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How are u posted:Am I just reading your posts wrong or were you implying that the only enforcement mechanism you can envision involves violence? I assure you you're reading it wrong, where in the hell am I mentioning violence what in God's name is going on here, what are you trying to do
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Aug 19, 2022 23:49
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How are u posted:Am I just reading your posts wrong or were you implying that the only enforcement mechanism you can envision involves violence?
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Aug 19, 2022 23:49
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Okay, maybe you really actually do not know what legislative enforcement is Like, I actually do believe you now is this because this is the first time you've seen the term "teeth" in the context of statutes or constitutional law Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Aug 19, 2022 |
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Aug 19, 2022 23:49
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Potato Salad posted:I assure you you're reading it wrong, where in the hell am I mentioning violence What did you mean by quote:I'm still trying to figure out how to respond to "What does accountability/enforcement look like to you?" while remaining within the rules of posting on SA. then? I'm genuinely confused as to what you're trying to say here, apologies. e: if you're talking about legislative enforcement with legal 'teeth' then that's perfectly fine to post about on this website? who is saying otherwise?? I have done so myself, in this very thread.
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Aug 19, 2022 23:52
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you need to get out of the habit of trying to read behind somebody's intent, because it is not serving you well SA generally demands that I engage people in good faith and with content brought to the table. After several days, I decided that I ought to acknowledge that you asked me a question about what enforcement looks like to me, but that I just don't know how to start or if it's worth anything yeah my intent with the "born yesterday" comment was mean and I didn't need to do that, I'm sorry edit: besides, it looks like all that anybody wants to talk about is revolution or no revolution Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Aug 19, 2022 |
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Aug 19, 2022 23:53
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Potato Salad posted:edit: besides, it looks like all that anybody wants to talk about is revolution or no revolution There will be no revolution. Revolutions require self-discipline and the acceptance of privation. Leftists are mostly unable to even give up paying for sentient beings to be bred, tortured and killed in greenhouse gas factories. How can such people be expected to win a revolution?
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Aug 20, 2022 00:00
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Enjoy posted:There will be no revolution. Revolutions require self-discipline and the acceptance of privation. Leftists are mostly unable to even give up paying for sentient beings to be bred, tortured and killed in greenhouse gas factories. How can such people be expected to win a revolution?
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Aug 20, 2022 00:06
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Enjoy posted:There will be no revolution. Revolutions require self-discipline and the acceptance of privation. Leftists are mostly unable to even give up paying for sentient beings to be bred, tortured and killed in greenhouse gas factories. How can such people be expected to win a revolution? Can't tell if this is a bit--and I have no stake in this revolution or no revolution thing--but a lot of VMI graduates said very similar things to this right before dying on unnamed hillsides in the middle of the 19th century
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Aug 20, 2022 00:11
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And revolutions are massive gambles to begin with. Sometimes there's massive progress, but sometimes after several massive swings the revolution ends one-half step ahead of where it started, I'm looking at you France. And other times things go wildly off track and the country ends up as a theocracy.
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Aug 20, 2022 00:52
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Potato Salad posted:We're going to pretend not to know what legislative enforcement mechanisms--teeth--historically look like? What background on subversion of legislative goals can be presumed to already be in scope, none? Why didn't you just say this instead of getting indignant about being asked in the first place? e: also I assumed you meant revolution and violence because you literally said SA's rules prevented you from talking about your solutions. This is dnd, if you want to talk about legislative teeth and how things should be enforced, that's explicitly what this subforum is for. What on earth gave you the impression that was outlawed? Professor Beetus fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Aug 20, 2022 |
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Aug 20, 2022 00:52
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How are u posted:Am I just reading your posts wrong or were you implying that the only enforcement mechanism you can envision involves violence? how do you suggest we enforce legislation without the violence of the state? e: i read potato's point that the IRA's enforcement mechanisms do next to nothing to ensure it will not be subverted by regulatory capture, to say nothing of perverse incentive. This is more of a structural criticism of our government as a whole than the IRA specifically, the unequal share of the franchise between the hoi polloi and the capitalists makes such occurances nearly inevitable e2: in other news https://twitter.com/GoodPoliticGuy/status/1560280240856997888 im sure 125 degree days will have no devastating knockon effects! A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Aug 20, 2022 |
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Aug 20, 2022 03:25
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cat botherer posted:Just because people don't share your moral framework doesn't mean they can't be effective leftists. (I'm vegan FWIW) If you just reply "Yes, everyone should be vegans" it effectively removes Enjoy from the conversation and rarely changes much about one's actual position on the topic at hand.
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Aug 20, 2022 04:22
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Enjoy posted:Do you think it will be easier to make the argument to ban red meat if a larger proportion of the population have already stopped eating it? You know your chart is per kg right? As in root vegetables to rice is a ballpark per kg of reduction than meat to rice (not counting that cows are used for more than just meat or milk). How much rice do you think is eaten in the world compared to the amount of red meat? If the climate is really your priority and that the best solution is to attack people for what they eat, put away your feelings on animals and get on board with telling the worlds population that is consuming half a billion tonnes of rice a year that they need to change to spud. As you say, each time they eat the unborn young of grass, they're choosing to add more greenhouse gases to the atmosphere when there are plenty of alternatives available. And if you think the worlds periphery don't eat or use animal products or that it would be a good idea for those to blanket swap to supplements and alternatives, then you have probably not spent much time in those places. Interesting that if you follow the source, the main one "Poore, J., & Nemecek, T. (2018)" was a research paper on how targeting certain producers would have an outsize impact (with presumably no end user impact) on climate change. Changing types of rice grown and flooding practice reduce CO2 equ without reducing yields for example. We already mentioned supplementing cattle feed but there is plenty of things getting researched/develeloped/done that are reducing the climate impact without changing quality of life or attacking people personally (and counterproductively to the goal of getting all on board with climate change!). How bad is it really that nut and shay butter farms with undergrazing dairy beef supplemented seaweed and then at end of life is used from tail to moo (because that is how cattle are raised in Burkina Faso right now minus the supplement, with the supplement, it would probably be negative CO2 equ because they would use poisons to control growth under trees and find alternative tractors etc for plowing fields, etc).
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Aug 20, 2022 10:57
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Electric Wrigglies posted:You know your chart is per kg right? As in root vegetables to rice is a ballpark per kg of reduction than meat to rice (not counting that cows are used for more than just meat or milk). Electric Wrigglies posted:How much rice do you think is eaten in the world compared to the amount of red meat? Electric Wrigglies posted:If the climate is really your priority and that the best solution is to attack people for what they eat, put away your feelings on animals and get on board with telling the worlds population that is consuming half a billion tonnes of rice a year that they need to change to spud. As you say, each time they eat the unborn young of grass, they're choosing to add more greenhouse gases to the atmosphere when there are plenty of alternatives available. Electric Wrigglies posted:And if you think the worlds periphery don't eat or use animal products or that it would be a good idea for those to blanket swap to supplements and alternatives, then you have probably not spent much time in those places. Electric Wrigglies posted:Interesting that if you follow the source, the main one "Poore, J., & Nemecek, T. (2018)" was a research paper on how targeting certain producers would have an outsize impact (with presumably no end user impact) on climate change. Changing types of rice grown and flooding practice reduce CO2 equ without reducing yields for example. We already mentioned supplementing cattle feed but there is plenty of things getting researched/develeloped/done that are reducing the climate impact without changing quality of life or attacking people personally (and counterproductively to the goal of getting all on board with climate change!). Yes lets continue to do one of the single most destructive things for the environment, because it might become less destructive in the future!
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Aug 20, 2022 17:10
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If you want to make it an effort post about veganism I'd love to engage in a thread about how we treat animals but our individual consumption choices are fundamentally meaningless to solving the climate change problem. Because of scales and orders of magnitude and the like
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Aug 20, 2022 18:00
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Seems like a rounding error compared to just replacing all electrical generation with nuclear, we should do that instead instead and worry about these mandates with zero enforcement mechanisms directed specifically at posters here. How does rice compared to the electrical consumption and material construction and delivery of what makes posting on the internet possible after all?
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Aug 20, 2022 18:22
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Actual leftist parties can barely get 1% of the population to show up at their local school and spend 5 minutes voting for them once every 4 years. How in the loving world do people think that leftists will somehow carry the day in a revolution?
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Aug 20, 2022 18:25
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:Actual leftist parties can barely get 1% of the population to show up at their local school and spend 5 minutes voting for them once every 4 years. How in the loving world do people think that leftists will somehow carry the day in a revolution? Wrong thread? Vegetarianism and veganism isn't 1:1 a leftist thing, most I know eat meat and a lot of the granola vegans and vetegarians I knew over the years became RETVRN facists, it's actually very common in new age movements edit - it's certainly not a thing anybody is ever going to be allowed to vote on
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Aug 20, 2022 18:28
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:Actual leftist parties can barely get 1% of the population to show up at their local school and spend 5 minutes voting for them once every 4 years. How in the loving world do people think that leftists will somehow carry the day in a revolution? We don't think that's going to happen until the current world order is obviously unsustainable to even the man on the street. At that point everything is up for grabs! Shame about the countless deaths that will come with such circumstances
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Aug 20, 2022 19:01
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Countless deaths seems pretty inevitable at this point, but that's why every single bit of climate action taken today pays off in fewer deaths in the future. As much as we can, as quickly as we can.
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Aug 20, 2022 20:24
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A big flaming stink posted:We don't think that's going to happen until the current world order is obviously unsustainable to even the man on the street. At that point everything is up for grabs! Shame about the countless deaths that will come with such circumstances I'm far more pessimistic. I think when the *western* world gets to this point, the enslavement of the third world to sustain the unsustainable will only become more overt. Never underestimate the evils that can and will be done in the name of the comfort of the few over the many.
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Aug 20, 2022 21:24
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Enjoy posted:Yeah meat is two orders of magnitude higher than root vegetables and one order of magnitude higher than rice. That means meat should be the target, not rice. uh, so if we can ignore rice over spud because meat is worse then rice than I am relieved. They fly strawberries fresh picked from New Zealand to Scotland for some Saudi Prince (evidently a standing budget of 2 million UK pounds per year) at probably an order of magnitude of CO2 per kg than meat, so until they tackle that, I feel smug in saying that meat is a non-event. TL DR you are consistently inconsistent in trying to talk about climate change because you don't give a gently caress about climate change, you hate meat eaters and the climate change emergency looks like a great vehicle for you to push you moralistic barrow. Which was my original point. Go open a thread about how you hate meat eaters and theory craft ways of effecting mechanisms on how to reduce animal slaughter (hint, putting in place laws to control weight will actually do a heap of heaving lifting for you without you even having to ban meat or even really talk about it) and leave climate emergency talk to people that are interested in it for its own sake.
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Aug 20, 2022 21:37
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I think at this point time travel is our best bet - going back and convincing all religions that coal, oil, and natural gas are the souls of sinners (shouldn't be a hard sell since they're all deep underground where Hell is, don'tcha know) and disturbing them will drat everyone to die a slow and miserable death. I mean, it's only a HALF-lie when you think about it.
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Aug 20, 2022 22:21
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BIG HEADLINE posted:I think at this point time travel is our best bet - going back and convincing all religions that coal, oil, and natural gas are the souls of sinners (shouldn't be a hard sell since they're all deep underground where Hell is, don'tcha know) and disturbing them will drat everyone to die a slow and miserable death. I mean I get that we should've transitioned to carbon-free power long ago but these sources were kind of necessary or we would've murdered all the whales at the very least.
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Aug 20, 2022 22:41
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mobby_6kl posted:And then everyone will die a slow miserable death anyway? Using your own logic, all the whales are going to die anyway - either when the oceans boil them alive or the anoxic conditions kill all their food sources.
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Aug 20, 2022 22:59
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A big flaming stink posted:
Judging by how earlier predictions were widely off the mark, we'll probably see these temperatures 1 or 2 decades earlier
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Aug 20, 2022 23:03
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BIG HEADLINE posted:Using your own logic, all the whales are going to die anyway - either when the oceans boil them alive or the anoxic conditions kill all their food sources. Without coal or oil, we'd have what, only wood to burn? I get that coal is bad but it and other energy sources are necessary to advance civilization and without them we'd probably never get solar or wind turbines. Maybe you see living in permanent subsistence farming society sounds nice to you but that's not something I see as beneficial.
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Aug 20, 2022 23:27
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No, in my dream world we'd have gone with something other than "burn the witch" when solar power started up in its most nascent forms in the late 19th century.
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Aug 20, 2022 23:55
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Folks when we say we need an all of the above approach to climate change we mean all of the above https://twitter.com/newyorker/status/1561151862816079873?s=21&t=cw-DOfvK74x2mstQj-f1IQ
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Aug 21, 2022 02:26
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Electric Wrigglies posted:uh, so if we can ignore rice over spud because meat is worse then rice than I am relieved. They fly strawberries fresh picked from New Zealand to Scotland for some Saudi Prince (evidently a standing budget of 2 million UK pounds per year) at probably an order of magnitude of CO2 per kg than meat, so until they tackle that, I feel smug in saying that meat is a non-event. Animal agriculture is putting out twice as much greenhouse gas... https://www.fao.org/publications/card/en/c/CB7033EN/ quote:Production-based GHG emissions from plant-based food amount to 5,109 ± 1,436 TgCO 2 eq yr−1 ...despite only giving humanity a fifth of its calories and a third of its protein: https://ourworldindata.org/global-land-for-agriculture quote:In 2013, the global average per capita energy availability from vegetal products was 2370 kilocalories per person per day, and 514kcal from animal products. Animal products therefore accounted for [514 / (514 + 2370) * 100] = 18% of the world’s calories. It's no surprise that plant food like rice is more efficient in terms of greenhouse gas emissions, giving off 1.2kg of CO2 equivalent per thousand calories, while dairy is five times that and red meat between ten and thirty times as much Basically go vegan or stop posting
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Aug 21, 2022 06:59
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Enjoy posted:Basically go vegan or stop posting Sure but it's still less than 6% of emissions. We can't reasonably get rid of all of it. There's good reason why subsidence farmers in underdeveloped regions all have a few pigs, goats or chickens - it's an efficient use of household waste. We could limit it but it would never be a 6% emission reduction. The main emission culprits are buildings and road transport. In industry it's steel and cement. In agriculture I'd hazard that it's synthetic fertilizer and the whole sector would instantly become greener if green hydrogen could replace grey hydrogen.
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Aug 21, 2022 07:31
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Owling Howl posted:Sure but it's still less than 6% of emissions. We can't reasonably get rid of all of it. There's good reason why subsidence farmers in underdeveloped regions all have a few pigs, goats or chickens - it's an efficient use of household waste. We could limit it but it would never be a 6% emission reduction. The 2021 FAO study says its 21% (57% of the 37% of agriculture emissions)
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Aug 21, 2022 08:04
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Enjoy posted:The 2021 FAO study says its 21% (57% of the 37% of agriculture emissions) Well you posted ourworldindata as a source so that's what I used. So ourworldindata says agriculture is responsible for 18% of emissions and the FAO study says 37%. What is going on with your sources? Which should we rely on and why?
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Aug 21, 2022 08:35
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Owling Howl posted:Well you posted ourworldindata as a source so that's what I used. You should rely on the newer source
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Aug 21, 2022 08:37
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Enjoy posted:Animal agriculture is putting out twice as much greenhouse gas... So now because you looked a tool on beef with your own sources, you have decided to shift goalposts and quote all animal agriculture and different sources. A wise owl has looked into those sources and found issues with your new angle of course but it saves me doing it. If you cared about the climate, you would not be so hell bent on driving the vegan line which alienates progress on making changes for climate change. Forcing the Indonesia people to change from rice to spud would have a dramatic effect but it would be a disaster for climate change promotion, what does work is research on rice paddy cultivation which reduces climate impact dramatically without dropping the quality of life for the people we need on board to support those changes. Basically post about climate change without pushing a separate barrow or stop posting.
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Aug 21, 2022 11:04
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    it's very very funny to me how much people tell on themselves by getting heated about this subject beyond all others and out of all proportion--like, your lil' treatsies are gonna have to be marginally less meaty in the future, it's nbd, chill "you're ALIENATING me  " lol you have done that to yourself by warmly embracing CAFO, that poo poo was never gonna last forever!(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 21, 2022 17:00
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Industrial meat production has been a disaster, no argument. Meat is too important of a part of too many cultures to go away completely. Instead, we should aim for de-industrializing meat production, with meat going back to its former place throughout agricultural history of being a very small part of people's diet. With the price of beef going through the loving roof as conditions degrade, people's meat consumption will naturally slow down. It would be a lot better to get ahead of further damage by forcing the meat industry to pay for their negative externalities, but lol that won't ever happen.
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Aug 21, 2022 17:15
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No one said anything about not changing CAFO. Only that insistence on Veganism is counterproductive and obviously not climate-focused. Our treatment of animals isn't all or nothing. Being an rear end in a top hat does actually alienate people. So if you are an rear end in a top hat, we can't be sure that you sincerely poo poo about the issue more than you care about getting your lulz being an rear end in a top hat to us. 
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Aug 21, 2022 17:21
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Harold Fjord posted:No one said anything about not changing CAFO. Only that insistence on Veganism is counterproductive and obviously not climate-focused. Our treatment of animals isn't all or nothing. Even if I'd picked veganism as "a bit" to annoy people with, that wouldn't make me wrong about the facts.
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Aug 21, 2022 17:39
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Enjoy posted:Even if I'd picked veganism as "a bit" to annoy people with, that wouldn't make me wrong about the facts. Do you have a good source for the necessity of cutting out, say, eggs? As HookedOnChthonics's post shows, it's easy to lay out for people the disproportionate environmental impact of eating beef. But I've found it harder to marshal evidence for arguing that other restrictions of veganism are also environmentally necessary.
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Aug 21, 2022 17:47
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