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Randarkman posted:Whatever it is you are trying to say about people like Applebaum being cold warriors or whatever, no one in the West "chose Putin", nor did anyone outside Russia. The west decided that rightist nationalism was the solution to the USSR and exalted people like Solzhenitsyn. They helped Yeltsin at every turn.
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Sep 12, 2022 12:15
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FishBulbia posted:The west decided that rightist nationalism was the solution to the USSR and exalted people like Solzhenitsyn. They helped Yeltsin at every turn. I fail to see how this conversation adds to the discussion or current events of the war.
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Sep 12, 2022 12:21
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cinci zoo sniper posted:I fail to see how this conversation adds to the discussion or current events of the war. While it can be ignored, I don't think people should be allowed to just fling implied bullshit and not be challenged on it, or at least that the posts that can spawn such discussions are warned off before anyone answers if possible.
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Sep 12, 2022 12:41
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orcane posted:It wasn't even a week, it took all of two days It's pretty fun read if you haven't seen it yet. Here's a sample quote:...
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Sep 12, 2022 12:46
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, I think you mean this guy:
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Randarkman posted:While it can be ignored, I don't think people should be allowed to just fling implied bullshit and not be challenged on it, or at least that the posts that can spawn such discussions are warned off before anyone answers if possible. To the majority of posts, I prefer to give the benefit of doubt, that they’ll figure out to stop on their own to not cause an excessive and lengthy discussion. I have no plans for changing this approach, especially given that I warned them on their second post on the topic.
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Sep 12, 2022 12:48
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Rust Martialis posted:That might be Ukrainian, not seeing the colors I expect on a RuAF jet Looking really closely and disclaimer: It's really blurry, but the colors of the tail seem to match, and there is this weird red blotch that shows up on RuAF-jets, at least going by Russian jet pictures I've randomly googled. The way it looks, it seems the jet started losing parts while passing the observer, so it's probably a maintenance-issue that caused the crash. Libluini fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Sep 12, 2022 |
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Sep 12, 2022 13:22
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Randarkman posted:While it can be ignored, I don't think people should be allowed to just fling implied bullshit and not be challenged on it, or at least that the posts that can spawn such discussions are warned off before anyone answers if possible. It's not "implied bullshit" that nationalists took over the republics. You know what the Russian flag is, right? "The Ukraine will be an extremely painful problem. But we must realize that the feelings of the whole people are now at white heat. Since the two peoples have not succeeded over the centuries in living harmoniously, it is up to us to show sense. We must leave the decision to the Ukrainians themselves — let federalists and separatists try their persuasions. Not to give way would be fool- hardy and cruel. And the gentler, the more tolerant, the more careful to explain ourselves we are now, the more hope there will be of restoring unity in the future. Let them live their own lives, let them see how it works. They will soon find that not all problems are solved by secession." "The provocative outcry about "genocide" only began to take shape decades later - at first quietly, inside spiteful, anti-Russian, chauvinistic minds - and now it has spun off into the government circles of modern-day Ukraine, who have thus outdone even the wild inventions of Bolshevik agitprop. To the parliaments of the world: This vicious defamation is easy to insinuate into Western minds. They have never understood our history: You can sell them any old fairy tale, even one as mindless as this." I wonder where Putin got his material for is speech in February? I wonder what someone like Applebaum thinks of that person? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) FishBulbia fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Sep 12, 2022 |
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Sep 12, 2022 13:25
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The Lone Badger posted:If you're riding an APC how do you communicate to the driver that you just saw something and they need to stop/drive faster/do donuts right loving now? If the vehicle commander is out if the hatch you can yell. Helmets used by vehicle crews have active noise cancelation headphones and which have hear-through that let's you hear human voices and maintain some situational awareness. It's similar technology to what you get in a nice headset today, except the US military had it 25 years ago. Or someone in the back wears a vehicle helmet with headset and you just use the intercom. GhostofJohnMuir posted:i would assume you'd use a radio Usually not, at least when I was in. The new squad radios are small enough and presumably have good enough batteries that you might do that today, though. I've noticed hearing protection--a lot of hooch has audio capability - - seems to be really common in this war. It reminds me of how eye protection became ubiquitous in the early 2000s. FishBulbia - Stop "wondering". It smacks of "just asking questions.". If you have an argument to make, even if it's argument - by-assertion--then make it.
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Sep 12, 2022 13:32
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There's been a consistent dot on the FIRMs map south of Odessa for the last few days and I'm curious as to what it might be.... Seems to have started around the 8th (if I'm using the site features properly  ). I can't remember seeing any articles or discussion, and it appears to be getting more severe ( more dots and more recent when you zoom in) Any clues?Edit: there was a rig fire some weeks ago if I recall... did it flare up again? Cable Guy fucked around with this message at 13:48 on Sep 12, 2022 |
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Sep 12, 2022 13:40
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FIRMS fire: https://firms.modaps.eosdis.nasa.gov/map/#d:24hrs;@30.9,45.6,9z Boyko towers https://www.offshore-energy.biz/after-missiles-hit-black-sea-platforms-reports-indicate-fire-still-burning/ Located about 70 kilometres south of Odesa, the three platforms (BK-1, BK-2, and BK-3) are situated at the Odeske gas field on the continental shelf of the Black Sea. After being discovered in 2009, the field was developed by Chornomornaftogaz, a subsidiary of Ukraine’s state-owned energy company, Naftogaz. After Russia annexed the Crimea Peninsula in 2014, the platforms were seized by the Russian-backed regime in Crimea. In an interview with TSN, Oleg Zhdanov, a military expert, described the Boyko towers as “military installations” and “ears and eyes of the Russian Black Sea Fleet,” adding that “radar stations and maritime radars were placed on these towers, which gave the Russian Federation the opportunity to control the entire Black Sea area along our coast.” Zhdanov further stated that the strike on these offshore platforms “deprived the Russian fleet of the ability to control the Black Sea.” Sentinel 1 satellite: https://apps.sentinel-hub.com/eo-br...3D=%22MAPZEN%22 RBA-Wintrow fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Sep 12, 2022 |
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Sep 12, 2022 14:18
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gay picnic defence posted:You still see an awful lot of "this is entirely America's fault for trying to expand NATO" too. I genuinely don't understand the argument that NATO is an imminent threat to Russia. Russia has nukes. Nobody is interested in militarily challenging their territorial sovereignty outside their imperialist goings on. Admittedly it's a weak argument and not comparable but Mexico is in theory an unfriendly neighbor to the United States who could potentially challenge it's sovereignty over Texas even though doing so would mean a massive military response and potential nuclear defense for limited gains.  invade invade invade!!
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Sep 12, 2022 14:35
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https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1569286506929442826 https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1569241576223944705
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Sep 12, 2022 14:35
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Nelson Mandingo posted:I genuinely don't understand the argument that NATO is an imminent threat to Russia. Russia has nukes. Nobody is interested in militarily challenging their territorial sovereignty outside their imperialist goings on. Admittedly it's a weak argument and not comparable but Mexico is in theory an unfriendly neighbor to the United States who could potentially challenge it's sovereignty over Texas even though doing so would mean a massive military response and potential nuclear defense for limited gains. The issue is that Russia's view of its territorial sovereignty somewhat overlaps the national borders of other countries, including NATO countries.
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Sep 12, 2022 14:39
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RBA-Wintrow posted:FIRMS fire: Were there new strikes, or did they just go boom again?
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Sep 12, 2022 14:41
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Nelson Mandingo posted:I genuinely don't understand the argument that NATO is an imminent threat to Russia. Russia has nukes. Nobody is interested in militarily challenging their territorial sovereignty outside their imperialist goings on. Admittedly it's a weak argument and not comparable but Mexico is in theory an unfriendly neighbor to the United States who could potentially challenge it's sovereignty over Texas even though doing so would mean a massive military response and potential nuclear defense for limited gains. Is an argument made entirely in bad faith
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Sep 12, 2022 14:41
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evilweasel posted:The issue is that Russia's view of its territorial sovereignty somewhat overlaps the national borders of other countries, including NATO countries. Well, I don't see Poland giving up any territory, so Russia will have to decide whether or not it wants to be happy or unhappy.
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Sep 12, 2022 14:42
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Next in line for "the talk"?
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Sep 12, 2022 14:46
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Cable Guy posted:Ok... it's definitely them, but the article is about the strikes in June and they've been absent from FIRMS maps in the interim until just a few days ago... Maybe they’re burning off gas since they’re not piping it to Europe anymore. No idea about how those rigs are connected up but I remember a story from a week or two ago about Russia burning off excess gas.
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Sep 12, 2022 14:46
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Girkin’s conclusion that what we need is more civilian strikes is questionable, but I do like his turn of phrase with the “Kremlin inhabitants of the Planet of Pink Ponies.” He’s really going all-in on the idea that the Kremlin doesn’t know what it’s doing. Leaving anything else aside I’m genuinely curious if he personally believes the war can actually still be won or if he’s just pandering to his base about how wise and far-seeing he is as a leader unlike the Kremlin.
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Sep 12, 2022 14:47
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Nelson Mandingo posted:I genuinely don't understand the argument that NATO is an imminent threat to Russia. Russia has nukes. Nobody is interested in militarily challenging their territorial sovereignty outside their imperialist goings on. Admittedly it's a weak argument and not comparable but Mexico is in theory an unfriendly neighbor to the United States who could potentially challenge it's sovereignty over Texas even though doing so would mean a massive military response and potential nuclear defense for limited gains. The retort is that NATO now holding Ukraine will give it a base for a nuclear decapitation strike of Moscow which is totally a plausible thing. Never mind the Baltic states are like the exact same distance and the whole Russia has nuclear subs and a land area that is Russia sized.
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Sep 12, 2022 14:50
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deathbysnusnu posted:The retort is that NATO now holding Ukraine will give it a base for a nuclear decapitation strike of Moscow which is totally a plausible thing. Never mind the Baltic states are like the exact same distance and the whole Russia has nuclear subs and a land area that is Russia sized. Or that this theoretical decapitation strike could simply be launched from Colorado. I understand that you don't want your enemies to have bases near your borders because that makes you easier to invade. But the baltics already exist and I don't forsee NATO or any other military invading Russia unless they specifically accounted for all of their nuclear weapons hidden and otherwise and destroyed them all at once. And that's not realistic.
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Sep 12, 2022 14:55
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Or that their response to Finland joining wasn't to invade them immediately to neutralize this deadly threat... but to shuffle a few missiles around and release a firm statement about it.
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Sep 12, 2022 14:58
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Like poo poo sometimes an imperialist land grab is exactly that.
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Sep 12, 2022 15:00
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Nelson Mandingo posted:I genuinely don't understand the argument that NATO is an imminent threat to Russia. Russia has nukes. Nobody is interested in militarily challenging their territorial sovereignty outside their imperialist goings on. Admittedly it's a weak argument and not comparable but Mexico is in theory an unfriendly neighbor to the United States who could potentially challenge it's sovereignty over Texas even though doing so would mean a massive military response and potential nuclear defense for limited gains. Cuba would be a closer equivalent, USA got really spicy when the friendly dictator was overthrown there and things then escalated to the edge of nuclear war because US leaders thought that they had the right to put missiles in Turkey but Soviet missiles in Cuba would be a threat to world peace. Although I wouldn't compare them too hard because the situations of USA and Russia were quite different. USA in the 1960's was a superpower protecting what it felt was its established sphere of influence against a rising competitor, whereas Russia in 2014 was still recovering from the collapse of the old empire. Putin tried to re-establish Russian empire first through soft measures i.e. Eurasian Economic Union, but when Euromaidan seemed to threaten that plan, he went for hard measures. Cuba in itself was never THAT important for anyone in the States.
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Sep 12, 2022 15:01
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Ynglaur posted:Well, I don't see Poland giving up any territory, so Russia will have to decide whether or not it wants to be happy or unhappy. What if Putin made a deal with Germany and Austria? It has worked so many times before! (Some people really seem to believe that you can just partition a common neighbour in anno domini 2022, remember that map of Ukraine divided between Russia, Poland and Hungary?)
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Sep 12, 2022 15:07
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Nenonen posted:Cuba would be a closer equivalent, USA got really spicy when the friendly dictator was overthrown there and things then escalated to the edge of nuclear war because US leaders thought that they had the right to put missiles in Turkey but Soviet missiles in Cuba would be a threat to world peace. Although I wouldn't compare them too hard because the situations of USA and Russia were quite different. USA in the 1960's was a superpower protecting what it felt was its established sphere of influence against a rising competitor, whereas Russia in 2014 was still recovering from the collapse of the old empire. Putin tried to re-establish Russian empire first through soft measures i.e. Eurasian Economic Union, but when Euromaidan seemed to threaten that plan, he went for hard measures. Cuba in itself was never THAT important for anyone in the States. This is a fantastic point and I'm genuinely kicking myself for missing the parallel.
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Sep 12, 2022 15:13
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In many ways, the philosophy behind Russia's actions is very Trumpian. "Purchase Greenland" or "take Iraq's oil" would have been very normal in the 19th century, but nowadays it will get you weird looks.
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Sep 12, 2022 15:13
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Nenonen posted:In many ways, the philosophy behind Russia's actions is very Trumpian. "Purchase Greenland" or "take Iraq's oil" would have been very normal in the 19th century, but nowadays it will get you weird looks. It's just the aesthetics of neoliberal empire though, you can still do all that stuff you just have to funnel it through a obfuscatory veil of shell companies and allow all the courtiers to wet their beaks a little
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Sep 12, 2022 15:18
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Libluini posted:Looking really closely and disclaimer: It's really blurry, but the colors of the tail seem to match, and there is this weird red blotch that shows up on RuAF-jets, at least going by Russian jet pictures I've randomly googled. The top post in r/aviation said redditor posted:This is quite interesting. I don't know anything about planes though so no idea how valid/invalid this is
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Sep 12, 2022 15:18
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On Lyman: https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1569317635887702021?s=20&t=HBX-kOb2bdYonXuNuAlqjg
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Sep 12, 2022 15:21
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nvm
Charlotte Hornets fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Sep 12, 2022 |
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Sep 12, 2022 15:29
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nvm
RBA-Wintrow fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Sep 12, 2022 |
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Sep 12, 2022 15:30
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Nenonen posted:Cuba would be a closer equivalent, USA got really spicy when the friendly dictator was overthrown there and things then escalated to the edge of nuclear war because US leaders thought that they had the right to put missiles in Turkey but Soviet missiles in Cuba would be a threat to world peace. Although I wouldn't compare them too hard because the situations of USA and Russia were quite different. USA in the 1960's was a superpower protecting what it felt was its established sphere of influence against a rising competitor, whereas Russia in 2014 was still recovering from the collapse of the old empire. Putin tried to re-establish Russian empire first through soft measures i.e. Eurasian Economic Union, but when Euromaidan seemed to threaten that plan, he went for hard measures. Cuba in itself was never THAT important for anyone in the States. On the other hand, though, it isn’t the ‘60s anymore whether politically or technologically. I’m not entirely up on Cold War tech, but wasn’t part of the reason why Cuba/Turkey mattered because given the tech available at the time, it was one of the few ways one could hypothetically launch a successful first strike that precluded retaliation? Which given nuclear submarines and mobile launchers isn’t really the case anymore and nobody seriously believes in the possibility of a successful first strike, thus making missiles in Ukraine a bit of a pointless exercise?
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Sep 12, 2022 15:31
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https://twitter.com/papandopoolo/status/1569277595274838016?s=20&t=hJ3r8lg9HASL0diNlSRvqw Images from Ukraine's capture of Syvatohirsk (should be SFW despite the Twitter warning)
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Sep 12, 2022 15:33
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Tomn posted:On the other hand, though, it isn’t the ‘60s anymore whether politically or technologically. I’m not entirely up on Cold War tech, but wasn’t part of the reason why Cuba/Turkey mattered because given the tech available at the time, it was one of the few ways one could hypothetically launch a successful first strike that precluded retaliation? Which given nuclear submarines and mobile launchers isn’t really the case anymore and nobody seriously believes in the possibility of a successful first strike, thus making missiles in Ukraine a bit of a pointless exercise? Yeah, it isn't that much of a factor anymore. It matters for short and medium range missiles and bombs but we have ICBMs and nuclear submarines now. There is a new factor of antimissle defense, but that is no where near enough to deal with more than a handful of missles. MegaZeroX fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Sep 12, 2022 |
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Sep 12, 2022 15:36
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Nenonen posted:In many ways, the philosophy behind Russia's actions is very Trumpian. "Purchase Greenland" or "take Iraq's oil" would have been very normal in the 19th century, but nowadays it will get you weird looks. No one is giving China and the US wierd looks over their confrontation in East Asia. Great power politics will be great power politics till the end of time or until human beings breed out the tribalist mechanical instincts out of their mind. It is pointless trying to "understand" Putin/Russia's motivation if you inherently reject the existence of this way of thinking. We have talked about it in circles over and over again itt.
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Sep 12, 2022 15:36
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No nuke chat, please.
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Sep 12, 2022 15:38
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mobby_6kl posted:Wasn't that the tankie rhetoric from day 1 of the war, immediately after "don't be silly russia would never invade" of course. Now just more desperate of course. In 20 years you'll be watching some 15 year old making a very impassioned speech on Internet 3.0 about how evil the CIA was to overthrow the Ukrainian government, how Zelenksy was a US puppet and Ukraine invaded Russia first. And a bunch of other 15 tear olds will be nodding in agreement. And now matter how much you explain to them that is not what happened and you have very clear memory of it and there is a mountain of evidence disproving their assertions they'll just respond with "That is what they want you to think".
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Sep 12, 2022 15:39
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MegaZeroX posted:https://twitter.com/papandopoolo/status/1569277595274838016?s=20&t=hJ3r8lg9HASL0diNlSRvqw Yeah was just about to post another one from there, it doesnt look like UKR are stopping does it? https://twitter.com/Liveuamap/status/1569330882514767882
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Sep 12, 2022 15:40
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Tomn posted:On the other hand, though, it isn’t the ‘60s anymore whether politically or technologically. I’m not entirely up on Cold War tech, but wasn’t part of the reason why Cuba/Turkey mattered because given the tech available at the time, it was one of the few ways one could hypothetically launch a successful first strike that precluded retaliation? Which given nuclear submarines and mobile launchers isn’t really the case anymore and nobody seriously believes in the possibility of a successful first strike, thus making missiles in Ukraine a bit of a pointless exercise? Sure, but even before a single Soviet missile was sent to Cuba, USA had tried training Cuban exiles and sending them to launch a counter-revolution, as well as CIA planning to assassinate Castro. The missile crisis was the culmination point of a conflict that had started earlier.
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Sep 12, 2022 15:42
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