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So should I be the one to point out that twitter chain chose to translate the text in the most inflammatory way possible and leave off the final bit where they talk about how real life child porn is absolutely evil and lovely or Dude probably had some weird fetishes, that's nothing new to anyone, but nothing about this seems that surprising or even damning. This is not a Kenshiro thing, unless I missed something where he attacked people in real life and victims have come forward or something. I read the thread before going to the twitter chain and seriously thought that there was some heinous poo poo, but mostly it's just a lot of lovely but harmless nerd bull from the 2000s that doesn't hurt anyone either way and certainly isn't anything new, dressed up in exaggerated context by a lovely translation. Am I missing something? (USER WAS PERMABANNED FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 20, 2022 04:32
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Burkion posted:So should I be the one to point out that twitter chain chose to translate the text in the most inflammatory way possible and leave off the final bit where they talk about how real life child porn is absolutely evil and lovely or This is not the slam dunk you think it is. To elaborate I think most of us are deeply repulsed by drawn material depicting sexual or sexualized situations involving children. The argument that it some how mitigates real pedophilia is the weakest cover. Additionally the comic itself depicts Muira as being attracted to actual flesh and blood children. I beg you to rethink this. Sam Sanskrit fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Dec 20, 2022 |
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Dec 20, 2022 04:40
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Sam Sanskrit posted:This is not the slam dunk you think it is. I'm not saying it is He had lovely nerd views, this isn't surprising if you knew what he made. But people are likening him to Kenshiro's creator when it seems pretty loving different to me This is closer to Toriyama and the lovely things he wrote and drew (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 20, 2022 04:43
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Also my dude the thing at the end is clearly a legal disclaimer not part of the text of the thing itself. It's likely mandated. Why do people do this
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Dec 20, 2022 04:44
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Burkion posted:So should I be the one to point out that twitter chain chose to translate the text in the most inflammatory way possible and leave off the final bit where they talk about how real life child porn is absolutely evil and lovely or The point of the essay is that Otaku are pedophiles who don't act on their urges because they have Anime. That's not me blurring fiction and reality, that's literally the argument that Miura makes. You can have different stances on how you feel about that, but Miura is a pedophile.
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Dec 20, 2022 05:03
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Burkion posted:So should I be the one to point out that twitter chain chose to translate the text in the most inflammatory way possible Also while we are at it translating lolicon as pedophile is not inflammatory, it's accurate. This is partially I think that weird thing where English speakers have weird relationships to Japanese loan words. BUT ALSO to be clear I do think people's attachment to it is also some "well technically I'm a ephebophile" style attempt at evasion.
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Dec 20, 2022 05:10
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Although we should point out that, AFAIK, he hasn't been accused of sexual assault or anything along those lines. Miura said what he said and drew what he drew, but there's that, and then there's, y'know, that. E: For the record I'm not saying this as a defense of Miura, but between these posts I think there might have been some confusion Burkion posted:So should I be the one to point out that twitter chain chose to translate the text in the most inflammatory way possible and leave off the final bit where they talk about how real life child porn is absolutely evil and lovely or anime was right posted:that sucks a lot. for all the people now continuing his work and for everyone he hurt. jesus. christmas boots fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Dec 20, 2022 |
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Dec 20, 2022 05:53
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christmas boots posted:Although we should point out that, AFAIK, he hasn't been accused of sexual assault or anything along those lines. Miura said what he said and drew what he drew, but there's that, and then there's, y'know, that. did you read the same thread i did because ummmmm https://twitter.com/kojion/status/1604244603204276224 that seems like a really weird thing to hypothetically confess to. anime was right fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Dec 20, 2022 |
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Dec 20, 2022 06:05
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anime was right posted:did you read the same thread i did because ummmmm Doesn't "but two-dimensional pedophile art is banned." sentence imply that this is him drawing a "What if lolicon was banned???" scenario?
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Dec 20, 2022 06:13
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I took that to be Miura's hypothetical pedophile who will--per his argument--go on to assault children because he doesn't have this outlet since all loli poo poo was banned. I don't think it's Miura confessing to a crime he himself committed.
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Dec 20, 2022 06:13
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Yeah the whole "loli is good actually because it provides an outlet for those who would otherwise be assaulting children" is unfortunately a pretty popular defense otaku culture uses of their gross as gently caress fetish. What made me finally realize Digibro was not worth paying any attention to whatsoever was when she went on The Dick Show and used essentially the exact same argument to defend being an out lolicon.  That thread is really disappointing but, unfortunately, not all that surprising given the gross poo poo Miura had in his other works, and even started incorporating into Berserk somewhat with Isma and Schierke down the stretch. I don't take any of it to be some kind of confession that Miura himself actually ever assaulted anyone, but it does suck that he used his power and fame as an author to push back against an anti-child pornography bill because it would have interfered with his disgusting fetish. Basically I'm here: Torquemadras posted:But, what is there to say now?
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Dec 20, 2022 06:49
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Miura has passed, whatever the guy personally thought cannot harm anyone anymore, Berserk already has enough well-known issues which these particular news don't really affect, and the studio he founded should have the chance to be better.
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gently caress it, this shouldn't get off so lightly.Burkion posted:So should I be the one to point out that twitter chain chose to translate the text in the most inflammatory way possible and leave off the final bit where they talk about how real life child porn is absolutely evil and lovely or It is still a defense of child sexual abuse material, real or drawn is not an important distinction. Do you think it is? quote:Dude probably had some weird fetishes Not "Weird fetishes," he was sexually attracted to children and produced content representing that quote:that's nothing new to anyone It's new to people in this very thread quote:but nothing about this seems that surprising or even damning. This is not a Kenshiro thing, unless I missed something where he attacked people in real life and victims have come forward or something. It is damning and bad when people support creation of child sexual abuse material, regardless of whatever other thing you are bringing up here quote:I read the thread before going to the twitter chain and seriously thought that there was some heinous poo poo, but mostly it's just a lot of lovely but harmless nerd bull from the 2000s that doesn't hurt anyone either way and certainly isn't anything new, dressed up in exaggerated context by a lovely translation. Am I missing something? Pedophiles are super stoked when people try to frame the sexualization of children this way Think about what you're trying to minimize. I suspect you know, but I'm going to be extremely charitable and just say you are ignorant and extremely online. big cummers ONLY fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Dec 20, 2022 |
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Dec 20, 2022 07:43
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watsuki got way more pushback because nobody is reading RK anymore, even when it had nothing that would have given it away like miura the veiled “what’s gonna happen to real kids if you take this away?!?” threat alone is enough to make me drop the manga forever and I feel like if he wasn’t in this industry fans wouldn’t have excuses for it like this
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Dec 20, 2022 22:05
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skipmyseashells posted:watsuki got way more pushback because nobody is reading RK anymore, even when it had nothing that would have given it away like miura Guess you missed the part where One Piece luminary Eiichiro Oda was doing PR for Watsuki after his conviction and Rurouni Kenshin is getting another anime in 2023, huh? And there were actual victims in that case, not just a dead artist expressing a not unreasonable(massive air quotes)-but-obviously-flawed argument for protecting the grossest drawn pornography, in a gross way, twelve years ago. There is absolutely no saving that entire industry, but miss me with the Watsuki comparisons.
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Dec 20, 2022 23:39
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Burkion posted:So should I be the one to point out that twitter chain chose to translate the text in the most inflammatory way possible and leave off the final bit where they talk about how real life child porn is absolutely evil and lovely or I agree with this. people are being dumb as hell in the thread, literally acting as if he assaulted anyone or anything. he didn't hurt anyone, he kept his sexual perversions to himself. choose to engage or not. Many people are making literally the most uncharitable/non factual reading of what he did. shout out to the person above who thought that the hypothetical pedophile was miura themselves. not surprised dumbasses posting in adtrw don't know the meaning of allegory. you can think that "lolicon manga/anime lessens pedophilic assaults" is a dumbass argument (I personally do) but to accuse him of being a pedophile or actually hurting someone is really a step too far. also, using his own work to judge him, it's obvious that his taste in women is personified by Casca. he's literally even given interviews confirming it. Casca, one of the strongest female characters in manga, IMO. go ahead, drop the manga, criticize a dead man's memory. whatever makes you feel good about yourself. it's truly meaningless.
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Dec 20, 2022 23:40
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Mirello posted:I agree with this. people are being dumb as hell in the thread, literally acting as if he assaulted anyone or anything. he didn't hurt anyone, he kept his sexual perversions to himself. choose to engage or not. He used his platform to argue in favor of child sexual content quote:Many people are making literally the most uncharitable/non factual reading of what he did. shout out to the person above who thought that the hypothetical pedophile was miura themselves. not surprised dumbasses posting in adtrw don't know the meaning of allegory. Yeah im sure the guy who drew naked kids all the time and wrote an impassioned defense of drawn child porn wasn't a pedophile you guys. The most charitable interpretation still contains "art of kids loving is fine and actually good." quote:you can think that "lolicon manga/anime lessens pedophilic assaults" is a dumbass argument (I personally do) but to accuse him of being a pedophile or actually hurting someone is really a step too far. Using your influence to try to normalize child sex material is harmful quote:also, using his own work to judge him, it's obvious that his taste in women is personified by Casca. he's literally even given interviews confirming it. Casca, one of the strongest female characters in manga, IMO. you can like 2 things, you can also say one thing to try to deflect from another thing. but if you have footage of him pinky promising someone that he isn't a pedophile, im cooked quote:go ahead, drop the manga, criticize a dead man's memory. whatever makes you feel good about yourself. it's truly meaningless. thanks, i feel the same way about you defending pedophiles on somethingawful It's real loving gross that people feel comfortable posting like this on these forums. big cummers ONLY fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Dec 21, 2022 |
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Dec 21, 2022 00:13
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Depiction is not endorsement and *looks at past work* Ah, nevermind.
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Dec 21, 2022 01:28
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big cummers ONLY posted:dumb poo poo there's a lot I could say, but I won't. there's really no point. you're obviously very passionate about calling this dead guy a pedophile. I'd like to use this thread to discuss berserk. when a new chapter comes out, I don't want this constant discussion of miura, and what you imagine his preferences are. if it bothers you, make another thread to discuss the problems of lolicon and pedophilia in anime/manga. I'd support you 100%. I hate all that poo poo to be honest. many manga I've read have been ruined by it, and I think it's really gross. I also think that it doesn't really hurt anyone, and if you don't like it, you can stop reading. let me remind you, this guy is dead. he has nothing to do with berserk anymore, as he doesn't exist. I guess you could call his assistants and the new guy pedophiles too, but that's nonsense. everybody currently contributing to berserk is clean. can we please discuss it instead of this? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PERMABANNED FOR THIS POST) Mirello fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Dec 21, 2022 |
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Dec 21, 2022 02:04
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Dec 21, 2022 02:15
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I thought it was a parody because the character saying these things is an exaggerated example of a fat gross otaku. But if not a parody and if these are someone’s true feelings, ew. For me, Berserk ended on the panel where Caska has her memory back and sees Guts again. That panel would have been an absolutely perfect ending imo.
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Dec 21, 2022 02:16
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Unfortunately this poo poo is not irrelevant to Berserk. It is in the comic. This is the same “can we move on” poo poo that happens every time somebody points out that something wrong with the way any work depicts poo poo in this forums and it sucks. Berserk is a work of art that is compromised by the inclusion of various fetish material into the work and this should be on table when people are discussing the work of art.
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Dec 21, 2022 02:23
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Get ready for the third thread. This one lasted probably 1/10th as long as the previous.
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Dec 21, 2022 03:07
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I sort of suspect part of Miura's intent with that comic was speaking on behalf of the creators in the industry more than himself specifically. Obviously there's a lot of creators in that industry that feel like making that kind of material is the kind of thing that should be a free choice. Ken Akamatsu even successfully ran for a House of Councillors position on a platform largely based on artists freedom of expression and opposition to growing censorship effort. A lot of creative industries have stuff like this at pretty much every level. When I was doing standup I knew people all the way from open micers to international working professionals who had really strong feelings they should be allowed to say whatever they want on stage, but at the end of they day they're creating a product people are paying for so it's obviously not that simple, especially as people as people on the other side of the censorship coin are getting more vocal and organised.
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Dec 21, 2022 03:42
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How many times does this need to keep happening before people stop twisting themselves into a pretzel trying to explain away Miura's by now obvious proclivities? "Yes this person has drawn himself running me over with a car like twenty times before now and is now engaged in arguing for why running me over with a car should be legal, but surely, SURELY this person does not actually desire to run me over with a car."
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Dec 21, 2022 03:55
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At this point if it ended with Guts accepting that there's no winning in this fight and him gearing up to rescue Casca while telling his new crew that he intends to spend the rest of his life struggling against the currents of fate, it would be rather fitting.
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Dec 21, 2022 04:18
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Miura is dead. While he was a brilliant creator, I am not too surprised he's got a few "skeletons in his closet" in a sense. I'd be more surprised if he were a saint and still managed to depict the dark side of humanity. All the same, I don't think this makes Berserk any lesser as a work of fiction. Problematic, to be sure, but still worthy of praise, criticism and commentary.
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Dec 21, 2022 06:03
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wielder posted:Miura is dead. While he was a brilliant creator, I am not too surprised he's got a few "skeletons in his closet" in a sense. I'd be more surprised if he were a saint and still managed to depict the dark side of humanity. I agree with this. To be clear I think the work remains the work of a master of and is absolutely worth study and praise. I just also think that when we put on blinders to the negative dimensions of the work it both makes people involved in the discussion seem naive at best and leads to dramatically misrepresenting the comic when you have to pretend that certain negative things do not exist in the work. And also I think it valuable so people can make informed decisions about if engaging with this author at all is worth it to them.
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Dec 21, 2022 07:02
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Dude was a pedophile, whether he acted on it or not. Talk about the manga Beserk, but if anyone else comes in here with the "but mayyyybe he wasn't" bullshit, they will get banned. You don't have to defend monsters because you enjoy their drawings. Just enjoy their drawings.
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Dec 21, 2022 07:05
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just, fuckin read Berserk if you want to don't read Berserk if you don't want to This conversation never ever ever goes well here.
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Dec 21, 2022 07:48
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Fluffdaddy posted:Dude was a pedophile, whether he acted on it or not. Talk about the manga Beserk, but if anyone else comes in here with the "but mayyyybe he wasn't" bullshit, they will get banned. You don't have to defend monsters because you enjoy their drawings. Just enjoy their drawings. https://youtu.be/Kyll4q-7spk?t=20
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Dec 21, 2022 09:18
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Mazed posted:just, fuckin I feel like it has been going fine actually aside from the people going “lalala stop talking about this I don’t want to hear it.”
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Dec 21, 2022 10:04
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Sam Sanskrit posted:I feel like it has been going fine actually I was about to question this, but goons lamenting non-existing victims, equating someone expressing very bad opinions with a convicted pedophile, and raving about how [topic of thread] is dead forever, is par for the course actually. Carry on.
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Dec 21, 2022 10:18
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LordMune posted:I was about to question this, but goons lamenting non-existing victims, equating someone expressing very bad opinions with a convicted pedophile, and raving about how [topic of thread] is dead forever, is par for the course actually. Carry on. I mean I think it worth dragging that poo poo to light and debunking it but I take your point.
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Dec 21, 2022 10:28
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LordMune posted:I was about to question this, but goons lamenting non-existing victims, equating someone expressing very bad opinions with a convicted pedophile, and raving about how [topic of thread] is dead forever, is par for the course actually. Carry on. sorry that I don’t believe a guy saying “if I don’t get pedo stuff I’m going to hug middle schoolers naked” didn’t get caught with anything in a country where you only get fines for this kind of stuff before his heart pulled a kill bill You can read the manga in the same way people still listen to Michael Jackson or r Kelly music, I never said the topic of thread is dead I literally just said I’m dropping it cause he’s a raging pedophile who’s thankfully in the grave now
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Dec 21, 2022 14:14
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And I only brought up watsuki cause unlike miura you’d never guess he was a raging pedohpile from his manga while was berserk leaving clues everywhere in the last third. the rurounin exhibition was nasty but I don’t see anyone saying trigun or death note needs to be ignored cause they drew battousai
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Dec 21, 2022 14:18
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Dec 21, 2022 14:23
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Not gonna lie, I kinda approve that the very first thing happening in the new Miura-less chapters is Isma being erased from existence They hopefully have better sense than dive head-first into the worst ideas of the author. They're never going to comment on a decade-old story like this (I think I remember it came to light several times, actually? Not sure if Miura was identified like this before), and while they were probably aware, there's zero chance they will disparage him. Kouji Mori did mention in interviews that the story moving foreward will be more rushed, since they want to add as little as possible to what was planned and discussed with the original author. That, hopefully (sure lots of "hopefully" in this, huh?), will mean it focuses on what people actually like about Berserk, even if those parts struggle to keep up the quality. I refuse to believe Berserk cannot drop those elements.
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Dec 21, 2022 16:01
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The entire first half of the story is how adults are monstrous for taking advantage of children, in numerous ways. The Lost Children mini-arc is very explicit about how adults taking advantage of children is bad. I don’t get how Miura was able to hold such opposing views and I’m amazed that I didn’t hear about this sooner. I mean even if I had known when it was first released it would have just meant I stopped reading like five chapters ago what with his release schedule.
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Dec 21, 2022 17:14
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PringleCreamEgg posted:I don’t get how Miura was able to hold such opposing views There are degrees to everything including pedophilia, just like self defense is not careless driving is not drunk driving is not manslaughter is not murder: - Getting turned on by cartoon children - Watching porn with cartoon children - Getting turned on by real children - Watching porn with real children - Exposing yourself to children - Actually doing it (death penalty imho) Each of these are actually various shades of gray in order of increasing darkness, and watching underage hentai is not considered pedophilia in all countries. Who can truly say if the thousand year old witch who looks like a 14 year old counts as pedo porn? But it IS illegal in many places BECAUSE the slippery slope argument and because culture. Just look at *waves at otaku culture and folders full manga artists being jailed for this kind of poo poo*. It sets a culture that says it’s okay in fantasy land and the step from there to real life is suddenly much smaller. I think the most depressing part if this thing is that Miura’s argument is extremely bad and entirely backwards: Shutting it down makes it LESS likely to happen in real live, because see above. So there is definitely no evidence at all that he has ever acted on his fantasies which is good, however he has drawn some very troubling poo poo in berserk and his side mangas which is bad because it helps foster a very bad culture that leads ultimately to actual children getting hurt, and this thing just makes that even worse. But I don’t think it lands him in cancel territory, like it is a strongly negative character trait but e.g. hitting your partner would be worse so that lands him in safer territory than at least 5% of human population. So basically i’m in the “it’s lovely but redeemable by simply ceasing all related activities and preferably an apology statement (if he was still alive)” camp. Bisse fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Dec 21, 2022 |
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Dec 21, 2022 18:08
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Bisse posted:It is totally possible to hate people who take advantage of children, while also get turned on by underage cartoon girls. Just the same way as it is possible to hate violence and feel regret from stepping on an insect by accident, while also fantasizing about murdering and dismembering someone you hate. It might be worth noting that the comic is signed by the Young Animal editorial department, so this isn't just some screed Miura posted unprovoked. He was evidently on board enough to draw the thing, but he was likely commissioned by the publisher attempting to protect its business interests. Either way, the closing statement (not translated in the tweets, it seems, go figure) mentions that all parties involved are "strongly opposed" to pornographic material involving actual minors. The whole thing is a harm reduction argument that doesn't fly in most places because of normalization/above-mentioned "slippery slope" concerns (for good reason).
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Dec 21, 2022 18:30
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