(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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CoolCab posted:my most pointed critique is often that the person who has a hugely negative reaction to any given socialist leader would have probably also hated trotsky or whoever else if they'd heard of them, which limits somewhat how much progress you can move forward if you want to idolize people who actually did things rather than people who write good. even then people still routinely blame marx himself for all the victims of communism (of the memorial fund i mean) loving somehow and afaik all he did was drink and argue. yeah trotsky was in many ways more right wing and """authoritarian""" than stalin in terms of his preferences expressed and proposals made over the course of the ussr's development. i don't actually mean this as a criticism; i think trotsky's desire to eg militarize and centralize all the trade unions was well-meaning but impractical. the same goes for "permanent revolution" vs "socialism in one country"; it wasn't insane or evil to put all your chips on reigniting the spark of revolution in europe rather than turtling up and making do with what you had, but it was plainly less feasible (as well as based on a simplistic view of the soviet peasantry) and that's why it was an incredibly unpopular idea only a tiny fraction of the bolsheviks, old and new, were sold on but all that said i assume that an alt-history trotsky who wound up as the general secretary of the party would have ended up making the same moves that stalin did (and end up reviled by Zinovievists or Preobrazhenskyists or whatever) because while men make their own history, they do not make it as they please
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Aug 13, 2022 18:51
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| # ? Jun 10, 2024 08:25 |
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if there's anything that both studying history and organizing irl has taught me it's that coalitions do not survive their own successes and there will always, always, always be minorities of malcontents grumbling that you've betrayed the revolution the moment you succeed at attaining and now have to wield power. this is true whether you're overthrowing bautista or just trying to unionize some grad students. it's the devil's dust of collective struggle
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Aug 13, 2022 18:54
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Aug 13, 2022 19:04
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Can the thread title be "you can still be normal and defend stalin" please? Maybe even the CSPAM subtitle Anyway I'm making my way thru Making of the English Working Class and it's good, though its depressing I know how it all ends. British poo poo is always so depressing cause you can see the exact same poo poo that's still unresolved or worse todag I just keep thinking "oh buddy you don't know nothing yet!" which is what I kinda think about all these old writers, they are like little baby This thread is kinda discouraging to read lol
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Aug 13, 2022 19:30
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Lol thanks!
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Aug 13, 2022 19:40
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here’s my idea of zoomer outreach. well re-skin among us to ussr head honchos and find out who’d really win the hypotheticals
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Aug 13, 2022 19:48
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can we get a balance patch so chernenko doesn't immediately die 2 seconds into every round
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Aug 13, 2022 19:58
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Does anyone have any book recs about Allende and the Chilean coup?
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Aug 13, 2022 20:05
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CoolCab posted:my most pointed critique is often that the person who has a hugely negative reaction to any given socialist leader would have probably also hated trotsky or whoever else if they'd heard of them, which limits somewhat how much progress you can move forward if you want to idolize people who actually did things rather than people who write good. even then people still routinely blame marx himself for all the victims of communism (of the memorial fund i mean) loving somehow and afaik all he did was drink and argue. People keep smashing his tomb with a hammer to the point where there wont be much left soon. But maybe he would have wanted that, who knows.
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Aug 13, 2022 20:23
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This bit is pretty good about the jacobins, god don't I recognise this poo pooquote:It was the dilemma of all radical reformers...
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Aug 13, 2022 20:26
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Oh the other good bit is the constant reference to the 18th century lefties main weakness being "self dramatisation" loving bullseye lol
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Aug 13, 2022 20:38
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CoolCab posted:my most pointed critique is often that the person who has a hugely negative reaction to any given socialist leader would have probably also hated trotsky or whoever else if they'd heard of them, which limits somewhat how much progress you can move forward if you want to idolize people who actually did things rather than people who write good. even then people still routinely blame marx himself for all the victims of communism (of the memorial fund i mean) loving somehow and afaik all he did was drink and argue. you shouldn’t idolize people. trotsky was likely a dick and made plenty of mistakes, the reason modern trotskyists are called that is because stalins supporters labeled everyone opposed or in disagreement with the Comintern line as trotskyists, even when they were politically on the opposite side as trotsky. that and he was the first to offer an analysis that explained how and why the ussr had politically degenerated and most traditions that try to create some rationale as to why it happened are labeled that way or label themselves that way. for example the SWP of England is called Trotskyist even though their actual position was that the collapse of the ussr would be progressive, something trotsky and the parties that formed out of the 4th international opposed and argued that even with the degeneration the ussr was still a progressive force. however the reason actual marxists do hate Stalin is because of all the marxists he killed. every time I make the mistake of wandering into this thread I point out that if you hate trotsky so much why don’t you care about bukharin or zinoviev or kamenev or etc etc? a lot of historians use Stalin to argue the authoritarian and dictatorial character the communist party took on are the products of Bolshevism, and stalinists actually help them a great deal. but you can just see what happened historically with examples like when zinoviev opposed Lenin and the central committee and quit the central committee, but was still appointed to positions like chairman of the Petrograd Soviet after that there was robust debate and democracy on the party prior to the revolution and civil war. but this changes overtime and through the civil war and we see eventually after Stalin consolidates power in the party, political enemies and even allys who are now seen as political liabilities to him are marginalized and eventually murdered. Stalin wasn’t responsible solely for the degeneration that happened in the Comintern it was part of historical and social forces, but they were forces that he and the clique around him embraced and used to attain and maintain political power. if you’re gonna cheerlead Stalin then you’re not a Marxist imo. and nah you can’t be a normal person and defend Stalin politically because it’s such an unhinged position and even if you’re not standing on a street corner praising stalins name then the kind of analysis that would lead you to embrace stalins ideas privately is going to lead you in politically unhinged ways, which is why when lefty goons do anything you end up with poo poo like the rhizzone. I only hope people that might lurk this thread who read it and think it’s emblematic of what marxists think and do and are alienated by it can be convinced that actually marxists aren’t weirdos, it’s just unfortunately the case that a lot of weirdos fetishize and attach themselves to marxism, likely because they are on the margins of society themselves and Marxist ideas are still on the margins of mainstream politics.
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Aug 13, 2022 22:21
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the best example of this is how so many people who lionize Stalin see north korea or china as socialist states. a bunch of people will jump down my neck and own me because China is sociaoist you stupid trot but I think time and the course of events are gonna show how out of touch that pov is. if you pay attention to international news and the labor movement it’s already evident but, well,
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Aug 13, 2022 22:33
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lol oh boy tell us about the Uyghur camps next 
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Aug 13, 2022 22:34
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apropos to nothing posted:the best example of this is how so many people who lionize Stalin see north korea or china as socialist states. a bunch of people will jump down my neck and own me because China is sociaoist you stupid trot but I think time and the course of events are gonna show how out of touch that pov is. if you pay attention to international news and the labor movement it’s already evident but, well, How is it already evident?
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Aug 13, 2022 22:42
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i don't really care about "trotskyism" and i think 20th century internal russian political schisms aren't really that relevant today. but my personal experience is that everyone i've encountered who self identifies as "trot" has been an antagonistic rear end in a top hat. i like kshama sawant though.
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Aug 13, 2022 22:52
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unwantedplatypus posted:How is it already evident? I believe last time he dropped by he linked us to this: https://chinaworker.info/en/ An excellent resource with a lot to say  China: The unreal world of Xi Jinping There is a huge and widening gap between reality and how the Chinese dictatorship presents reality. With the 100th anniversary of the founding of the Communist Party (CCP) approaching in July and China’s dictator Xi Jinping needing an endless run of “victories” to secure his position in advance of next year’s regime reshuffle, the state’s propaganda machine has gone into overdrive. Likewise, the grotesque personality cult that has been built around Xi has reached new heights (or depths). In February, the People’s Daily mentioned Xi’s name 139 times in one article celebrating China’s “complete victory” in eradicating poverty. As we shall show, Xi’s anti-poverty campaign is yet another triumph of propaganda over reality. The extreme prickliness of Xi’s regime is revealed by the latest topic to be banned by internet censors: the Chinese character for “emerald” began to spread as a form of protest by Chinese netizens because it can also be read as “Xi dies twice”.
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Aug 13, 2022 22:54
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ah there's been updates since the last time https://chinaworker.info/en/2022/07/13/32892/ China: ‘Zero COVID’: Xi Jinping’s new era of totalitarian control A seismic shift in the public mood has taken place in big cities like Beijing and Shanghai against the economic hardship and brutality of the CCP’s pandemic control policies. With the measures employed this year, the regime has gone “full Orwell”.
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Aug 13, 2022 22:58
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How lucky is it that once again "international news and the labour movement" align with US interests!
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Aug 13, 2022 23:06
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wow this is really bad. who writes this crap?
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Aug 13, 2022 23:06
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sorry very specifically (and i assume you're using the general "you" here i personally have no particular problem with trotsky nor have defended stalin afaik) i mean like, not among other marxists, who have genuine informed and possibly endlessly litigated opinions on eg trotsky, and stalin or at least idiots like me who can watch hail, ceasar (2016) and get at least some of the jokes. i mean the people who define normal, genuinely average and not overwhelmingly political people who again will know who stalin is and will, like i say, react to even neutral comments exactly like neutral comments on hitler. that's a genuine thing to want to avoid, lol. but it's not like "castro" or "chavez" or whoever elicits a positive response if they've heard of them either. i like marxism but i don't know that in the places i've lived across the imperial core marxism will ever come across as normal, and when we got as close as we did we realized that hard. that's not to say "great lets all get our maoist style jumpsuits out because it doesn't matter!" like some people conclude because there are degrees but still.
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Aug 13, 2022 23:07
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never go full orwell
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Aug 13, 2022 23:11
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Raskolnikov38 posted:lol oh boy tell us about the Uyghur camps next The thing about apropos is he’ll make outrageous, arbitrary claims like we’re fans of motherfucking juche or some bizarre offsite like rhizzone then he’ll act like an indignant little bitch when he’s called a loving moron for it. The thing about seeking negative attention is you’ll always find it though, so there’s really nothing you can do about these freaks
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Aug 13, 2022 23:12
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The Voice of Labor posted:never go full orwell Don’t rat out leftists to the police?
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Aug 13, 2022 23:13
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do not rip off a much better marxist dystopian science fiction critique of capitalism into a polemic about the soviet union. don't do it.
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Aug 13, 2022 23:15
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(the critique was better the book afaik was not)
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Aug 13, 2022 23:17
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on a related topic, if anyone has recommended reading on the Sino-Soviet split and the PRC’s position that the USSR had gone down the road of revisionism it’d be appreciated, gracias
Crusader has issued a correction as of 23:39 on Aug 13, 2022 |
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Aug 13, 2022 23:20
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Raskolnikov38 posted:lol oh boy tell us about the Uyghur camps next on previous page you were saying how youre not active in socialist politics because you live in DC, assuming youre not just joking or whatever. what an insane position for a marxist to take, and so like ultimately, whatever you wanna think or say youre free to do so, but youre not a marxist if youre just sitting at home posting on the internet. if youre not open about your beliefs and organizing to make them a reality, what good are your beliefs?
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Aug 13, 2022 23:34
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MLSM posted:The thing about apropos is he’ll make outrageous, arbitrary claims like we’re fans of motherfucking juche or some bizarre offsite like rhizzone then he’ll act like an indignant little bitch when he’s called a loving moron for it. The thing about seeking negative attention is you’ll always find it though, so there’s really nothing you can do about these freaks what party or organization do you belong to so i can check out what you do believe?
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Aug 13, 2022 23:34
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CoolCab posted:sorry very specifically (and i assume you're using the general "you" here i personally have no particular problem with trotsky nor have defended stalin afaik) i mean like, not among other marxists, who have genuine informed and possibly endlessly litigated opinions on eg trotsky, and stalin or at least idiots like me who can watch hail, ceasar (2016) and get at least some of the jokes. i mean the people who define normal, genuinely average and not overwhelmingly political people who again will know who stalin is and will, like i say, react to even neutral comments exactly like neutral comments on hitler. that's a genuine thing to want to avoid, lol. but it's not like "castro" or "chavez" or whoever elicits a positive response if they've heard of them either. i like marxism but i don't know that in the places i've lived across the imperial core marxism will ever come across as normal, and when we got as close as we did we realized that hard. marxism is very normal if you put it to working class people in concrete terms applicable to their daily lives. the problem is most self identified marxists dont do that and organize themselves basically as a weird sub culture that mostly exists online. despite what the one super aggro person said there absolutely are plenty of those people on SA and in this sub forum. i know i come across as a scold and negative etc but its cause the stuff people post about in cspam is like, very much in line with the absolute worst aspects of how most people have come to know and experience left politics in the US and largely divorced from reality. like theres entire threads basically dedicated to panicking. lots of people still get their first experiences with radical politics online though and its bad cause usually online places have totally bizarre political ideas advanced.
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Aug 13, 2022 23:44
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https://twitter.com/gaslighter_/status/1558487524934402048
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Aug 14, 2022 00:13
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Alright everyone pack-it-up, apropos of nothing is the normie whisperer. If we wanna do socialism we gotta denounce all of the socialisms that have actually been tried. Whatever you do, definitely don’t advocate for ideas that don’t seem safe and familiar to your average American.
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Aug 14, 2022 00:19
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yeah just lemme table foggy bottom lol. we can hit up langley after!
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Aug 14, 2022 00:27
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apropos to nothing posted:if you hate trotsky so much why don’t you care about bukharin or zinoviev or kamenev or etc etc? Why would I, they all just woke up one morning and decided to be evil and betray the revolution, turn capitalist, spy for the Entente powers, etc. Along with every other member of the RSDLP prior to 1917.
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Aug 14, 2022 00:28
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hello while you're on your lunch break from the international monetary fund would you like to hear about the dsa?
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Aug 14, 2022 00:29
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O_o there are VA and MD chapters that hold meetings close to metro stops.
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Aug 14, 2022 00:30
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The Baltimore chapter seems dire so I can understand avoiding that one.
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Aug 14, 2022 00:31
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VitalSigns posted:Why would I, they all just woke up one morning and decided to be evil and betray the revolution, turn capitalist, spy for the Entente powers, etc. Along with every other member of the RSDLP prior to 1917. it was stalin that betrayed the revolution. says so right in the book's name
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Aug 14, 2022 00:32
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VitalSigns posted:Why would I, they all just woke up one morning and decided to be evil and betray the revolution, turn capitalist, spy for the Entente powers, etc. Along with every other member of the RSDLP prior to 1917. zinoviev and kamenev would have had to support the revolution in the first place to have betrayed it
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Aug 14, 2022 00:36
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| # ? Jun 10, 2024 08:25 |
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mila kunis posted:i don't really care about "trotskyism" and i think 20th century internal russian political schisms aren't really that relevant today. but my personal experience is that everyone i've encountered who self identifies as "trot" has been an antagonistic rear end in a top hat. just want to reiterate this. online arguments and real life organizing are obviously different things but one common thread between them is the most intensely sectarian assholes who just can't help but derail stuff over petty 20th century schism grudges that have zero relevance to practical work is these guys. i don't talk about stalin or any of that poo poo outside of here because honestly who cares. but they absolutely cannot help themselves and keep creating tension and discord where none ever needed to exist. in practice i have never seen "trotskyism", as practiced by people who identify that way anyway, as serving any purpose except to split people apart and turns friends and comrades into enemies.
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Aug 14, 2022 00:44
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