(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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Falstaff posted:So, in the now long-since-dead D&D equivalent of this thread Cpt_Obvious started, I'd tasked myself with working through Capital for the second time in my life and sharing my thoughts/interpretation/simplification of it, primarily for my own edification and to allow others the opportunity to correct any missteps in analysis I might make, but also for anyone else who might get something out of it. I stopped doing it half-finished due to a combination of ramping covid-related stress at work, and my growing disgust with D&D mods and culture (I just didn't want to participate in threads there anymore.)  I've never read it and I just lurk this thread mostly so I would be interested
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Aug 9, 2022 00:33
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Mr. Lobe posted:The difference is the relationship to the levers of power. The lumpenproletariat doesn't have the same leverage that the proletariat does. They don't have the same ability to shut things down. if you're talking surplus army of labor, sure they do, they just have to not scab during strikes
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Aug 9, 2022 00:40
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Atrocious Joe posted:https://twitter.com/Blklivesmatter/status/1556745568495538176?s=20&t=cEwLpp2sXNjXH18WCbYVUw Lmao
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Aug 9, 2022 01:26
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Falstaff posted:I still have a few weeks of summer break left, and I've been thinking about picking it up again. Would it be worth posting my analysis here? 
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Aug 9, 2022 01:28
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HiroProtagonist posted:i think you misunderstood my point which was agreeing with you, not sure how i led you there except maybe by the personal examples i included, despite which i was doing to prove exactly what you are now saying. That sole proprietors and high earning workers are not petit bourgeois per se, because by definition any member of the bourgeois class is exploiting the surplus value created by the labor of others (e: exploiting it directly that is). whether that exploitation is on a larger or smaller scale is relevant but a different question entirely. the sole proprietor cannot be ejected into the street to die with no recourse based on the whims of the boss. they own their means of production and have total control of the firm. thats what makes the petit bourgeoisie the petit bourgeoisie.
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Aug 9, 2022 01:55
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 This is why you read theory
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Aug 9, 2022 06:28
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Sowellism third worldism
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Aug 9, 2022 06:34
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The people they're trying to copy all read theory!
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Aug 9, 2022 06:36
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croup coughfield posted:the sole proprietor cannot be ejected into the street to die with no recourse based on the whims of the boss. they own their means of production and have total control of the firm. thats what makes the petit bourgeoisie the petit bourgeoisie. yeah, you and unwanted platypus are right. i dont know what tree i was barking up but it was 100% incorrect theoretically.
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Aug 9, 2022 16:16
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euphronius posted:someone posted in here a good essay not long ago on how the Bolsheviks thought to get petit boug assimilated into communism you probably mean the bit from abc of communism gradenko posted recently. gradenko_2000 posted:more from "The ABC of Communism":
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Aug 9, 2022 16:57
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Revisionists DESTROYED with FACTS and LOGIC
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Aug 9, 2022 17:19
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croup coughfield posted:remedial marxism: Why wouldn't a plumber going out on his own, creating a firm, and then hiring other plumbers be "full" bougie? He now owns the platform of connections etc., just on a small scale.
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Aug 9, 2022 17:32
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Falstaff posted:So, in the now long-since-dead D&D equivalent of this thread Cpt_Obvious started, I'd tasked myself with working through Capital for the second time in my life and sharing my thoughts/interpretation/simplification of it, primarily for my own edification and to allow others the opportunity to correct any missteps in analysis I might make, but also for anyone else who might get something out of it. I stopped doing it half-finished due to a combination of ramping covid-related stress at work, and my growing disgust with D&D mods and culture (I just didn't want to participate in threads there anymore.) I think there's likely a bunch of people that lurk this thread, or C-SPAM for that matter, without necessarily feeling like they have sufficient insight to contribute meaningfully. This is as good a place as any to get more eyes and minds on the topic. Your primary concern seems unwarranted, therefore,
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Aug 9, 2022 17:42
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SuperKlaus posted:Why wouldn't a plumber going out on his own, creating a firm, and then hiring other plumbers be "full" bougie? He now owns the platform of connections etc., just on a small scale. I don't know but I want to guess! Is it because plumber still operates on C-M-C economy instead of M-C-M' economy?
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Aug 9, 2022 20:07
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SuperKlaus posted:Why wouldn't a plumber going out on his own, creating a firm, and then hiring other plumbers be "full" bougie? He now owns the platform of connections etc., just on a small scale. For context, a lot of tradesmen I've known and worked with do contract work for bigger companies at lovely rates. It ends up being gig work with a higher status, owing to the worker's skill and investment in their tools and vehicle. (Apropos of nothing, my spouse recently left a job working for a company that acts as a middleman for this kind of thing--like, Burger King and TJ Maxx don't trust their managers to call a plumber or contractor and negotiate the cost to fix a leaky faucet or broken window, so they contract another company to figure it out. There's a shortage of skilled tradespeople, and they're demanding higher rates and getting them. The business model for these companies looks unsustainable.)
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Aug 9, 2022 20:10
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is the plumber a trans woman of color with bpd? i subscribe to progressive stack economics
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Aug 9, 2022 20:11
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SuperKlaus posted:Why wouldn't a plumber going out on his own, creating a firm, and then hiring other plumbers be "full" bougie? He now owns the platform of connections etc., just on a small scale. Wouldn't this depend on if they were still selling their labor? If they are then they're petit boug, otherwise boug?
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Aug 9, 2022 20:11
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My understanding is that the difference between working within a business you own rather than simply collecting profits off the top aligns one's self-interest a bit more with workers. Since the person who makes decisions about hours, working conditions, etc. is also affected by them similarly to his workers, his self-interest is more closely aligned. Think about it: Let's say you have a doctor that has his own practice. The bathroom is probably going to be better kept because the owner has to use it. The hours are going to be better because the owner has to keep them (with exceptions). The equipment is going to be in a better condition because the owner has to use it. That doesn't mean that the owner and his employees are going to be best buds, but having to experience the same work day means they are going to be more empathetic to their needs than someone who never steps foot inside the building and is incentivized to make everyone's life miserable.
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Aug 9, 2022 20:22
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SuperKlaus posted:Why wouldn't a plumber going out on his own, creating a firm, and then hiring other plumbers be "full" bougie? He now owns the platform of connections etc., just on a small scale. if the plumber is still performing labor within the firm, and take the profits from the firm, they're petit bourgeoisie. if they delegate all useful labor to employees and take the profits, they are bourgeoisie. for clarity, looking at a spreadsheet and saying "this is bad i would like the numbers to be higher" and golfing with your buddies to ask for a sweetheart contract is not useful labor in this context.
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Aug 9, 2022 20:54
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Yes, that works, still personally performing useful labor for wage makes a good dividing line, and that explains how petit bourgeoisie can be revolutionary allies - they are exploited too by big boog.
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Aug 9, 2022 21:05
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 Me after reading the last 5 pages.
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Aug 9, 2022 21:57
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while the thread is busy and we're talking basic marxism, i cant emphasize enough the importance of reading and understanding capital if you have any intent toward organizing people in your (irl) communities. no excuses just read the fuckin book, at least the first one
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Aug 9, 2022 22:11
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croup coughfield posted:while the thread is busy and we're talking basic marxism, i cant emphasize enough the importance of reading and understanding capital if you have any intent toward organizing people in your (irl) communities. no excuses just read the fuckin book, at least the first one Could you expand on this? How does reading Capital help with organizing?
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Aug 9, 2022 22:14
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unwantedplatypus posted:Could you expand on this? How does reading Capital help with organizing? one thing i see constantly is that you'll be out tabling somewhere or whatever a given org does for outreach and recruitment. people will walk up to the table and start asking very reasonable questions that honestly a lot of self-identified leftists should be able to answer, but simply can't. they have no grounding in either poltiics or economics, much less marxism or marxian economics specifically. so the people at the table just start going off on whatever ragtime bullshit they've cobbled together in their minds and sound like idiots, psychos, or both. if the organization you're a part of can't or won't educate you, and there isn't an alternative for some reason, you have to educate yourself. you have to understand the forces you're fighting! its the key to class consciousness and without class consciousness, you might as well just go home and jack off
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Aug 9, 2022 22:41
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unwantedplatypus posted:I think lumpen is useful as a term to describe the class of people that primarily survive neither through ownership of capital, nor through selling their labor. This is a unique relationship to production, in much the same way that prole, bourgeois, and petit all have unique relationships to production. maybe the United States has capitalists, petit bourgeois car dealership owners and such, labor that is protected with state certificates and licenses, labor that isn’t protected, labor that is ‘illegal’ such as undocumented workers (quasi-slaves who might get manumission if they don’t complain), literal slaves, criminals, independent contractors, shitloads of service sector workers mostly working in small workplaces … I don’t know where I’m going here but the proletariat seems to have gotten cut up into little discrete pieces in the US I’m not sure where the lumpen begins and the proletariat ends
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Aug 9, 2022 23:03
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croup coughfield posted:while the thread is busy and we're talking basic marxism, i cant emphasize enough the importance of reading and understanding capital if you have any intent toward organizing people in your (irl) communities. no excuses just read the fuckin book, at least the first one i disagree vehemently, there are countless incidents of people sympathetic to socialism and wanting to understand the basic tenets that bounced off this book and went nowhere. and i'm speaking as someone actually did finish reading capital (even read volume two!). its really good but it took a reading group of like minded people to help get me through it because it genuinely was extremely badly (or archaically?) written. as a socialist you should want socialist theory to reach the maximum number of people with the least amount of pain. i didn't need to read the original newton to get a grasp of physics in high school. you shouldn't have to read a 150 year old book to get marxism, there really should be an updated and more relatable and simpe version version that's held as the standard. and it doesn't even have to be a book, consider the number of people who've turned into reactionaries purely through youtube consumption.
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Aug 9, 2022 23:07
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mila kunis posted:i disagree vehemently, there are countless incidents of people sympathetic to socialism and wanting to understand the basic tenets that bounced off this book and went nowhere. and i'm speaking as someone actually did finish reading capital (even read volume two!). its really good but it took a reading group of like minded people to help get me through it because it genuinely was extremely badly (or archaically?) written. then start a reading group and help them. put some of that bitching energy to use. the first three chapters are hard and no one will argue it, but this rending of garments over requiring someone to read a foundational text of their own purported ideology to be a political organizer is absurd. there's plenty of things for lazy assholes and dipshits to busy themselves with youtube. get the gently caress out
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Aug 9, 2022 23:22
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mila kunis posted:i disagree vehemently, there are countless incidents of people sympathetic to socialism and wanting to understand the basic tenets that bounced off this book and went nowhere. and i'm speaking as someone actually did finish reading capital (even read volume two!). its really good but it took a reading group of like minded people to help get me through it because it genuinely was extremely badly (or archaically?) written. Incidentally, if a person wants to understand, say, classical mechanics, there are much better books to read than anything Newton wrote--and indeed there are far more comprehensive and powerful (and modern) formulations, like Lagrangian or Hamiltonian mechanics. A person serious about doing classical mechanics would spend most of their time using the more modern and sophisticated tools and treatments. When it comes to Marxism and socialist theory in general, a lot of the secondary literature is garbage, which is a shame because the primary literature is pretty poo poo too. Probably if someone managed to put forth a modern, coherent, theoretical treatment that was actually worth a poo poo, left wing politics would be in a better place.
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Aug 9, 2022 23:23
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yanking off the meg mask to reveal tom pinketty
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Aug 9, 2022 23:28
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Thanks for the encouragement, folks. I'm going to get a few posts ready to go, and once they're ready I'll be moving my Capital posts from the Hate Your Boss thread over to here.
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Aug 9, 2022 23:35
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croup coughfield posted:then start a reading group and help them. put some of that bitching energy to use. the first three chapters are hard and no one will argue it, but this rending of garments over requiring someone to read a foundational text of their own purported ideology to be a political organizer is absurd. there's plenty of things for lazy assholes and dipshits to busy themselves with as i said, i've read both volumes one and two. they have fantastic insights and ideas and a deluge of facts and arguments that are good, but are either poorly written or archaic by modern standards, pick your flavour of criticism. resistance to the idea that socialist theory should as accessible as possible in all forms of media, and people shouldn't feel obligated to be gatekept by a 150 year old text, does not befit someone who wants socialism to win.
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Aug 9, 2022 23:35
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Morbus posted:Incidentally, if a person wants to understand, say, classical mechanics, there are much better books to read than anything Newton wrote--and indeed there are far more comprehensive and powerful (and modern) formulations, like Lagrangian or Hamiltonian mechanics. A person serious about doing classical mechanics would spend most of their time using the more modern and sophisticated tools and treatments. yeah i imagine a textbook from the ussr, or a more modern translated one from china (or the vietnam one someone linked earlier?) would probably be a step in the right direction
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Aug 9, 2022 23:36
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for general philosophy, plato still beats the hell out of 99% of anything else ever written so there is something to be said for beginning at the beginning
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Aug 9, 2022 23:37
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it sucks that most westerners thinks stalin is tied with hitler for historys greatest monster because his writing is incredibly accessible, digestible and just plain fun to read. Foundations of Leninism is a perfect entry text but good luck not freaking out the squares by recommending it
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Aug 9, 2022 23:53
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I mean, is it not true that he killed a lot of people, even if you subtract the nazis and reactionaries.
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Aug 9, 2022 23:55
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The Voice of Labor posted:for general philosophy, plato still beats the hell out of 99% of anything else ever written so there is something to be said for beginning at the beginning loling at the stupidity of this post any philosophy written more than 30 years ago is garbage, works like computers.
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Aug 10, 2022 00:12
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Falstaff posted:Thanks for the encouragement, folks. I'm going to get a few posts ready to go, and once they're ready I'll be moving my Capital posts from the Hate Your Boss thread over to here. Do you want me to unlock the thread to make it easier to access? Edit: unlocked.
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Aug 10, 2022 00:18
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Thanks Cpt_Obvious, but I already grabbed what I needed from it.
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Aug 10, 2022 00:36
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unwantedplatypus posted:I mean, is it not true that he killed a lot of people, even if you subtract the nazis and reactionaries. This is where the forbidden Losurdo comes in. Long story short: Yeah, but he was in no way special among world leaders in this regard, and might have even been more restrained than most.
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Aug 10, 2022 00:37
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tokin opposition posted:any philosophy written more than 30 years ago is garbage, works like computers. even for the eternally unsolvable questions, and unresolvable antinomies that actually has moments when it's true. anything that references the natural sciences ages like milk. yes hobbes, I'm looking at you. or, like, when lenin says there's positive and negative electrical current
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Aug 10, 2022 01:03
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