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There was a time period where DC comics really liked ripping people's arms off and clearly Horikoshi was inspired by it.
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Sep 26, 2022 16:27
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Nuebot posted:villain identity reveals that make no sense and were clearly intended to be something else entirely Dunno what this is describing, because Tobi was pretty obviously Obito from the beginning and the error was in making him the main villain and trying to misdirect for half a decade. Unless you're a believer in the "Pain was supposed to be Naruto's dad" theory that Dad For One was originally snowcloned from? Delphisage fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Sep 26, 2022 |
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Sep 26, 2022 21:30
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Delphisage posted:Dunno what this is describing, because Tobi was pretty obviously Obito from the beginning and the error was in making him the main villain and trying to misdirect for half a decade. Unless you're a believer in the "Pain was supposed to be Naruto's dad" theory that Dad For One was originally snowcloned from? In the popular series "Spiderman" there was a villain called "The Hobgoblin" who's identity was a big mystery set up for ages with several primary candidates that were heavily implied, hinted and teased. But due to drama and writers shifting behind the scenes at Marvel the big reveal of who it was kept changing as false identity after false identity was revealed, most of which were just "some guy" and "The twin brother of Some Guy".
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Sep 27, 2022 00:25
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Nuebot posted:In the popular series "Spiderman" there was a villain called "The Hobgoblin" who's identity was a big mystery set up for ages with several primary candidates that were heavily implied, hinted and teased. But due to drama and writers shifting behind the scenes at Marvel the big reveal of who it was kept changing as false identity after false identity was revealed, most of which were just "some guy" and "The twin brother of Some Guy". I already know there's plenty examples of this in Spiderman. I've read that Clone Saga expose. I was asking about examples of that from shonen manga, and the only thing I could think of that had anything close was Naruto.
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Sep 27, 2022 00:31
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Delphisage posted:I already know there's plenty examples of this in Spiderman. I've read that Clone Saga expose. It wasn't that long ago that compress compressed half his rear end, revealed he was the descendant of someone super important then hosed off and never came back as far as I can tell.
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Sep 27, 2022 02:47
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Nuebot posted:Overly angsty, meandering plotlines that go nowhere, villain identity reveals that make no sense and were clearly intended to be something else entirely, poo poo introduced years later solely to connect misplaced dots introduced into the story hodge-podge to try and keep waning readership up as plot threads floundered and failed all while no one had the decency to just end it years after it should have ended. I dunno, I'd say shonen manga is a lot like the clone saga! I think shounen stuff is generally easier to sum up, at least. It's a bit less...insular in its writing? Like Western comics seem to often be written solely for superfans who have been plugged into them for years (and are often further complicated through being connected to countless other comics, with there also being many separate iterations of the same characters and stories). "How to read Naruto and what is it about" is a question with a very simple answer, at least. I think the "shared universe between countless different cape comic franchises" is probably the biggest issue with those comics being approachable for non-fans.
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Sep 27, 2022 02:53
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Nuebot posted:It wasn't that long ago that compress compressed half his rear end, revealed he was the descendant of someone super important then hosed off and never came back as far as I can tell. It certainly makes no sense, but I doubt it was gonna be a different reveal. The crap is in how it's just thrown out there and then Compress disappears from the story. I could've sworn he had escaped with Shiggy, Dabi and Spinner,, but nope. Right into the bin of wasted characters alongside Geten, Redestro, Overhaul and... ...OHHHHHHH, now I've figured out a proper example - Kurogiri being Aizawa's best friend from UA Nomufied. That made no sense and came out of nowhere with no clear purpose besides Hori showing a lack of creativity. Man, what the hell is it with Hori and his fanboying for Obito? Doesn't he realize that Obito was the worst character in the entirety of Naruto? Yet here he goes making three or four characters that could be classified as Obito clones. Delphisage fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Sep 27, 2022 |
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Sep 27, 2022 03:04
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Nuebot posted:In the popular series "Spiderman" there was a villain called "The Hobgoblin" who's identity was a big mystery set up for ages with several primary candidates that were heavily implied, hinted and teased. But due to drama and writers shifting behind the scenes at Marvel the big reveal of who it was kept changing as false identity after false identity was revealed, most of which were just "some guy" and "The twin brother of Some Guy". It's a shame that Hobgoblin almost never gets used in any media outside of the comics since he's just "Green Goblin, but orange". Though the MCU could plausibly have him show up since Norman Osborn doesn't exist in that universe. Delphisage posted:Man, what the hell is it with Hori and his fanboying for Obito? Doesn't he realize that Obito was the worst character in the entirety of Naruto? Yet here he goes making three or four characters that could be classified as Obito clones. Well, he WAS the coolest guy.
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Sep 27, 2022 03:08
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Ytlaya posted:I think shounen stuff is generally easier to sum up, at least. It's a bit less...insular in its writing? Like Western comics seem to often be written solely for superfans who have been plugged into them for years (and are often further complicated through being connected to countless other comics, with there also being many separate iterations of the same characters and stories). "How to read Naruto and what is it about" is a question with a very simple answer, at least. It wasn't a problem back in the day. The thing is, back in the 60s, the assumption was that every comic was someone's first, so you got an opening page of Fantastic Four where Reed is stretching to grab a microscope slide from under the refrigerator Ben's lifting unaware that Johnny is about to give him a hot-foot while Sue shakes her head and sighs, half-invisible. Where you start was generally "the issue in your hand". But as Marvel comics got more successful, they began to be able to assume more reader knowledge in general, and the unknowns became a larger part of the appeal, causing intricate webs of crossovers to become more and more standard, and then when the market crashed in the 90s, all the same bad methods stuck around, creating an incestuous snarl of continuity where nothing matters. If you look at the MCU's success, huge audiences love to have a world where Spider-Man can team up with the Guardians of the Galaxy, but that doesn't mean they want to have to watch the Guardians to understand what happens with Spider-Man.
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Sep 27, 2022 03:11
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Kurogiri's deal makes more sense if you've read Vigilantes, which is still the better manga.
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Sep 27, 2022 03:11
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I tried American Comics once, in the 2000s Marvel launched a new Ultimates universe they promised wouldn't be so crossover/gimmick heavy, guess where that ended up.
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Sep 27, 2022 04:41
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socialsecurity posted:I tried American Comics once, in the 2000s Marvel launched a new Ultimates universe they promised wouldn't be so crossover/gimmick heavy, guess where that ended up. incest and mass death, if I remember correctly
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Sep 27, 2022 11:14
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Jen X posted:incest and mass death, if I remember correctly Was that the one where Dr. Doom cried over 9/11 or was that the regular universe?
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Sep 27, 2022 11:47
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Nuebot posted:Was that the one where Dr. Doom cried over 9/11 or was that the regular universe? Regular universe.
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Sep 27, 2022 12:07
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Everyone talks about doom crying in that comic but nobody remembers that it ends with spider man ominously promising that America will bring down hellfire and genocide on afghanistan
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Sep 27, 2022 14:49
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SKULL.GIF posted:Kurogiri's deal makes more sense if you've read Vigilantes, which is still the better manga. Another way it is like superhero comics
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Sep 27, 2022 16:45
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ImpAtom posted:Another way it is like superhero comics I have to wonder if the backstory was added just to make people read the spinoff.
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Sep 27, 2022 16:50
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No, I'm pretty sure it's just one of the many examples of Horikoshi having a list of cool plot ideas to potentially flesh out and make plot arcs out of, then later deciding that he wants to bring the manga to a conclusion rather than going forever, then deciding to speedrun down his entire list of potential cool plot points without giving them any of the time required to flesh them out. This isn't me just blanket making GBS threads on the manga, it's just really weird to me how many things that get tossed in and are treated as important but really aren't terribly relevant in any way. Kurogiri being a zombie, Compress's weirdly elaborate backstory, Nagant, etc. I really wonder why some of this stuff didn't just get left on the cutting room floor.
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Sep 27, 2022 21:20
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Kanos posted:I really wonder why some of this stuff didn't just get left on the cutting room floor. Gotta keep up with deadlines somehow, and throwing in random ideas for the sake of momentary angst is one way. Just look at how many chapters got eaten up by angst about Aoyama being the traitor that neither makes that much sense nor leads to anything.
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Sep 27, 2022 21:33
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Kanos posted:This isn't me just blanket making GBS threads on the manga, it's just really weird to me how many things that get tossed in and are treated as important but really aren't terribly relevant in any way. Kurogiri being a zombie, Compress's weirdly elaborate backstory, Nagant, etc. I really wonder why some of this stuff didn't just get left on the cutting room floor. Kurogiri is a pretty good example of this since you don't really need to read Vigilantes to get the impact of this and it is relevant to the plot. Aizawa's friend was killed and turned into a zombie, instant drama but also a way to have Aizawa use friendship to flip it around and get info in Dr Eggman. Compress isn't that great, but also people complained that he was the only league member without a backstory. Since Horikoshi didn't think he was important enough to spend a lot of time on him I guess you might as well give him something. Maybe it can be expanded on in some side material. Really the only thing I wasn't happy about was Vigilante Deku getting dropped so fast. That could have been a really great arc by itself, maybe with him going after the people behind Nagant to flesh that out. I do think she'll come back though. Delphisage posted:Gotta keep up with deadlines somehow, and throwing in random ideas for the sake of momentary angst is one way. Just look at how many chapters got eaten up by angst about Aoyama being the traitor that neither makes that much sense nor leads to anything. Aoyama betraying AfO is the entire catalyst for the final arc tho?
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Sep 27, 2022 21:37
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Nephthys posted:Aoyama betraying AfO is the entire catalyst for the final arc tho? Yeah, in the same way Gigantomachia's defeat was brought about by Momo and Kirishima. ...I don't know how to describe it. It's like, technically Aoyama can be said he's responsible for luring out AFO and initiating this dogpile, but it's not like he made any choices or character actions besides saying "I don't want to be evil" and deferring all the work to the rest of the cast. It's really boring and wastes what I thought would end up my favorite character of the 1-A kids. Delphisage fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Sep 27, 2022 |
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Sep 27, 2022 22:13
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Delphisage posted:Yeah, in the same way Gigantomachia's defeat was brought about by Momo and Kirishima. He chose to put not only himself but his family on the line in a very direct way. For someone who is defined as a pretty big coward that is an actual choice. Like the series is pretty blunt about the idea that heroism isn't just punching bad guys but standing up even when you are afraid. A little girl being willing to trust is just as heroic as a top ranked hero. Aoyama effectively put himself on the shitlist of the guy most likely to win because it was the right thing to do. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Sep 27, 2022 |
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Sep 27, 2022 22:18
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ImpAtom posted:He chose to put not only himself but his family on the line in a very direct way. For someone who is defined as a pretty big coward that is an actual choice. I still feel unsatisfied, though.
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Sep 27, 2022 22:21
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I think Aoyama would have felt a little more satisfying without the initial cheese fakeout, then Deku randomly stumbling Into him and his parents in the woods admitting their crimes for no reason, and then that betrayal being resolved in basically a chapter. It was very oddly paced while being rushed which is kinda my complaint with this comic ever since the initial raid on Shigaraki in the hibernation machine.
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Sep 27, 2022 22:24
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It's fair to not care, but I'm going to suggest that has more to do with that plot beat popping back up like two chapters prior through a ridiculous contrivance and Aoyama suddenly turning into a different character to facilitate it.
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Sep 27, 2022 22:25
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Eggplant Squire posted:I think Aoyama would have felt a little more satisfying without the initial cheese fakeout Or just follow it up with an actual Aoyama arc. We get one chapter of him at the start of the School Festival arc, and then he effectively disappears again until the end of 2021 with the traitor reveal. But then again, I just don't like him being the traitor since I wanted way better things from him. Delphisage fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Sep 27, 2022 |
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Sep 27, 2022 22:30
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to be fair, youre describing a point in time when people thought more than like 4 of the a-1 kids would get any amount of screentime or development.
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Sep 27, 2022 22:50
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Ultimately this just comes back around to how this all feels pointless and unearned because (for multiple possible reasons) decided to write nothing instead of something to fill out and give meaning and weight to the bare major plot points we've been burning through.
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Sep 27, 2022 23:02
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Endorph posted:to be fair, youre describing a point in time when people thought more than like 4 of the a-1 kids would get any amount of screentime or development. Who is the fourth?
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Sep 27, 2022 23:07
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Kirishima to a degree, he lucked out in the overhaul arc
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Sep 27, 2022 23:12
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It's more like he lucked out in being Bakugo's boyfriend, and that's why he was allowed two fights in a row while Mina got crammed inside his flashback.
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Sep 27, 2022 23:14
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Remember when Ida and Uraraka seemed important? Good times.
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Sep 27, 2022 23:29
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Remember when Shoto mattered?
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Sep 27, 2022 23:34
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Delphisage posted:Remember when Shoto mattered? He literally had a fight against his brother this arc
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Sep 27, 2022 23:44
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ImpAtom posted:He literally had a fight against his brother this arc And then it got undone.
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Sep 27, 2022 23:55
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Delphisage posted:And then it got undone. Meaning he's going to get even more pagetime continuing the fight. I get that the thread is in full doomposting mode but not everything needs to be framed in the most negative light possible all the time. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Sep 28, 2022 |
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Sep 28, 2022 00:21
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Nephthys posted:Meaning he's going to get even more pagetime continuing the fight. We'll see if that happens. I've got higher odds that Endeavor and Hawks show up to steal the credit. But if Shoto finishes the job, I'll be fine. I just hope it's not by going "what if fire, but ice" this time.
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Sep 28, 2022 00:25
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You think Endeavor's going to escape his encounter with AFO alive?
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Sep 28, 2022 00:34
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His whole body aside from his brain will be destroyed and they'll make him a new denim chassis
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Sep 28, 2022 00:37
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CuwiKhons posted:You think Endeavor's going to escape his encounter with AFO alive? Uh, yes. It'd make too many Western fans happy if he died, while the Japanese fandom would be outraged at the loss of their bara daddy.
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Sep 28, 2022 00:43
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