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Arc Hammer posted:But as bad as Jaime raping Cersei over their son's corpse is, I think the worst is in Season 8 when Benioff and Weiss write an insulting scene where Sansa tells the Hound that getting raped by Ramsay Bolton made her a better person by becoming a ruthless ice queen who doesn't emote and projects authority through brutal violence. They did Sansa dirty more than Dany which is saying a lot.
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Aug 19, 2022 21:14
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Bad Seafood posted:, and the fact that Griffith only hurt her to hurt Guts; Great post, the only thing I think I disagree with is this. Griffith does that to hurt Guts, but he also does it to hurt Casca. He knows that she pined for him for a long time and finally actually wants to be with Guts. It's the conversation he overhears before he throws himself out of the cart and finds the behelit to start the Eclipse. Her rejection of a future with him is as much a reason for him giving up his humanity as it is Guts walking his own path (they're the same concept at different moments). As much as it was about showing Guts he's gotten one over on him, he's also doing it to hurt Casca by undoing her expectations and image of him with an act that their relationship starts with she never expected to face from him of all people. The story def frames it as being directed towards Guts with Femto leering at him throughout it, but I think that sequence is really about all 3 of them even if the strong visual dynamic is about Griffith and Guts. I don't think Casca is quite as sidelined as a piece of Griffiths descent in that sequence. He certainly isn't doing that to reduce her horror of the event, but to make sure she feels it in the most horribly possible way. I really feel like her being sidelined in I guess what I'd call the middle section of the story (Golden Age is kinda part 1, Part 2 was everything up to her revival i figured, and now we're in the climax arc), shouldn't be used as a reason to devalue her character in the golden age and her role in the relationship between Guts and Griffith. It just sucks that a good character got left to be nothing really for so long when Miura likely was capable of something better given his general ability to craft the relationship stories that weave and grow through the narrative. Also rescue arcs kinda suck, the tower of conviction is an important part of the story, but its also my least favorite to revisit.
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Aug 19, 2022 22:31
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LordMune posted:Berserk may have problems but let's not equate it with Game of Thrones, jesus They share some narrative similarities in the Golden Age with a giant thing shocking people Red Wedding/Eclipse ans changing the series. Thats where they diverge, though in any feel or similarities. And yeah, the show completely messes up the minute it leaves GRRMs writings in S5 (woo boy Sand Snakes) with the writing for every woman except maybe Cersei getting absolutely embarrassing. Darko fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Aug 19, 2022 |
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Aug 19, 2022 23:44
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Darko posted:They share some narrative similarities in the Golden Age with a giant thing shocking people Red Wedding/Eclipse ans changing the series. Thats where they diverge, though in any feel or similarities. Nah Cersei is still bad but in the opposite way where she creates a forcefield of stupid that acts as plot armour where her doing the same asinine poo poo in the books is what causes her downfall.
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Aug 20, 2022 00:17
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I've always viewed Casca's regression into a toddler's mental state as the result of Guts effectively abandoning her. She's traumatized in the immediate aftermath of the Eclipse, but she does not display any toddler-like behavior before Guts leaves. We only see that after Guts returns two years later. The man she loves choosing to walk out on the path of revenge when she needed his love and support was another trauma on top of witnessing comrades being massacred and her rape. Which sunk her deeper into her own psyche. LordMune posted:...except in this chapter, where we also see him. Give it a re-read! Oh so he is.
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Aug 20, 2022 11:47
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Be careful. Some posters may feel unable to honestly participate in this conversation. It may be best to move on.Mraagvpeine posted:I think one of his other works is the reason why a new Berserk thread was started, but the less said about that the better. Posts need to invite conversation from all thread members. Some may have skipped these pages. Others may have been fine reading them as younger adults, but no longer. For the topic of rape in Berserk, it's clear that readers had different reactions and hold different opinions thematically and artistically, but this is not the thread for a debate of what constitutes "pornographic" or "abusive".
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Aug 20, 2022 15:01
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OhFunny posted:I've always viewed Casca's regression into a toddler's mental state as the result of Guts effectively abandoning her. She's traumatized in the immediate aftermath of the Eclipse, but she does not display any toddler-like behavior before Guts leaves. The overall story is about Guts, even moreso than Griffith who's missing for two whole arcs, so it didn't feel (to me) like Casca is written out. Lost Children is so focused on Guts that everyone is written out. The party starts to grow again in Tower and, in the later half, Casca is integral and frequently participates in the story because of the Holy See witch burning thing. The entire engagement with Mozgus occurs because Casca is there and Guts is trying to rescue her. What feels more out of place to me is Casca's apparent responsiveness to the astral plane and evil in Tower. It felt like Miura tried to build her as a true witch-like character and gave up, switching entirely to Schierke. In Tower, Casca is shown to both attract and effortlessly survive encounters with excess, astral evil, but that power just disappears? A dozen chapters later the group is just non-chalantly falling into traps until the "inexperienced little Schierke" finally speaks up when something is out of place. Instead she has two lightning rods right there that are just... no longer working? So no, I blame Tower for writing Casca out of the story. She becomes an active paranormal agent but instead of using her skills of survival as character development, it all just drops with a thud?
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Aug 20, 2022 15:27
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PhantomOfTheCopier posted:
This feels like an arbitrary line to draw when I would allege that that Muiras depiction of sexual trauma and assault is pretty clearly and directly influenced by a history of drawn pornographic works that fetishized the material in question. Like I know people really don’t want to think about this stuff especially in relationship to a work I think most of us think is some kind of masterpiece, but I really don’t know what the upshot of pretending that this dude was not into some really very exploitative hentai and it got into his work.
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Aug 20, 2022 17:03
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I hope we get some scenes of Casca making lives hell for the neo Hawks in captivity. Straight up loving them up and them being able to do nothing about it as she's under Griffith's protection.
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Aug 22, 2022 08:03
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I agree with most of the criticism of the sexual violence and especially with how Casca goes from a fascinating counterpoint to Guts in the early golden age stuff to an actual honest to god friend to Guts in the latter golden age stuff, to a mere prop following the eclipse. It sucks, it's lazy, and Miura was capable of better. That said, I'm not sure I understand how the rape during the eclipse can be singled out as pornographic. Of course it's pornographic! Berserk's illustrations are gorgeous and thoughtful, but they also teeter on the edge of self-parody at all times. Consider all the excessive, gratuitous violence that pervades the story both before and after the eclipse. Consider the insane hypermasculine power fantasy that is Guts. How can anybody who reads Berserk and sees the size of Guts' sword not be expecting problematic depictions of sexual violence, and indeed, all kinds of violence? It seems bizarre to me to not admit that Berserk eroticizes violence, but also equally bizarre to pretend that the only time it is eroticizing violence in is when there are tits in the panel. Or that the only time it is problematic to eroticize violence is when there are tits in the panel. I think that the tension between Berserk as a sensitive, emotionally vulnerable examination of trauma and friendship and Berserk as an indulgent, juvenile power fantasy is part of its magnetism. It's the work of a deeply troubled dude just putting everything he cares about into his book which makes it both endearing and embarrassing, by turns disarmingly profound or hopelessly shallow, but (almost) never phony. It can transcend its trashbag edgelord aesthetic and really connect to people because of this quality of preciousness; you can imagine the sort of insecurities which produce an avatar as tacky as Guts, which makes it all the more moving when Guts lets his guard down. But naturally this means Miura has nowhere to hide; exposed, along with all of his nobler sentiments are his biases and baser desires. I don't think this excuses any of the degrading content in Berserk, but instead recognizes how those moments when Miura is telling on himself contribute to that unguarded quality that I think makes reading Berserk such a personal experience.
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Aug 22, 2022 17:25
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I don't have much to add that hasn't already been very well said. A current, anxious point, though, centers around whether or not Casca will even get to keep her agency now. The story has come a long way since her character was, debatably, mishandled and effectively erased. She's straight up owed a proper role, for a good long time. Bad Seafood posted:The Tower of Conviction incorporates sexuality with a touch more thematic weight and narrative purpose, but also gets bogged down in the name of pulpy sensationalism. It kind of worked. The biggest matter of that subject was the juxtaposition between the prostitutes and the cultists. The former were depicted fairly wholesomely, with everyone shown to be respectful and consenting (and Luca's getting to be a PoV character here for pivotal moments), and the latter grotesquely, with all involved completely bereft of dignity -- although it got pushed to almost nonsensical levels with how they were literally eating babies.
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Aug 23, 2022 00:02
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Whereas I could believe some heartfelt conversation between Casca and Guts, trying to face their issues as friends, it doesn't seem compelling as a solution for Casca and Griffith. Speaking at all for the remainder of the story before Griffith is "saved" would seem strange. In Tower, Casca was saved from the bubbling evil by the pre-egg-child. Assuming the same role now assigned to Griffith, that suggests his appearance was only to get Casca off the island before it was consumed, in this case by the apostles. Much like Flora's place in the woods, it doesn't seem like Griffith is around for the dirty work, only when he can show off his hair to the commoners and kings. After the island is gone, or even during that battle, will be a good time for the remaining Godhand to appear, namely to give Griffith some speech about how Casca needs to be chomped because of the brand blah blah, but that doesn't seem like something Griffith will ultimately accept so he may go out the way of the count. As filler and wrap up, though, it seems possible that Rickert/Slilat will show up at the island with an army, having tracked Griffith somehow or another. The band that remains plus the elves plus Skull Knight may be able to navigate-via-tree/folding to Falconia. If Griffith ends up opposing the Godhand to protect Casca, it could be a one-from-the-inside/one-from-the-outside type of thing with Griffith/Zodd and Guts/SkullKnight cutting off the fingers one by one. There's still an open question of who uses the Behelit, though we might get cheated and that will just be an epilogue (everything is saved, Godhand all gone, world normal, and puck is despairing about not being a king).
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Aug 23, 2022 02:41
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Honestly Luca and to a lesser extent Jerome and Nina are what make the Tower of Conviction arc work imo. Without them it would just be a bog standard rescue arc where Guts cuts through a bunch of demons to get the girl back but instead all the insane poo poo that happens is grounded by a group of camp followers just trying to navigate the absolutely hosed situation they're stuck in.
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Aug 23, 2022 02:46
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Sydin posted:Honestly Luca and to a lesser extent Jerome and Nina are what make the Tower of Conviction arc work imo. Without them it would just be a bog standard rescue arc where Guts cuts through a bunch of demons to get the girl back but instead all the insane poo poo that happens is grounded by a group of camp followers just trying to navigate the absolutely hosed situation they're stuck in. This is true, but not to discredit Mozgus. His archetype isn't unusual but he has a compelling villain formula: 1) He believes he's 100% good despite being 2) objectively 100% evil, and 3) is a weird fuckin dude in his own right. On the subject of Nina, I don't get why she gets hate from fans. She's cowardly, pathetic, and has practically zero moral compass, but that's the point. Her role in the story works. I freakin love the Conviction arc. The send-up of religious moralism vs. compassionate humanity is as hamfisted as it gets, but it fully complements the patently Berserk grim madness it all takes place in.
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Aug 23, 2022 06:21
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Mazed posted:On the subject of Nina, I don't get why she gets hate from fans. She's cowardly, pathetic, and has practically zero moral compass, but that's the point. Her role in the story works. If you'll allow me to be kind of a ponce - Nina's disliked because she does what most people would actually do given the situation she's in, and in a genre that largely deals in self-insert fantasy that tends to make the reader uncomfortable. Like yeah everybody wants to think they'd be the hero who'd stick their neck out like Luca to unconditionally help others, but realistically most people would fold quickly under the threat of torture or imprisonment or persecution to save themselves. Particularly if the ones they're trying to protect are just acquaintances rather than family. Likewise given how absolutely hopeless Nina's situation is coupled with the STD she picked up basically destroying her one way of making a living, it makes sense she fell in with a weird satanic sex cult that offered her escape and a sense of belonging despite it all. Nina legitimately stands out as one of the most genuinely human characters in Berserk in that she's just a normal person who absolutely buckles under extraordinary trauma.
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Aug 23, 2022 09:57
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The Notorious ZSB posted:Great post, the only thing I think I disagree with is this. Frankly, I don't feel like Griffith ever cared for any of the Hawks; not personally. He cared for them in aggregate, as soldiers - his soldiers - but I never got the sense he was particularly invested in anyone before Guts (nor after Guts; he dotes on Charlotte but she, too, is little more than a game piece). He recognized Casca for her skills as a commander, but otherwise I always felt like he was looking past her. Even when he finally sees her as she wishes he saw her, as a woman, it feels oddly impersonal. His short-lived fantasy of being taken care of by Casca in the countryside is about as white bread as it gets: in what way does the woman in his vision even remotely resemble Casca, beyond her appearance? I have no doubt Casca would've cared for Griffith, but his daydream reveals how little he understands her. Forced to abandon his dream, he copes by briefly imagining something more humble, before realizing this too would be impossible. I've read two of the most common straight male fantasies are 1.) fighting alongside one's brothers-in-arms, and 2.) being tenderly cared for by a woman you can feel vulnerable around. Griffith idealizes Casca as the latter, but only because she's a woman he happens to know, and its his own vulnerability he has in mind. It's not because she's Casca, specifically; he had numerous opportunities to acknowledge her feelings, to do her the service of freeing her heart, or explaining to her why they're incompatible (he needs a princess, after all). The only time he ever acknowledges her feelings is when they happen to overlap with his own desires. Any woman would've done, just Casca was the one who was there. But then there's Guts. Griffith fixates on Guts like no one else. He wants Guts (people often joke or speculate in a sexual way), he "Belongs" to him. I somehow can't see him fretting over any other member of the Hawk disbanding. Guts made him "Forget" his dream, and losing Guts was what hastened his destruction. To see Guts again, after he left: what did he leave for anyway? Did he even have a dream? Did he leave for nothing? Did he ruin Griffith's life over nothing? But no, he has something. He has Casca, and she has him. The passing fantasy he briefly entertained himself with...was all Guts ever really wanted all along (to his eyes, at least). So when the time comes to take revenge on Guts - and it is Guts he's thinking about before he accepts the Godhand's offer - Casca is once again useful to him, as the best way to hurt his former friend. If it'd just been Casca, and Guts was already dead or nowhere to be found, I feel pretty strongly he would've simply killed her and moved on. Sex has always been linked with obtaining power for Griffith, and he already had power over Casca; Guts was the one thing eluding his grasp, so he punished Guts by punishing the one person with power over him: Casca. In my opinion, Casca was always an object to him. Lucasar posted:That said, I'm not sure I understand how the rape during the eclipse can be singled out as pornographic. Of course it's pornographic! Berserk's illustrations are gorgeous and thoughtful, but they also teeter on the edge of self-parody at all times. Consider all the excessive, gratuitous violence that pervades the story both before and after the eclipse. Consider the insane hypermasculine power fantasy that is Guts. How can anybody who reads Berserk and sees the size of Guts' sword not be expecting problematic depictions of sexual violence, and indeed, all kinds of violence? It seems bizarre to me to not admit that Berserk eroticizes violence, but also equally bizarre to pretend that the only time it is eroticizing violence in is when there are tits in the panel. Or that the only time it is problematic to eroticize violence is when there are tits in the panel. Mazed posted:This is true, but not to discredit Mozgus. His archetype isn't unusual but he has a compelling villain formula: 1) He believes he's 100% good despite being 2) objectively 100% evil, and 3) is a weird fuckin dude in his own right. Bad Seafood fucked around with this message at 11:03 on Aug 23, 2022 |
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Aug 23, 2022 10:54
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Sydin posted:If you'll allow me to be kind of a ponce - Nina's disliked because she does what most people would actually do given the situation she's in, and in a genre that largely deals in self-insert fantasy that tends to make the reader uncomfortable. Like yeah everybody wants to think they'd be the hero who'd stick their neck out like Luca to unconditionally help others, but realistically most people would fold quickly under the threat of torture or imprisonment or persecution to save themselves. Particularly if the ones they're trying to protect are just acquaintances rather than family. Likewise given how absolutely hopeless Nina's situation is coupled with the STD she picked up basically destroying her one way of making a living, it makes sense she fell in with a weird satanic sex cult that offered her escape and a sense of belonging despite it all. This nails it. Nina is lame in a way that real people are lame. We probably all know someone who's like this, and it's possible that that someone is ourselves.
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Aug 23, 2022 16:25
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Bad Seafood posted:thoughtful words I get what you're saying Bad Seafood, I don't think I totally agree, but I appreciate that point of view on it. I think that Casca is the only other member of the Band Griffith had any attachment to. I think that piece being there makes the sequence more powerful and hurtful. It's way more about Guts than Casca, I agree it's the smaller part compared to what he feels about Guts. In the same way coming to steal her doesn't feel like its just about loving with Guts. I don't think she quite fits in with the rest of the Band in regards to the "never cared about them really" approach by his character. It's a part of why I don't think he will see Rickert coming, Griffith is this huge player in Rickert's life, but to Griffith he's beneath notice, poo poo he wasn't even a sacrifice. Griffith's focus is solely on Guts and Casca, the sacrifices that got away. The Notorious ZSB fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Aug 24, 2022 |
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Aug 24, 2022 00:42
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Mazed posted:This nails it. Nina is lame in a way that real people are lame. We probably all know someone who's like this, and it's possible that that someone is ourselves. Nina's story also mirrors Guts' and Griffith's in that she both kills and sacrifices someone else in order to survive. She pushes her lover off a cliff when she feels he is going to rat out the cult, and she gives up Casca as the witch while shes being tortured.
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Sep 6, 2022 22:30
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Early scanlation is out once again not a lot of dialogue this chapter, just visual storytelling, but drat Guts holding onto his sword like that hit pretty hard. Probably the page I like the most so far in these recent chapters
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Sep 8, 2022 00:17
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Aw man. This one really hurts. Edit: I STILL BELIEVE IN YOU GUTS. Kart Barfunkel fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Sep 8, 2022 |
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Sep 8, 2022 00:53
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puck better not be dead i swear to god
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Sep 8, 2022 05:32
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That last page 
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Sep 8, 2022 12:26
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Josuke Higashikata posted:puck better not be dead i swear to god I found some of it hard to follow, but if this was the disappearance of the world tree, did they all just go back to their plane, or were they sucked away somewhere, perhaps to become Griffiths prisoners? At this point, it sure seems like quite a boat trip to the mainland, but maybe Rickert will show up and save the day with a steamboat or something. Still, there's a bit of determination in the final panel before he drops his hand, but is that defeat, resignation, or resolve? Guts learned he "can't land a single blow", so will he abandon his sword? The Behelit seems very useful at this point; I'm kinda surprised they didn't give a glimpse of it as teaser. (Not a spoiler since it happened in the previous chapter) but what options does Guts even have? He can't approach Griffith physically, even with magic in the sword. It seems like he either makes a bargain ("set Casca free, let the apostles chomp me") or becomes a god ("who says these Godhand need to get along, I'll become one and point at Griffith and laugh at his hair"). This really makes me think the aim is a reconciliation to the point of Griffith, Casca, and Guts teaming up to take down the Godhand, maybe with some Rickert buy-in. With the right fifth member, they might end up being the replacement Godhand.
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Sep 9, 2022 00:25
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Honestly might be the biggest gut punch Berserk has delivered in a VERY long time, at least for me. Everything Guts had been working towards since the Tower of Conviction just got snatched away from him in one fell swoop. Even his smoldering revenge for Griffith just got splashed with cold water in the fact that he can't even physically hurt Griffith. This is Guts lowest low since the Eclipse itself. 
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Sep 9, 2022 01:06
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PhantomOfTheCopier posted:Puck was around before the planes crossed, as was Shierke and the evil goop, but then why would the others disappear? It seems like Puck and maybe even Shierke's earth powers would be gone. Did it take the magic from Guts sword as well? Guts is not going to reconcile with Griffith are you loving insane
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Sep 9, 2022 01:17
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Sep 9, 2022 02:09
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Pretty much echoing everyone’s sentiments. What a goddamn gut punch. It sorta reminds me what the armor said to him… cant help but think Gutts will do anything to take down Griffith, even possibly use the armor again.
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Sep 9, 2022 15:41
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A month before the next chapter? Wtf Also is that magic leaving the world, wouldn't that apply to his sword and armor too?
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Sep 9, 2022 16:18
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Man I doubt it's actually the dude's FAULT but everything since Holyland Guy started has been miserable Is loving PUCK dead now??? If half humans are just turning to dust he and Ivarella should have too.
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Sep 9, 2022 18:48
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Rody One Half posted:Man This was always going to be. Everything up to now was the wind up. Here's the pitch.
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Sep 9, 2022 18:50
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losing puck would be an insane twist. man 
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Sep 9, 2022 19:56
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Brutal chapter. I also found it a bit hard to follow and I didn't quite understand if the magical beings have died or just disappeared from the material plane or what, hope the next chapter offers some clarification. If something happens to Puck...
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Sep 9, 2022 20:13
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PhantomOfTheCopier posted:
Regardless of anything else, you do not reconcile with your abuser.
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Sep 9, 2022 20:40
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My take is the fairy tale creatures native to this island and its surrounding waters cannot remain in this layer of reality. They're still alive, they just can't interact with the material plane any longer. I doubt this affects all creatures everywhere, however: Griffith needs to keep up the illusion back home that his is the only safe kingdom. Don't know what this means for Puck (if he disappeared, that'd be truly wild), but seeing Isma vanish made me sad. Poor Guts though, dude can't catch a break. Seeing him cling to his sword like a kid again...geez. PhantomOfTheCopier posted:(Not a spoiler since it happened in the previous chapter) but what options does Guts even have? He can't approach Griffith physically, even with magic in the sword. It seems like he either makes a bargain ("set Casca free, let the apostles chomp me") or becomes a god ("who says these Godhand need to get along, I'll become one and point at Griffith and laugh at his hair").
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Sep 9, 2022 23:24
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GreenBuckanneer posted:Regardless of anything else, you do not reconcile with your abuser.  Guts either has to become Griffith to defeat him (rampage, back to going berserk, destroying everything) or follow his own path (which is what, challenging him to a fair fight?). I'm not seeing much speculation on how this plays out. But I'd ask, if Behelits activate with despair, who in the world has the most despair at this moment?
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Sep 9, 2022 23:54
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Behelits aren't activated by despair, they activate when they're supposed to (which always coincides with the user's peak despair). That is hasn't activated here means either Guts will never trigger it or he still hasn't reached his lowest point.
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Sep 9, 2022 23:58
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I believe it's been firmly established that it belongs to Puck, thank you.
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Sep 9, 2022 23:59
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I have a Lost Children Arc question: I’ve picked up Deluxe 6 after a short break from the last volume so forgive me if it was established earlier, but to whom did the behelit belong to, the one Skull Knight pulled from the burned out tree in the misty valley and swallowed? Also regarding the newest chapter We definitely saw all of Puck’s cousins snapped away. I can only assume Puck left with them.
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Sep 10, 2022 00:16
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Kart Barfunkel posted:I have a Lost Children Arc question: I’ve picked up Deluxe 6 after a short break from the last volume so forgive me if it was established earlier, but to whom did the behelit belong to, the one Skull Knight pulled from the burned out tree in the misty valley and swallowed? That was most likely Rosey's. Skull Knight was going around and collecting them from dead Apostles, either the ones he killed or the ones Guts killed. Puck might, MIGHT, be the only one to remain due to how much of the outside world he's been exposed to and how much he personally has changed due to it. That's what I'm currently thinking. His close relationship to Guts might keep him within the material world.
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Sep 10, 2022 01:06
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