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https://twitter.com/Icebuko/status/1601241361143201794?t=_IwVzhe_e1U9Fg_kY5i3UA&s=19
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Dec 10, 2022 02:19
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| # ? May 27, 2024 21:54 |
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Tosk posted:Question about two details I can't remember from the manga that recently came up in the anime. She wanted Denji and Aki to bond. Leaving the two most visibly responsible for Himeno's death alive is what allows the tournament arc to happen.
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Dec 10, 2022 02:22
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Ok, tried to get into Fire Punch but dropped it about one third in. It does get pretty insane at times and I'm sure I would have been able to see more of Chainsaw Man's DNA further down the line (there's some of it to be found in what I read so far, particularly with Togata), but overall regardless of what was actually happening at any given point the story just couldn't shake off the feel of misery porn. The world in CSM is also bleak as hell, half its inhabitants are also psychopaths and the other half are also doomed to suffer until they're met with an untimely and grisly death, but there's still a lot of heart and sincerity in how CSM deals with the characters, and I just couldn't find any of that in Fire Punch. The comedy's definitely a part of it (Togata is a funny character, I guess, and Agni being forced to stop being a brooding edgelord for five seconds in order to accommodate her is a funny dynamic, but FP itself isn't funny at all), and I'm glad Fujimoto eventually perfected the recipe, I just don't care enough to browse through the rest of FP to try to find where exactly he came up with the formula.
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Dec 10, 2022 03:06
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SexyBlindfold posted:Ok, tried to get into Fire Punch but dropped it about one third in. It does get pretty insane at times and I'm sure I would have been able to see more of Chainsaw Man's DNA further down the line (there's some of it to be found in what I read so far, particularly with Togata), but overall regardless of what was actually happening at any given point the story just couldn't shake off the feel of misery porn. The world in CSM is also bleak as hell, half its inhabitants are also psychopaths and the other half are also doomed to suffer until they're met with an untimely and grisly death, but there's still a lot of heart and sincerity in how CSM deals with the characters, and I just couldn't find any of that in Fire Punch. The comedy's definitely a part of it (Togata is a funny character, I guess, and Agni being forced to stop being a brooding edgelord for five seconds in order to accommodate her is a funny dynamic, but FP itself isn't funny at all), and I'm glad Fujimoto eventually perfected the recipe, I just don't care enough to browse through the rest of FP to try to find where exactly he came up with the formula. At the end of the day FP isn't good imo. It has some great ideas and parts in a whole sea of really bad ideas and really lovely everything else imo. It's at best a scrapbook or testing ground for stuff he did orders of magnitude better in CSM.
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Dec 10, 2022 03:14
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Also rereading the chapters after this week's episode and it's wild how seemingly light Sawatari's contract with snake is. I remember thinking oh she must have something incredibly expensive for how effectively it dealt with ghost. It's just her fingernails though. Perhaps Kon is as OP I guess or Ghost really just felt surprisingly easily beaten by snake. Can't imagine snake being a big baby and puking out katana though. Before this week I had always assumed Makima could just specify who she needed with the names but I liked the anime making it clear she's using the birds. You see them in the manga too just not as much or as obviously. In retrospect super obvious but I never thought about it.
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Dec 10, 2022 03:16
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LostRook posted:She wanted Denji and Aki to bond. Leaving the two most visibly responsible for Himeno's death alive is what allows the tournament arc to happen. I don't think that was a big part of the plan. Makima being shot in the head before she could have a lunch suggests that she didn't plan everything to the finest detail. Himeno dying and Aki living then bonding with Denji was great, she really leaned into that, but if Aki had died she'd try to find someone else to provide Denji with a surrogate big brother. Keeping them around as an enemy to justify giving her more power feels more likely. If the killers who took out the Special Divisions were still loose, then Makima's bosses might be desperate enough to give her a little more power.
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Dec 10, 2022 03:30
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EmmyOk posted:Also rereading the chapters after this week's episode and it's wild how seemingly light Sawatari's contract with snake is. I remember thinking oh she must have something incredibly expensive for how effectively it dealt with ghost. It's just her fingernails though. Perhaps Kon is as OP I guess or Ghost really just felt surprisingly easily beaten by snake. Can't imagine snake being a big baby and puking out katana though. sawatari was probably makima’s sleeper agent, which would explain the unusually generous contract
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Dec 10, 2022 03:52
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Oxxidation posted:sawatari was probably makima’s sleeper agent, which would explain the unusually generous contract Possibly but I think it’s likely makima let events play out in the way that benefitted her most. It allowed her to assume direct control over the group she wanted and then the raid allowed her to demonstrate it’s worth. I like that it’s vague though and you never really know much about it.
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Dec 10, 2022 03:56
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Snake is just chill
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Dec 10, 2022 03:58
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They were targeting devil hunters, of course the contract would be good.
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Dec 10, 2022 04:17
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chiasaur11 posted:if Aki had died she'd try to find someone else to provide Denji with a surrogate big brother. i want the version of chainsaw man where makima's plan doesn't quite work as smoothly as it does in the actual manga and with both power and aki dead in the yakuza attack, she has to scramble to make denji form deep emotional attachments to prinz and beam
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Dec 10, 2022 04:21
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I still think that Makima was the one setting up basically all of Sawatari's operation (Who's got guns and Gun Devil bits to hand out? You think it was a contract with Gun that made Snake Epstein Sawatari?), so keeping her and Katana around lets her prove that the reformed Special Division now under her command is an effective force if nothing else.
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Dec 10, 2022 04:58
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Valentin posted:i want the version of chainsaw man where makima's plan doesn't quite work as smoothly as it does in the actual manga and with both power and aki dead in the yakuza attack, she has to scramble to make denji form deep emotional attachments to prinz and beam "Look, Reze, I know you don't like me, but I'm really running low on people for Denji to form emotional connections with, and you won't stay dead, so..."
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Dec 10, 2022 05:16
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EmmyOk posted:Also rereading the chapters after this week's episode and it's wild how seemingly light Sawatari's contract with snake is. I remember thinking oh she must have something incredibly expensive for how effectively it dealt with ghost. It's just her fingernails though. Perhaps Kon is as OP I guess or Ghost really just felt surprisingly easily beaten by snake. Can't imagine snake being a big baby and puking out katana though. And tbf, the sacrifice can just be whatever and doesn't doesn't necessarily correlate with how strong a devil is, just how much they're willing to put out (plus the inherent difference in how much they're feared). Aki got the Future Devil for free! 
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Dec 10, 2022 07:08
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Did we ever actually learn what Sawatari’s motivation was? She was apparently mad enough at Makima over something to team up with the mafia and kill a bunch of her former coworkers.
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Dec 10, 2022 10:38
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galagazombie posted:Did we ever actually learn what Sawatari’s motivation was? She was apparently mad enough at Makima over something to team up with the mafia and kill a bunch of her former coworkers. Not her coworkers. She was private sector. On the one end, she hated Makima and was sincerely trying to kill her. On the other, we know Makima had some control over her. ...Which makes it possible that the start of things was her finding out that Makima had some level of control over her, and Makima, in her signature "It's hilarious to make the guy who hates Devils most my chauffeur" way, used her attempted rebellion to control Akane into empowering Makima all the more without even realizing what was happening.
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Dec 10, 2022 11:37
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EmmyOk posted:Also rereading the chapters after this week's episode and it's wild how seemingly light Sawatari's contract with snake is. I remember thinking oh she must have something incredibly expensive for how effectively it dealt with ghost. It's just her fingernails though. Perhaps Kon is as OP I guess or Ghost really just felt surprisingly easily beaten by snake. Can't imagine snake being a big baby and puking out katana though. Snakes are gentle creatures
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Dec 10, 2022 11:58
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The group Akane/Snake were with had a ton of Gun Devil Flesh as well. Could that power up contracted devils?
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Dec 10, 2022 13:04
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Isn't it also her contract that gets her head eaten when she gets caught?
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Dec 10, 2022 13:18
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I think people are underestimating the Snake contract. Taking a fingernail might not be super serious, but it sharply limits how often Snake can be used. IIRC, fingernails fully regrow after 4-6 months, so she has roughly 10 uses of Snake per half a year, which is pretty drat low. Or even less, if some summons take more than 1 fingernails.
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Dec 10, 2022 13:26
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Well, maybe 20? We don't know if it can take toenails too (and we probably never will, now) Regardless, she could definitely be dealt with if you just keep hounding her.
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Dec 10, 2022 13:32
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It’s pretty low cost even if it is limited to uses, could also include toenails. There’s also no guarantee it just takes fingernails. Iirc Kon mostly took skin or blood but hair was a treat. Devils can make light contracts if they want to for sure though.
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Dec 10, 2022 13:33
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I like the answers to Sawatari’s group never being made clear and remaining ambiguous. I always assumed they had been funded by a government outside Japan. The international assassins arc and the bomb arc let us know that plenty of other groups than makima are aware of and want Denji’s heart. They also want Makima dead. So I don’t think it’s necessarily something Makima set up herself. I think it’s something she allowed to play out and managed
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Dec 10, 2022 13:38
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Toenails take year+ to fully regrow, so that's not that big of a victory. But yea, contracts depends on the whimsy of the Devil, so maybe Snake Devil is just lazy and prefers to focus on minimizing how often he can be actually summoned.
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Dec 10, 2022 13:38
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Aki grew his top knot specifically for remunerating the fox devil. Granted, the fox devil is crazy about ikemen, but I'm sure the snake devil can start taking hair or something once she runs out of nails.
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Dec 10, 2022 16:31
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Danger Diabolik posted:Isn't it also her contract that gets her head eaten when she gets caught? That's Makima's explanation. It's something I really enjoy regarding lots of questions like "Why didn't CSM kill Kobeni when she called for help when we're told he kills whoever he "saves"?" Almost all of it is Makima being unreliable.
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Dec 10, 2022 16:58
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Hadn’t earned his hug yet. Got the burger and date instead
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Dec 10, 2022 18:11
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Lt. Lizard posted:Toenails take year+ to fully regrow, so that's not that big of a victory.
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Dec 10, 2022 18:14
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Also, I got the impression this time around that while Snake does take flesh, maybe it operates on different rules from Ghost. Both are very powerful but Snake takes a lot less flesh. Why? Maybe Snake can only be used up to your number of remaining fingernails. But I also don't remember if we see her paying anything else later.
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Dec 10, 2022 18:26
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EmmyOk posted:I like the answers to Sawatari’s group never being made clear and remaining ambiguous. I always assumed they had been funded by a government outside Japan. The international assassins arc and the bomb arc let us know that plenty of other groups than makima are aware of and want Denji’s heart. They also want Makima dead. So I don’t think it’s necessarily something Makima set up herself. I think it’s something she allowed to play out and managed The Eternity Devil was absolutely Makima, how else would the devil have known that Denji was a public safety devil hunter who had chainsaw heart, but not known what he looked like. Next episode Makima tells Kishibe that she's deliberately creating media coverage and spreading information of the special 4th, and although her reason why is undoubtably a lie her doing it must be true, as we see it as early as the assassin arc if not earlier. That Reze's actions fall exactly in line with what she wants almost certainly means Makima lead Reze to finding out about Chainsaw. The assassin arc is actually part attempt to kill Makima and part bait by Makima. Makima is definitively directly or indirectly responsible for every other arc of the series in part 1 beyond the first chapter, and given her use of zombie later she could even be involved with that, so it makes sense to me that she'd also be responsible for this one. Their wanting Makima dead doesn't really matter if Makima is in control of it. The only part of being shot that mattered to Makima was having to change clothes.
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Dec 10, 2022 19:13
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Just a thought, does anyone wonder if Makima actually felt anything watching movies with Denji? She dislikes almost all of them and cries only when Denji cries, is that just more manipulation or a real moment of insecurity from her? The way she says she wants to get rid of the bad movies near the end still suggests she enjoyed some things but I dunno. She definitely invited Denji out to the movies to imprint on him but I’m not sure about this part being genuine.
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Dec 10, 2022 21:15
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I’m of the opinion that Makima genuinely enjoys movies and could have been lying about wanting to get rid of bad movies. Per Pochita, she wants an equal friendship but is too powerful. She may genuinely like humans and their dumb bullshit and just resent that they’re too weak to have a meaningful connection with. Bad movies would thus be a reminder of humans being weak (failure to succeed at making a good movie is weakness to her). She doesn’t necessarily not enjoy a bad movie, but instead wants then to not exist. In her ideal world, humans would be strong and smart and competent enough that a bad movie wouldn’t happen.
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Dec 10, 2022 21:24
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Weird BIAS posted:Just a thought, does anyone wonder if Makima actually felt anything watching movies with Denji? She dislikes almost all of them and cries only when Denji cries, is that just more manipulation or a real moment of insecurity from her? The way she says she wants to get rid of the bad movies near the end still suggests she enjoyed some things but I dunno. She definitely invited Denji out to the movies to imprint on him but I’m not sure about this part being genuine. Visual language all says Makima's sincere for the whole movie date. Hair down means the guard's down and that. What's more, Pochita all but says she was being sincere in the final chapter, crying because the film depicted the human connections she needed and was unable to have. Makima's date was inviting Pochita into her world, showing vulnerability and offering help in understanding its setup, using Denji as a proxy since she couldn't have the real thing yet. (And, ironically, showing that Denji was what she wanted, while the Chainsaw Man she praised couldn't do what she needed). What's more, it not being a real moment of connection means it's boring and pointless, just more manipulation with no meaning and no difference from any other chapter. I'd say that, in general, the manga is mostly going according to Makima's plans, but that doesn't mean it's all due to her choices. We see with Gun that she basically has some overall goals (remove superiors, force every enemy into the open to be crushed, get Chainsaw) and is taking actions towards them, but she doesn't control everything and often it goes off script for a bit, sometimes disastrously so. (For example, Santa Clause could have and would have killed everyone in Japan to get at Makima, if Denji hadn't stopped her.) It's just that, until the end, she planned flexible enough and was strong enough that the speedbumps just meant thousands more innocent people died which, you know. Happens.
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Dec 10, 2022 22:32
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Yeah defeating Santa Claus was pure luck. Makima tried to directly fight her and got destroyed, and even if Denji saved Makima and defeated one of her bodies, they would be still screwed if Halloween Girl wasn't there, or if Quanxi didn't feel like finishing things there and then (a decision she had the chance to briefly and deeply regret about a minute or so later.).
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Dec 10, 2022 22:56
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Pretty sure Sawatari’s group was set up by Makima, but they did not know they were working for Makima and thought the Gun Devil employed them.
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Dec 11, 2022 01:30
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Yeah I don't think Makima is some arrogant master manipulator... well no she is, but considering she needs to consider herself above someone to Control them, and always only does so to the antagonists after they have been beaten, her respect and "humanity" if you want to call it that, is genuine. Maybe!!
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Dec 11, 2022 01:47
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Honestly the idea of Makima planning out and orchestrating every major event is kind of boring to me. The more interesting idea to me is that she found ways to take advantage of the situations and turn them to her benefit, without making it obvious she was doing so. Her not orchestrating the events also means the world in general feels more fleshed out, as it means that there are more people and groups acting independently. If Makima orchestrated everything, then now that she's gone we don't need to worry about some group of overseas assassins showing up to make a mess or anything like that anymore.
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Dec 11, 2022 02:03
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Bomb and Assassins were not set up by her at least.
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Dec 11, 2022 02:07
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Katana/sawatari being fully orchestrated by Makima makes no sense too if you remember she meets with the yakuza before the raid asking for info
Bread Set Jettison fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Dec 11, 2022 |
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Dec 11, 2022 03:04
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| # ? May 27, 2024 21:54 |
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If you're gonna say Makima was behind Sawatari the whole time then may as well go whole hog and say she was the secret boss of the old Yakuza dude
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Dec 11, 2022 04:36
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