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Shinjobi posted:I do wonder if Vegeta had chosen not to go oozaru if he would just....won, cleanly. He nearly lost an eye, and while he had incapacitated Goku by stomping his legs, Goku's body was barely held together after the Kaioken x4. Pretty real chance with the amount of fight Vegeta still had left in him that he could have finished Goku off without the transformation. He definitely could have, remember he burned through a lot of energy to make his bootleg moon to begin with, it was that and all the other poo poo mentioned that left him burned out. If he could sense energy or didn’t break his scouter (though I guess it might’ve broken in combat anyway) he would have known the fight was done.
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Sep 18, 2022 19:44
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Also it was the moon and his spiking power that alerted Krillin and Gohan.
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Sep 18, 2022 20:28
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Things were never the same after Frieza. It was paint-by-numbers after that.
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Sep 18, 2022 20:44
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ZogrimAteMyHamster posted:Things were never the same after Frieza. It was paint-by-numbers after that. I can't really agree with that at all. The Cell Saga was flawed but it sure as hell wasn't predictable. It involves time travel, constantly shifting villains, and Gohan winning instead of Goku with (seemingly) Goku genuinely staying dead. The Buu Saga's first half is similarly all kinds of wild and it's only the Super Buu stuff that trends into predictable. Everything involving Fat Buu feels at least distinctive. "Mr. Satan befriends bubble gum devil" isn't easily predictable.
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Sep 18, 2022 20:47
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ImpAtom posted:I can't really agree with that at all. The Cell Saga was flawed but it sure as hell wasn't predictable. It involves time travel, constantly shifting villains, and Gohan winning instead of Goku with (seemingly) Goku genuinely staying dead. Piccolo Jr Saga up through the absorption of Android 17 is the best run of Dragonball, for me. The plots are twisty, it's not the Goku show all the time, I love it. Perfect Cell is flawed but fine, and Buu is... Buu, but it's all generally fine.
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Sep 18, 2022 20:51
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Super Saiyan had no drawback unlike Kaioken and that was when and why things started to be less exciting and incredible
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Sep 18, 2022 21:47
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Yeah Toryiama doesn’t really care enough to make a by the numbers story. It’s whatever pops in his head. Which does explain the Buu saga I feel
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Sep 18, 2022 21:58
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KAIOKEN: “HAAAAAA! This is my trump card technique GOD KING FIST, a divine technique I learned while dead, which will multiply my power incredibly but my loving heart might explode, or my ki permanently damaged from the gargantuan stress of a divine technique being pushed way past its limits! I gotta go to TIMES FOUR, COSTING MY LIFE TO BE JUST STRONG ENOUGH TO OVERCOME!!!!” ME: “Higher. More. More multipliers. I want to see your goddamn spine blow out of your rear end. YES.” SUPER SAIYAN: “Ohhhh I went too hard! I better drink a senzu smoothie and take a nap!” ME: “Where is the blood. Stop coughing up sweat.”
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Sep 18, 2022 22:10
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I mean Super Saiyan was relevant for 1.5 fights and then proceeded to do nothing but get the everliving poo poo kicked out of it for the rest of time unless the enemy was a joke.
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Sep 18, 2022 22:12
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There's two specific points where I'd say Buu Saga really starts to dip, Super Buu breaking out the absorption trick(particularly that he uses it three loving times in a row to get rid of an opponent that would have been a more interesting one to fight than Goku and Vegeta), and the other being Kid Buu in his entirety, like I think we can all agree that Kid Buu is the least interesting main villain in the entirety of the franchise besides maybe Hirudegarn(if we count stuff like movies and games), he's just a mindless berserker who does nothing but punch, scream, and blow poo poo up and not even in particularly interesting ways either
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Sep 18, 2022 22:31
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Super Saiyan is a less interesting technique than Kaioken but is a better story beat especially in its first appearance. Kaioken is something you learn while Super Saiyan is something you unlock through major emotional moments. And Krillin's death leading to Goku unleashing some hidden power through his rage and his love for his best buddy is some good poo poo. drrockso20 posted:There's two specific points where I'd say Buu Saga really starts to dip, Super Buu breaking out the absorption trick(particularly that he uses it three loving times in a row to get rid of an opponent that would have been a more interesting one to fight than Goku and Vegeta), and the other being Kid Buu in his entirety, like I think we can all agree that Kid Buu is the least interesting main villain in the entirety of the franchise besides maybe Hirudegarn(if we count stuff like movies and games), he's just a mindless berserker who does nothing but punch, scream, and blow poo poo up and not even in particularly interesting ways either Kid Buu's a great fight imo. First fight since Frieza to really go against the formula of what big Dragonball fights had become. Frieza, Cell and Super Buu are all fights based around the heroes and villains alternating sudden powerups or new forms to create a big back and forth battle until someone's newest form finally puts the other guy away. That's not the case with Kid Buu because after Vegeto, the good guys don't got any more power ups. It's also got a good finale to Vegeta's deal and Mr Satan leading all of Earth to come together to lend energy to the spirit bomb (especially with all the cameos) is very good.
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Sep 18, 2022 22:58
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drrockso20 posted:he's just a mindless berserker who does nothing but punch, scream, and blow poo poo up and not even in particularly interesting ways either disagree on this point, the actual fight with him is incredibly cool and the chaotic way he fights is really unique for the series.
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Sep 18, 2022 23:02
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Yeah I would say Super Buu is the least interesting. His main attacks are kind of boring, and he steals techniques. Which Cell already did
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Sep 18, 2022 23:10
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I grew up watching bootlegs of the DBZ movies before I saw the show and Super Saiyan was so amazing that it was extremely jarring to see them get chumped for the first time by the androids. Aside from the ugly animation, the Vegeta saga battle did indeed own.
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Sep 18, 2022 23:24
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Shinjobi posted:I do wonder if Vegeta had chosen not to go oozaru if he would just....won, cleanly. He nearly lost an eye, and while he had incapacitated Goku by stomping his legs, Goku's body was barely held together after the Kaioken x4. Pretty real chance with the amount of fight Vegeta still had left in him that he could have finished Goku off without the transformation. Probably, but Vegeta had no way of knowing that. He didn't notice that Goku's technique was self-destructive - he just knew that in a head-to-head power-against-power match, he not only lost but got blasted halfway to the stratosphere. Goku had just been getting stronger and stronger as the fight went on, and he had no idea where Goku's limit was. And unlike post-Frieza Vegeta, he wasn't even slightly excited about fighting strong dudes. Vegeta's first appearance was in it to win it first and foremost, and to show his absolute superiority if the opportunity arose. He toyed around with the Earthlings only when they seemed overwhelmingly weaker than him. The moment Goku bloodied him even slightly, he was done with fighting fair.
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Sep 18, 2022 23:31
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iamsosmrt posted:Aside from the ugly animation, the Vegeta saga battle did indeed own. ???
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Sep 18, 2022 23:48
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Anyone who says the Kid Buu fight is boring does not remember the Kid Buu fight properly https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/31390 https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/75528 https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/137241 https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/161819 https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/161808 It is easily the best looking and most well coregraphed fight Z had outside of the movies, and even then it's a lot better than some of those (looking at you, lord slug and metal cooler) Blockhouse fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Sep 19, 2022 |
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Sep 19, 2022 00:09
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Kid Buu is way cooler than Super Buu. Felt like a breath of fresh air at the time
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Sep 19, 2022 00:13
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Shinjobi posted:I do wonder if Vegeta had chosen not to go oozaru if he would just....won, cleanly. He nearly lost an eye, and while he had incapacitated Goku by stomping his legs, Goku's body was barely held together after the Kaioken x4. Pretty real chance with the amount of fight Vegeta still had left in him that he could have finished Goku off without the transformation. People always say it would be a win for Vegeta even if he didn't use great ape, but it's not like Goku was really that done for. We don't know how much strength Vegeta had after taking the kamehameha, he still could had have eaten the spirit bomb (he hadn't seen the solar flare yet), and even though Goku took a couple of hits from oozaru vegeta (not exactly 10x strength but still a big multiplier) Goku was wasn't pasted and still managed to use kaioken another few times. So maybe, maybe not. Bushmaori fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Sep 19, 2022 |
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Sep 19, 2022 01:37
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I think some of my favorite Dragonball stuff is early Namek. Partly nostalgia, but also I like the kind of chaotic nature of how you have basically three factions each after the same goal and operating with imperfect knowledge, and the little shifting alliances and dramatic turns that happen.
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Sep 19, 2022 01:38
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:I think some of my favorite Dragonball stuff is early Namek. Partly nostalgia, but also I like the kind of chaotic nature of how you have basically three factions each after the same goal and operating with imperfect knowledge, and the little shifting alliances and dramatic turns that happen. This. This is why everything after the Namek/Frieza sagas just never reached that same level. It effectively became "Us vs Them" once Frieza was done, and has been ever since.
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Sep 19, 2022 01:49
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Tournament of Power was 11 factions.
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Sep 19, 2022 02:00
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Among its high points, Namek has the imo best "gokuwinslol" moment of the series when as previously mentioned gohan/krillin/vegeta are having to resort to any scumbag tactic they can just to stay alive against the ginyus, gohan's toddler neck gets broken, then goku walks out of the ship like the hand of god and just erases all of them. Then gets the same treatment from Frieza. E: well, recoome burter and jeice at least
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Sep 19, 2022 02:04
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Goku treating Recoome like a gag fight was hilarious, honestly.
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Sep 19, 2022 03:06
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Black August posted:Super Saiyan had no drawback unlike Kaioken and that was when and why things started to be less exciting and incredible To be fair, Kaioken has had a drawback exactly twice, and one of those was in Dragon Ball Super.
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Sep 19, 2022 03:18
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To be fair that’s just plain because Kaioken had a short run, it basically just gets used for the stretch between Goku v Nappa up until SSJ, it’s not like Solar Flare where it’s introduced back in Dragonball and the only way to no-sell it is to have Master Roshi nearby.
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Sep 19, 2022 03:27
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We should factor in that Super Saiyan just looks plain cooler than the Kaioken.
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Sep 19, 2022 03:32
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Funky Valentine posted:We should factor in that Super Saiyan just looks plain cooler than the Kaioken. ???
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Sep 19, 2022 03:38
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ZogrimAteMyHamster posted:This. This is why everything after the Namek/Frieza sagas just never reached that same level. It effectively became "Us vs Them" once Frieza was done, and has been ever since. cell and the androids?
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Sep 19, 2022 03:45
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Shinjobi posted:I do wonder if Vegeta had chosen not to go oozaru if he would just....won, cleanly. He nearly lost an eye, and while he had incapacitated Goku by stomping his legs, Goku's body was barely held together after the Kaioken x4. Pretty real chance with the amount of fight Vegeta still had left in him that he could have finished Goku off without the transformation. He might have, and that's what makes the fight so fun. Both the hero and the villain were throwing everything they had out there without really knowing what they're doing. It was a desperate struggle right up until the end.
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Sep 19, 2022 03:49
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Funky Valentine posted:We should factor in that Super Saiyan just looks plain cooler than the Kaioken. I like Super Saiyan 3 but my hot take is that regular Super Saiyan is kinda... meh? Like I remember my original reaction being fairly hype but also 'so his big transformation is that Goku turns into blonde Vegeta?' Like consider how radical all the prior transformations we'd seen were. While Frieza's second form is kind of a roid rage version of his first, all his other forms are basically completely new, if similar in some elements, character designs. Zarbon goes from bishie to beast. Saiyans turn into King Kong. Like every transformation in the series to that point was pretty drat dramatic in terms of how different it looked, and now this, the culmination of a literal ancient legend, is just a change in hair style and color. RoboChrist 9000 fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Sep 19, 2022 |
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Sep 19, 2022 04:02
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It’s slightly more than that, Goku’s entire face changes. I mean, that doesn’t exactly help the blonde Vegeta descriptions but that’s kinda the point, OG SSJ Goku’s entire personality changed which is why he just yells at Gohan to get the gently caress away before he loses control completely, and there’s a cold/ruthless vibe that goes beyond anything like, say, the other time Krillin died when he fought Tamborine/King Piccolo.
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Sep 19, 2022 04:11
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Oh yeah, no, I like the handling of Goku's personality - at least in that original transformation. I'm just saying more the visual design.
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Sep 19, 2022 04:15
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Kid Buu is fun and would've been a lot better had the arc just not dragged rear end so much to get there.
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Sep 19, 2022 04:23
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SSB + Kaioken is the best design just because Goku’s aura makes him look like a rocket pop.
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Sep 19, 2022 04:36
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Last Celebration posted:To be fair that’s just plain because Kaioken had a short run, it basically just gets used for the stretch between Goku v Nappa up until SSJ, it’s not like Solar Flare where it’s introduced back in Dragonball and the only way to no-sell it is to have Master Roshi nearby. Always did find it weird that Krillen, Tien, or Yamcha never tried learning the Kaio-Ken at some point, particularly during the several year gap between Trunks' first visit and the Androids showing up, at least from a Watsonian perspective that is, most of these kind of things in Dragon Ball have the rather simple Doylist explanations of either Editorial Interference or Toriyama's absolutely abysmal memory
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Sep 19, 2022 04:39
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drrockso20 posted:Always did find it weird that Krillen, Tien, or Yamcha never tried learning the Kaio-Ken at some point, particularly during the several year gap between Trunks' first visit and the Androids showing up, at least from a Watsonian perspective that is, most of these kind of things in Dragon Ball have the rather simple Doylist explanations of either Editorial Interference or Toriyama's absolutely abysmal memory Kaioken basically kills you if you overuse it. Goku csn get what he does out of it because he is a Saiyan and almost dying makes him stronger. Goku is just the right mix of crazy punch Man to make it work. Now instant transmission? Yeah that poo poo should be *abused*
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Sep 19, 2022 04:45
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hey you know couldnt Goku have also grabbed 18 after instant transmission-ing in to grab tenshinhan and piccolo? huh
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Sep 19, 2022 05:04
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No. She has no ki for him to lock onto and she already left at that point.
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Sep 19, 2022 05:08
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Blockhouse posted:Anyone who says the Kid Buu fight is boring does not remember the Kid Buu fight properly My roommate and I are rewatching the original Dragon Ball and it's crazy to see how this series started to where it is now.
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Sep 19, 2022 05:34
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