separatists and the attack whips the Senate into a frenzy and they scrap the peace talks vote to continue the war.
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Aug 7, 2022 22:25
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