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Maera Sior posted:The rape is thematically relevant to the characters' arcs. Griffith appeared just when Casca was going to be raped as a child and threw her as sword, Guts learned how to allow the touch of other men after his rape thanks to the Bank of the Hawk (and Griffith never trying anything), and Griffith was willing to prostitute himself to get an army. It's intensely loaded that in this moment, Griffith says "I'm going to do this because I can, gently caress all of you." While Miura himself did portray important male characters going through rape or sexual assault, he always seemed to spend more panel time on the women being victimized. I don't think it was an accident or an oversight, to be honest, but rather an integral part of what he was aiming for. It's clear he wanted to evoke a mix of fascination and revulsion - eroticism and disgust - which has had a place in the long history of both written fiction and horror-adjacent media as a whole (in short, tits and gore). There's numerous examples inside as well as outside of the specifically Japanese context. It's a storytelling choice, no doubt, but one that was colored by structural sexism and misogyny. Is that problematic? Of course it is. Nevertheless, I will still give Miura credit for spending the time and effort to keep Casca in the story after the fact, including finally rehabilitating her in a manner that very few fictional victims ever get to experience. This is also part of why I'm not super thrilled about the continuation's current direction. wielder fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Aug 16, 2022 |
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Aug 16, 2022 22:52
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Problmatic as it would be, to have her go insane again almost immediately after the culmination of a decade-long quest to undo it the first time would be an act of trolling so masterful I could only respond with awe
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Aug 16, 2022 22:59
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Sydin posted:Doesn't really make it any less problematic from a storytelling standpoint or anything, but imo to Griffith the rape was never really about Casca, but Guts. Etc. Agree with all of this. To me it's amazing that Berserk could be so good about writing rape as a form of domination, not sexual desire, but fail repeatedly in how it's storyboarded.
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Aug 16, 2022 23:03
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It was always one of Miura's great weaknesses-- I guess that's what happens when you go directly from school into the top of your trade? He could never quite square his shockingly good insights into the PTSD side of sexual assault with the mangaka desire to shock and awe the audience for visceral thrills. He does a good job for huge stretches, but then you'll like randomly get the trolls just... raping women and it's like "come on man there's no new angle here you're showing us this just to show us."christmas boots posted:Problmatic as it would be, to have her go insane again almost immediately after the culmination of a decade-long quest to undo it the first time would be an act of trolling so masterful I could only respond with awe
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Aug 16, 2022 23:15
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Maera Sior posted:Agree with all of this. To me it's amazing that Berserk could be so good about writing rape as a form of domination, not sexual desire, but fail repeatedly in how it's storyboarded. The trouble with comes down to the fact that making it about Guts and Griffith and the theme of domination doesn't discount the fact that it is coming at the expense of objectifying a female character for the sake of a dynamic between two male leads. Thematically appropriate, sure, but it's a shaky foundation when you're undermining your main female character for it to happen and that's before you even get to the visual presentation. It's an integral part of what makes Berserk Berserk, but that doesn't make it a good thing. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Aug 16, 2022 |
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Aug 16, 2022 23:49
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Arc Hammer posted:
I think this is where I'm at about it. it's critical to the story and the themes and the plot etc, but that doesn't make it not lovely in a lot of ways.
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Aug 17, 2022 01:35
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Caska's rape exists only to deepen Guts' character arc and so yeh it sits firmly in the fridging trope IMO
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Aug 17, 2022 01:42
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If I'm inclined to give Berserk credit, and I am, as a narrative beat it's solid and thematically resonant with a lot that came before, as other posters have pointed out. It's just depicted, as was said by another poster, pornographically. And no, I don't think that's some "the salaciousness is part of the artistic statement" thing, trying to twist yourself into a pretzel to justify it is weird; it was done that way because Miura was a guy making a comic ostensibly for men, and drew it the way he found appealing. I don't think her tits popping out most of the times she's threatened with sexual assault is some stupid statement, especially given what follows both for her and the presence and manifestations of sexual menace throughout the rest of the work. StrangersInTheNight posted:Caska's rape exists only to deepen Guts' character arc and so yeh it sits firmly in the fridging trope IMO It could've been a way to deepen her character, theoretically, if it had any interest in exploring her perspective and how she might deal with everything. Instead in turns her into a rock and her lucidity into a macguffin that exists to be a source of guilt and motivation for Guts for a few hundred chapters.
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Aug 17, 2022 02:01
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Ironslave posted:If I'm inclined to give Berserk credit, and I am, as a narrative beat it's solid and thematically resonant with a lot that came before, as other posters have pointed out. It's just depicted, as was said by another poster, pornographically. And no, I don't think that's some "the salaciousness is part of the artistic statement" thing, trying to twist yourself into a pretzel to justify it is weird; it was done that way because Miura was a guy making a comic ostensibly for men, and drew it the way he found appealing. lol, well, I didn't think I'd wake up today and try to defend a rape scene as "tasteful". it wasn't. but it was very impactful and important. I think the stuff with wyald and the trolls is a good example of gratioutous sexual assault just to triallate. that could be cut out with no problem. so I don't think berserk is a perfect work or miura is flawless. I'd also like to respond to everyone saying that Casca gets objectified or driven insane by the eclipse, while guts is ok. did you guys read the story? Guts literally goes insane after the eclipse. he goes "berserk'! A few examples of the things the "sane" guts does after the eclipse: use a child as bait to kill demons (this actually happens several times) take a child hostage at knife point brutally murder a man in front of his own daughter bath in the blood of a child to put out a fire and he almost rapes casca! Guts is not "ok" after the eclipse. I guess you could say he still has agency, but that is a total misreading of the text. him abandoning casca and going to fight demons is pretty obviously the wrong thing to do. I would say that, Casca actually has a more healthy reaction to the eclipse, as at least all of her pain is internalized. guts constantly takes it out on other creatures and people. he causes the destruction of several towns. I also admit that my perspective may've been skewed because I started reading the manga right after Casca's sanity returned. so for me, although she had lost her mind for a long time, it wasn't the 20 years that it was for people reading in real time. I have faith that she will have an integral part to play in the end of berserk, and I would be shocked if she goes back to being semi-catatonic as predicted by some others in this thread.
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Aug 17, 2022 02:52
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wielder posted:It's a storytelling choice, no doubt, but one that was colored by structural sexism and misogyny. Is that problematic? Of course it is. Nevertheless, I will still give Miura credit for spending the time and effort to keep Casca in the story after the fact, including finally rehabilitating her in a manner that very few fictional victims ever get to experience. This is also part of why I'm not super thrilled about the continuation's current direction. Ironslave posted:If I'm inclined to give Berserk credit, and I am, as a narrative beat it's solid and thematically resonant with a lot that came before, as other posters have pointed out. It's just depicted, as was said by another poster, pornographically. And no, I don't think that's some "the salaciousness is part of the artistic statement" thing, trying to twist yourself into a pretzel to justify it is weird; it was done that way because Miura was a guy making a comic ostensibly for men, and drew it the way he found appealing. Happy Landfill fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Aug 17, 2022 |
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Aug 17, 2022 03:36
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I find the idea that Guts and Griffith handled being sexually assaulted “like manly men” and “got cathartic revenge” to be really weird, they absolutely did not. Guts was scarred for life and killing Donovan and Gambino didn’t provide any catharsis or lesson the trauma in the slightest, it just added on the trauma of being forced to kill someone that was supposed to be like family to him. Griffith’s response to being taken advantage of by a creepy noble was to rationalize it as actually a good thing and numb himself to the pain, internalizing the idea of sex as an expression of power and control and then inflicting that same abuse on others. it is hard though to justify the Casca scene being as extreme as it was. The ‘97 anime toned it down a lot compared to the manga and it wasn’t any less shocking and devastating. Berserk has moments where it treats sexual assault with the gravity it deserves but it also has gratuitous shock value stuff just like other manga of its genre, like Wiegraf, the trolls and whatever the gently caress Ganishka had going on in his place which I’ve partially memory-holed but it was definitely gross and unnecessary.
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Aug 17, 2022 04:03
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Mazed posted:Very interested in what kind of chemistry she's hopefully going to have with Sonia and the various "noble" apostles in their circle. She should, for certain, have a chance to form an opinion of the latter aside from "you're a victim of their kind." My current prediction is that Sonia is going to be his downfall. Her ability of telepathy could have her read Casca's mind to realize that her beloved God Emperor Griffith is a filthy loving rapist and use her ability of mass suggestion to display this to the remaining humans of Falconia. Granted I mean this probably just means that Griffith commits mass murder on a scale never before seen in the world of Berserk and he just simply sees his sandbox kingdom crumble.
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Aug 17, 2022 04:17
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I forgot about Roderick until I saw him in this chapter. That made me remember Azan is also here somewhere off screen. I don't we've seen him for some time though.
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Aug 17, 2022 20:34
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...except in this chapter, where we also see him. Give it a re-read!
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Aug 17, 2022 20:36
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Wasn't Azan also in the recent cave scene? Not that long ago in the grand scheme of things.
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Aug 17, 2022 22:55
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Berserk is clearly quite edgelord-y with several of its aspects; horror, gore and sexual violence is exaggerated to a ridiculous degree. I'm remembering one of the first scenes with the count, where he graphically crushes a freshly-decapitated head. It's almost goofy - but that's not something that can be said about all of the goddamn rape. THAT element is clearly like shlocky horror, meant to shock and titillate. I don't so much mind the existence of these elements in the story, but rather the depiction. The pornographic aspects are, frankly, embarrassing and demeaning. It's something that never quite went away throughout Berserk, even when it got less grimdark. But there's no helping it. Berserk is still a ridiculously well-crafted story, especially for how simplistic it COULD have been. Despite the pornographic bent, we do have women characters you can take seriously. The demeaning depiction of rape is an artistic choice which I cannot and do not want to defend, so the best I can do is acknowledge it, and give a clear warning to anyone I want to recommend the manga to. Berserk will always have this flaw. However, the story has earned enough of my trust to believe that it will not discard the women in the story, like so many other stories with rape in it do. Sucks that you cannot talk about Berserk without mentioning this. I will probably be extremely disappointed if Berserk drops the ball in the end, aaaaaand let's admit it, there's a non-zero chance it will. Here's hope...
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Aug 17, 2022 23:33
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Arc Hammer posted:The trouble with comes down to the fact that making it about Guts and Griffith and the theme of domination doesn't discount the fact that it is coming at the expense of objectifying a female character for the sake of a dynamic between two male leads. Thematically appropriate, sure, but it's a shaky foundation when you're undermining your main female character for it to happen and that's before you even get to the visual presentation.
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Aug 18, 2022 22:42
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I guess Arc's point would still be that this is primarily in service of showing Griffith's arc as a demonstration of how far he has fallen.
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Aug 18, 2022 22:47
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christmas boots posted:I guess Arc's point would still be that this is primarily in service of showing Griffith's arc as a demonstration of how far he has fallen. I can see that but I don't think the sexual violence in the story is handled immaturely or for shock value really at all. I think if anything its an accurate depiction of the horrors of war and the perverse cruelty of man. Of course, there are points where the violence is a little over the top, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's comical. It's brutal and horrifying. But that's the point, I feel. The real world can be a brutal and horrifying place as well. And we struggle through it as well.
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Aug 18, 2022 23:14
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unknown butthole posted:I think if anything its an accurate depiction of the horrors of war
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Aug 18, 2022 23:53
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Bisse posted:I’ve tried for a few minutes now to gather my maelstrom of brain activity from reading this into words to form a reply but I just can’t, so i’ll just quote this as is and go die in a hole somewhere. Let he who is able to consistently tell WWII documentaries apart from particularly gnarly hentai cast the first stone, I say
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Aug 19, 2022 00:49
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LordMune posted:Let he who is able to consistently tell WWII documentaries apart from particularly gnarly hentai cast the first stone, I say I think it says more about you that you think the depictions of sexual violence in berserk amounts to nothing more than "a particularly gnarly hentai". I never once got the idea that the intention from the author was to depict something erotic. Even the depiction of Griffith being exploited by the rich lord shows what a toll it takes on him personally.
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Aug 19, 2022 00:53
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We, including you, were discussing the Eclipse. If you think Miura didn't deliberately adopt a pornographic perspective for shock value I don't know what to tell you.
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Aug 19, 2022 01:02
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I'm gonna be honest Gigantomakhia basically hosed my ability to read anything to do with Miura's work re: sexuality charitably. Once you start incorporating what is pretty clearly fetish material in the form of health restoring child piss I am gonna side eye you forever. I love Berserk but I think it probably deserves harsher criticism around this stuff then it even gets.
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Aug 19, 2022 01:06
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I think the word "pornographic" goes a little too far. I think Slan pretty much literally explains the authors intent in that very scene. It's fear, confusion, betrayal, hatred, lust, and vengeance. Everything an apostle would appreciate in one horrifying scene. If you're speaking about the literal artwork itself, and none of the intent behind it, I could maybe see where you're coming from, but everything requires context.
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Aug 19, 2022 01:12
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Sam Sanskrit posted:I'm gonna be honest Gigantomakhia basically hosed my ability to read anything to do with Miura's work re: sexuality charitably. Once you start incorporating what is pretty clearly fetish material in the form of health restoring child piss I am gonna side eye you forever. I love Berserk but I think it probably deserves harsher criticism around this stuff then it even gets. I'll admit I'm entirely unfamiliar with any of the other work he has ever done. I read through the entirety of Berserk in a handful of days though and just thought it was a masterpiece.
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Aug 19, 2022 01:18
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I think one of his other works is the reason why a new Berserk thread was started, but the less said about that the better.
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Aug 19, 2022 03:14
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LordMune posted:We, including you, were discussing the Eclipse. If you think Miura didn't deliberately adopt a pornographic perspective for shock value I don't know what to tell you. I did not think that scene was pornographic, that's a pretty weird take away from it imo
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Aug 19, 2022 07:04
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Bisse posted:The Casca rape is extremely super bad and the #1 reason that I and my friends who have watched it don't recommend Berserk to other people. Interesting that you use Game of Thrones, as the show is worse than Berserk in depicting abuse. The show has Sansa getting raped as a character swap that adds absolutely nothing to anyone's arcs, ruins Littlefingers entire character by making him a giant idiot, and is just there to be cruel. It's known as one of the worst changes from the books and more evidence the showrunners have no idea what to do when not directly adapting things. I never saw the Caska thing as "pornographic," but I think a big part of that was that I think the anime (both) frames it differently than the manga by showing more of it, for lack of better term. There's a difference in timing and such between watching and reading.
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Aug 19, 2022 12:55
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Darko posted:I never saw the Caska thing as "pornographic," but I think a big part of that was that I think the anime (both) frames it differently than the manga by showing more of it, for lack of better term. There's a difference in timing and such between watching and reading. There's an inherent difference in format, because you can easily read the manga at your own pace, but there are over fifteen pages showing that sequence and the panels are quite sexually explicit.
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Aug 19, 2022 14:55
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As I understand it, there are several layers to this conversation. On a surface level, and by default, I don't think any author should be limited in telling the sort of stories they want to, even ones invoking uncomfortable subject matter (depiction is not endorsement). However, when engaging with difficult topics, the author owes their audience a measure of respect and restraint, insofar as there are unpleasant elements which can enhance a story...but also detract from it when applied poorly, or with mixed priorities. Violence is a part of life, a part of the human condition, as is sexual violence. It's an unfortunate state of affairs but, historically speaking, them's the breaks. But you know, taking a dump is also part of the human experience, and I can't say I've read too many books prominently featuring people going to the bathroom (please do not recommend me books about people going to the bathroom), so clearly there is some cut-off point past which grim and gritty authors, allegedly eager to illustrate reality through the lens of fiction, have largely decided not to tread. But of course, you might call that a false comparison. What could depicting a bowel movement possibly add to a story? Well, assuming you could think of something, you might include it; otherwise, I imagine you wouldn't. Similarly, when a story employs sexual violence, what is the net result? What is gained? Further complicating things is the ubiquity of sexual violence. An animated show in which characters decimate whole cities (and presumably their inhabitants) by concentrating all their power into energy blasts will often find itself with a lower age rating than another animated show in which one character, one time, fires a gun into another character. The scale is considerably smaller, more infrequent, yet it's graded more harshly. Why? Because it's real. Energy blasts are pure fantasy. No child watching cartoons will ever be able to summon up their inner reserves of martial prowess and throw a Street Fighter fireball, but dad's gun is in the closet, not even locked. The fact that it's something so close and present to our modern experience puts us more on edge. Likewise, a lot of the good ol' fashion regular violence in Berserk is ancient history to us, or similarly fantastic. We haven't had to swing swords at each other for centuries, and to my knowledge no member of the Catholic inquisition ever turned out to be a demonic slug cannibal. This distance softens our reactions to what's being depicted, even as entrails stain the ground. There are people who still live in fear of violence, of course, but not this specific brand of violence. Media depicting firearms faces far more scrutiny from media watchdogs than almost any inclusion of sword and sorcery. But rape is not so ancient. As the oft-cited statistic says, 1 in 6 women in the U.S. will be preyed up in this manner, unsuccessfully or otherwise (and of course men are also victimized, albeit in smaller numbers). Sexual violence feels more real, more transgressive, even as we watch action movies where mooks get shot and stabbed and blown up, because it's closer to our lived experience, or that of those we care for. This alone does not render it off limits for storytelling, but it presents a kind of responsibility to handle with care. In this respect, Miura's decision to include sexual violence in his work wasn't strictly unnecessary: Berserk's world is one at war, where such things happen, and all three of its main characters (and a few of its side characters) are introduced as victims (first), and their pain is taken seriously and used for characterization and growth. Guts, Casca, and Griffith were each preyed upon in different ways in their respective backstories, carried that trauma with them, and were able to grow beyond it. To a lesser degree, Farnese is another such character, defined in her case by an unhealthy sexual fixation that results in self-harm and the hurting of others. She, too, grows past this. And arguably, yes, the horrors of the Eclipse serve a particular purpose in how it draws the curtain on the Golden Age, a vile act that destroys all three characters involved. But just because some of Berserk's depictions of sexual violence contribute to the arc of the plot and characters doesn't mean all of them do, nor that those which are narratively significant are without issue. I agree with the posters in this thread who claim the rape during the Eclipse was a meaningful event, in and of itself, but I also agree with the posters who felt it was framed in an exploitative manner. Casca being reduced to a mute invalid is trickier to reconcile, made a little fairer by her recovery from her flashback assault, and the fact that Griffith's literally a demonic entity now, made a little worse by how it grinds her characterization to a halt, and the fact that Griffith only hurt her to hurt Guts; not that that never happens either, but that's a larger conversation I literally couldn't have less time for. Then you have everything else, much of which is frankly juvenile and functions as little better than cheap shock value to "Hype" up how terrifying the villains are. Wyald is the classic call-out, but even Ganishka (who I'd normally argue is a well-conceived, well-executed villain, with a pinch of pathos even) does edgelord nonsense like holding women captive over a pit of crocodiles, employing the least effective method of producing future generations of soldiers from captured women ever conceived (impractical even as a scare tactic, its secondary purpose). By that point it's so ridiculous you stop taking it seriously at all. Even if the purpose was to invoke disgust and contempt from the reader (and I do believe characters like Wyald and Ganishka were intended to invoke both disgust and contempt), the sheer saturation and extremes depicted rob it of any "Gravitas" one might attempt to apply to Miura's "Unflinching depiction of the horrors of war." Yes, bad things happen in war. Even things comparable to this. But presentation matters. Context matters. It's pulp, not pain. Same for the evil horse. Same for the trolls. The Tower of Conviction incorporates sexuality with a touch more thematic weight and narrative purpose, but also gets bogged down in the name of pulpy sensationalism. I first discovered Berserk in college, which was some time ago. I wouldn't say I was more forgiving of Miura's excesses then so much as I simply compartmentalized the bits I didn't care for and skimmed past them (something I imagine many of us have done at one or more points in our lives, consuming fiction we love except for that one part we always remember when someone asks if we'd recommend it). Depictions of rape and molestation and sexualized self-harm have their place as story elements when employed with consideration, and I've read stories that approached these topics with tact, but in aggregate I'd call Miura's attempts to do so sloppy at best, and yes, pornographic at worst. I would much prefer the alternate universe iteration of Berserk where Miura showed more restraint in this area.
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Aug 19, 2022 17:37
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Good post. I know I started this discussion and I haven't been responding as much, but I don't really have much more to add than what I've already said.
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Aug 19, 2022 18:05
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Darko posted:Interesting that you use Game of Thrones, as the show is worse than Berserk in depicting abuse. The show has Sansa getting raped as a character swap that adds absolutely nothing to anyone's arcs, ruins Littlefingers entire character by making him a giant idiot, and is just there to be cruel.
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Aug 19, 2022 18:49
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Bisse posted:Hmm I stopped watching around Season 5, so never saw or heard of this. It sounds also dumb and bad! TBH the Jaime/Cersei rape scene by Joffrey's dead body was probably the worst one and that was in season 4
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Aug 19, 2022 19:09
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I mean Berserk always had a problem where Casca is more a prop than anything and honestly this development doesn’t do much against that
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Aug 19, 2022 20:30
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The reduction of nearly every female character in HBO's Game of Thrones from season 4 onward is a whole other discussion of hosed up and misguided writing/direction/intent. Outside of Brienne nearly every female character is reduced down to a single trait to the point where if they show any outside trait it feels like an undeserved attempt to claw back to when these characters were interesting and dynamic. But as bad as Jaime raping Cersei over their son's corpse is, I think the worst is in Season 8 when Benioff and Weiss write an insulting scene where Sansa tells the Hound that getting raped by Ramsay Bolton made her a better person by becoming a ruthless ice queen who doesn't emote and projects authority through brutal violence. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Aug 19, 2022 |
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Aug 19, 2022 20:36
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I legitimately don't remember that conversation. Not that I don't believe you, I'm just amazed that somehow season 8 was so forgettable that I zoomed right past that bit.
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Aug 19, 2022 20:43
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsw6h5z1nuo It's bad, see.
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Aug 19, 2022 20:47
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Berserk may have problems but let's not equate it with Game of Thrones, jesus
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Aug 19, 2022 20:50
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edit: honestly taking it back cuz didnt get the context of the comparison
Shindragon fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Aug 19, 2022 |
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Aug 19, 2022 20:53
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