(Thread IKs:
Nenonen)
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What should the presidential powers be in 2020? This poll is closed. |
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| UNLIMITED!!!! URKKI 2.0!!!!!! |
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3 | 23.08% |
| Sauli should be allowed to telecast to our homes whenever he pleases, but that should be the limit. |
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2 | 15.38% |
| He should be limited to writing mildly worded letters to HBL and other provincial newspapers. |
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2 | 15.38% |
| None. More power to Sanna & Katri & Maria & Li & Anna-Maja & Jenni! |
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2 | 15.38% |
| Unlimited, but every decision must be subject to a plebiscite. |
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0 | 0% |
| None, but the president's life must be video streamed 24 /7 for the duration of their term, with no censorship. |
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4 | 30.77% |
| Total: | 13 votes | ||
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Nenonen posted:Now how is China's relations with Taleban relevant to Finland's NATO membership? Try to stay on topic instead of vomiting endless posts just because both of you think that you have to 'win' an online debate. Hint: you are not changing either one's views by going through this same thing the 12th time. I haven't mentioned China's relations with the Taleban once, though?
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Jan 19, 2023 19:40
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Nenonen posted:Now how is China's relations with Taleban relevant to Finland's NATO membership? Try to stay on topic instead of vomiting endless posts just because both of you think that you have to 'win' an online debate. Hint: you are not changing either one's views by going through this same thing the 12th time. Isn't that the ostensible point of Dungeons and Dragons, though? To challenge the views of others and argue in favour of one's own? Why does Dungeons and Dragons even exist if we can't yell into the void that is Putin's endless propaganda, or someone's racist uncles, or whatever else Darkcrawler finds fun to do?
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Jan 19, 2023 19:56
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Oispa pervitiiniä
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Jan 19, 2023 20:05
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mää vittu mainittin ne saatanan talebaanien suhteet kiinaan vitun vertauksena ameriikan "suhteelle" vitun afghanistaniin voi hyvä luoja ja vittu saatana antakoon armoa
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Jan 19, 2023 20:11
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eikö niinku voi ottaa yhtäkään PERKELEEN viestiä vilpittömästi. HELVETTI. eniwei, huomenna töitä ja toivotaan kaikille hyvää
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Jan 19, 2023 20:13
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Darkest Auer posted:Oispa pervitiiniä nykyaikanen pitkävaikutteinen amfetamiini ko elvanse paljo tehokkaampaa. normaali speedi sokeripalassa toimii ehkä tunnin tai pari, mut jos siihen liittää palasen aminohappoa, niin suoli joutuu prosessoimaan jokaisen molekyylin ennen ko se vapautuu vereen, johtaen noin 9 tunnin vaikutusaikaan nieltynä. ei myöskään voi vetää nekkuun, johtuen tuosta aminohapon palasesta
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Jan 19, 2023 20:18
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Nenonen posted:Now how is China's relations with Taleban relevant to Finland's NATO membership? Try to stay on topic instead of vomiting endless posts just because both of you think that you have to 'win' an online debate. Hint: you are not changing either one's views by going through this same thing the 12th time. no, jos meiän on oikeesti tarkotus, ilman omaa vaihtoehtoa, valita kahdesta pahasta pienempi, niin ameriikka ja NATO yleisesti, empiirisesti aiheutetun kärsimyksen määräällä mitattuna, ehdostomasti ei ole se pienempi pahis. joten kaippa se argumentti vaan oleepi, että suomi tarvittee NATOn muonitusreitin (ns. ydinsuoja) selvitäkseen jatkossa. vai siis, luinko väärin et venäjän hyökkäyssota olisi jokin moraalinen peruste NATOn liittymiselle?
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Jan 19, 2023 20:32
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lollontee posted:no, jos meiän on oikeesti tarkotus, ilman omaa vaihtoehtoa, valita kahdesta pahasta pienempi, niin ameriikka ja NATO yleisesti, empiirisesti aiheutetun kärsimyksen määräällä mitattuna, ehdostomasti ei ole se pienempi pahis. joten kaippa se argumentti vaan oleepi, että suomi tarvittee NATOn muonitusreitin (ns. ydinsuoja) selvitäkseen jatkossa. vai siis, luinko väärin et venäjän hyökkäyssota olisi jokin moraalinen peruste NATOn liittymiselle? Amerikan Yhdysvallat eivät hyökänneet Puolaan syyskuussa 1939. Amerikan Yhdysvallat eivät hyökänneet Suomeen marraskuussa 1939. Suomi on pieni maa, ja meillä ei ole varaa olla maailman moraalin esitaistelijoita. Me emme voi sanoa mitä isot tekevät.
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Jan 19, 2023 20:49
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lollontee posted:eikö niinku voi ottaa yhtäkään PERKELEEN viestiä vilpittömästi. HELVETTI. eniwei, huomenna töitä ja toivotaan kaikille hyvää Vilpittömän vastakohta on argumentoida sitä faktaa vastaan, että Suomen etu nykytilanteessa jossa avoimen imperialistinen valta käy hyökkäyssota sen lähellä on mennä jonkun toisen imperialistisen vallan selän taakse, vetämällä aiheen kiinalaisiin ja Afganistaniin. Mitä haittaa Naton jäsenyydellä on Suomelle verrattuna siihen miten Venäjä kohtelee oman imperiuminsa vasalleja? lollontee posted:no, jos meiän on oikeesti tarkotus, ilman omaa vaihtoehtoa, valita kahdesta pahasta pienempi, niin ameriikka ja NATO yleisesti, empiirisesti aiheutetun kärsimyksen määräällä mitattuna, ehdostomasti ei ole se pienempi pahis. joten kaippa se argumentti vaan oleepi, että suomi tarvittee NATOn muonitusreitin (ns. ydinsuoja) selvitäkseen jatkossa. vai siis, luinko väärin et venäjän hyökkäyssota olisi jokin moraalinen peruste NATOn liittymiselle? Mites ne realistiset, moraalista välittämättömät omaan etuun perustuvat perusteet? lollontee posted:mää vittu mainittin ne saatanan talebaanien suhteet kiinaan vitun vertauksena ameriikan "suhteelle" vitun afghanistaniin voi hyvä luoja ja vittu saatana antakoon armoa Se että vertauksesi ovat vitun huonoja ei kiukuttelulla muutu muuksi.
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Jan 19, 2023 21:42
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in 1938, at the same moment as the finnish foreign minister (väinö voiomaa iirc) was telling molotov that finland had no plans to seek foreign military guarantees, the finnish embassador in sweden was asking stalin's spy in the british embassy to inquire about the possibility of military guarantees in the event of a soviet invasion
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Jan 19, 2023 22:51
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haetko tällä paskalla paikkaa seuraavaan terijoen hallitukseen?
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Jan 19, 2023 23:10
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Triple A posted:haetko tällä paskalla paikkaa seuraavaan terijoen hallitukseen? kuhan hörähtelen tunareille
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Jan 19, 2023 23:44
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lollontee posted:in 1938, at the same moment as the finnish foreign minister (väinö voiomaa iirc) was telling molotov that finland had no plans to seek foreign military guarantees, the finnish embassador in sweden was asking stalin's spy in the british embassy to inquire about the possibility of military guarantees in the event of a soviet invasion Viipurin miehittäminen oli aivan käsittämätön humanitaarinen katastrofi. Se tarkoitti kymmenen prosentin suomalaisen väestön siirtoa pois kotikonnuiltaan. Oliko kansakuntien arkkitehdillä ja ihmissielujen insinöörillä syyt tehdä tällaiset siirrot? Jos haikailet jotenkin tällaisilla avauksilla paluuta YYA-aikaan, niin niiltähän vedettiin Vladimir Putinin toimesta matot alta kun hän käynnisti genosiidisen sotansa Ukrainan kansaa vastaan.
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Jan 20, 2023 00:29
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lollontee posted:in 1938, at the same moment as the finnish foreign minister (väinö voiomaa iirc) was telling molotov that finland had no plans to seek foreign military guarantees, the finnish embassador in sweden was asking stalin's spy in the british embassy to inquire about the possibility of military guarantees in the event of a soviet invasion
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Jan 20, 2023 00:49
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Rappaport posted:Sweden throughout the Cold War "counted on" Finland to buy them a week or two, and I suppose after Sweden finally scrapped their atom bomb program in the seventies they sort of figured NATO would create a sufficient kerfuffle with the Soviets that Sweden wouldn't have to pull their own weight. And of course everyone knew that "modern warfare" in the Cold War sense would just destroy absolutely everything and it didn't really make a lot of sense to prepare for a prolonged struggle. NATO would've nuked Finland to stop the Soviet conventional forces from marching to Norway through Lapland, and the Soviets made a lot of noise in the 60's and 70's about nuking Norway and Denmark if they looked at the Soviets funny. Essentially none of this is actually true. The Swedish Cold War defense planning never actually counted on NATO as such. The high level under-the-table cooperation existed, but was so secret and confined to the highest levels of command that anyone who'd actually be commanding in the field wouldn't know about it. There was certainly an assumption in Swedish military planning that a Soviet invasion was not going to exclusively target Sweden (the much-maligned "margin doctrine"), but without this assumption it would have been almost meaningless to have a military defense because it could never really preserve our independence anyway. The actual Swedish Cold War defense planning did prepare for a prolonged struggle (one very obvious example of this being very detailed plans for wartime production of munitions and supplies on timescales measured in months and years) and did assume that the conflict would continue despite nuclear weapons being deployed, and in fact the explicit Swedish policy of never surrendering under any circumstances was the only deterrence we had against nuclear weapons. It was not a particularly palatable deterrent, but it was what we had. As for Finland, the views shifted back and forth several times during the Cold War but defense planners generally felt they could not rule out the risk of Finland submitting to Soviet demands, and trust levels were rather low at times. At higher levels there may have been secret informal understandings, and there are - for example - persistent rumors that a number of Draken fighters were kept in storage after they had been decomissioned from the Swedish air force, specifically because they were earmarked for transfer to Finland in the event of war (since the Finnish air force also operated the Draken), but this has never really been substantiated as far as I know. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Jan 20, 2023 |
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Jan 20, 2023 01:57
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lollontee posted:in 1938, at the same moment as the finnish foreign minister (väinö voiomaa iirc) was telling molotov that finland had no plans to seek foreign military guarantees, the finnish embassador in sweden was asking stalin's spy in the british embassy to inquire about the possibility of military guarantees in the event of a soviet invasion lollontee posted:in the event of a soviet invasion lollontee posted:soviet invasion This is not the "gotcha" you think it is. Jesus loving Christ, how stupid you are. Also, don't try that "iirc" poo poo, you know or recall gently caress-all, everyone knows you're furiously trawling Wikipedia.
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Jan 20, 2023 06:23
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TheFluff posted:As for Finland, the views shifted back and forth several times during the Cold War but defense planners generally felt they could not rule out the risk of Finland submitting to Soviet demands, and trust levels were rather low at times. At higher levels there may have been secret informal understandings, and there are - for example - persistent rumors that a number of Draken fighters were kept in storage after they had been decomissioned from the Swedish air force, specifically because they were earmarked for transfer to Finland in the event of war (since the Finnish air force also operated the Draken), but this has never really been substantiated as far as I know. You almost had me going there for a bit, but this? Svärje's official policy was to have Kekkonen's back, and Sweden several times made threats to the USSR that they would back off from their stated policy of neutrality if the USSR chose to gently caress with Finland. Of course a lot of this changed with Palme's aspirations towards being a world power, but the principle remained.
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Jan 20, 2023 07:13
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I for one welcome the 200 marines that will come over to train once a year vs 2000 VDV soldiers taking my laundry machine.
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Jan 20, 2023 08:38
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lollontee posted:kuhan hörähtelen tunareille Mitä jos sen sijaan vastaisit sinulle esitettyihin suoriin kysymyksiin? Koska tuollainen säälittävä väistely kertoo vaan siitä että itsekin tiedostat ettei millään väitteelläsi ole mitään pohjaa. Ei ehkä kannata muiden väittelytaidoista mankua tai valehdella olevasi vilpitön kun koko väittelyn konsepti on sinulta hukassa? lollontee posted:in 1938, at the same moment as the finnish foreign minister (väinö voiomaa iirc) was telling molotov that finland had no plans to seek foreign military guarantees, the finnish embassador in sweden was asking stalin's spy in the british embassy to inquire about the possibility of military guarantees in the event of a soviet invasion Koska ihan oikeasti, mihinkä vittuun tämä edes liittyy?
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Jan 20, 2023 08:50
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DarkCrawler posted:Mitä jos sen sijaan vastaisit sinulle esitettyihin suoriin kysymyksiin? Koska tuollainen säälittävä väistely kertoo vaan siitä että itsekin tiedostat ettei millään väitteelläsi ole mitään pohjaa. Ei ehkä kannata muiden väittelytaidoista mankua tai valehdella olevasi vilpitön kun koko väittelyn konsepti on sinulta hukassa? hän väittää että ennakkokyselyt asioista oikeuttaa stalinin rajojensiirtoa ja vallanvaihdon yritystä, koska näköjään se mikä muuten olisi täysin tuomittavaa jos kyseessä olisi mikä tahansa muu suurvalta onkin täysin oikeutettua kun tämä verenhimoinen tsaari käyttää vähän eri retoriikkaa kun muut mokomat ja sitten ihmetellään miksi hänenlaisista kapoista ei pidetä
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Jan 20, 2023 09:18
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lollontee posted:in 1938, at the same moment as the finnish foreign minister (väinö voiomaa iirc) was telling molotov that finland had no plans to seek foreign military guarantees, the finnish embassador in sweden was asking stalin's spy in the british embassy to inquire about the possibility of military guarantees in the event of a soviet invasion Suomen tekemisillä ei ollut tuossa vaiheessa mitään väliä koska se mikä Neuvostoliittoa huolestutti oli Saksa, ei Suomi itsessään. Ja tulevaisuudessa, jos Venäjää huolestuttaa jokin Suomen suhteen se on NATO eikä Suomi itsessään, mutta Venäjä on jo ajanut Suomen NATOhon. Ja samaahan se on tehnyt aina, eli tehnyt omat turvallisuus ongelmat ratkaisuillaan pahemmaksi. Aleksanteri III:n aika kaudella Venäjän Keisarikunnassa tehtiin väestönlaskenta ja tulos oli että Venäläiset on vähemmistö ja ratkaisu asiaan oli venäläistämispolitiikka joka heitti bensaa joka nurkan nationalismille ja varmasti oli osasyynä siihen minkä takia imperiumi romahti niin kuin teki. Stalin oli huolissaan Saksasta ja teoillaan varmisti että Suomi otti osaa Operaatio Barbarossaan. Ja vaikka olen sitä mieltä että NATOn laajeneminen Neuvostoliiton hajauttamisen jälkeen on aivan varmasti suurena syynä siihen minkä takia viime vuosikymmenten ja tämän päivän konflikteja käydään niin Venäjä on joka vaiheessa reagoinut tavalla joka oikeuttaa NATOn olemassaolon. Sulla on varmasti epävarma olo niinkuin kaikilla muillakin tämän Ukrainan sodan johdosta ja mihin se johtaa. On mullakin.
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Jan 20, 2023 09:42
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Triple A posted:hän väittää että ennakkokyselyt asioista oikeuttaa stalinin rajojensiirtoa ja vallanvaihdon yritystä, koska näköjään se mikä muuten olisi täysin tuomittavaa jos kyseessä olisi mikä tahansa muu suurvalta onkin täysin oikeutettua kun tämä verenhimoinen tsaari käyttää vähän eri retoriikkaa kun muut mokomat ööh, onko sulla oikeesti niin kova tarve keksiä ihmisiä joita tuomita, et pitää kehittää tommosia kuvitelmia toisten salaisista mielipiteistä? mitään tommosta en oo sanonu, tai koskaan uskonut, niin mun on vaan vähä vaikee ymmärtää et mitä sää tälläsellä projektion parodialla oikeen tavottelet. Elukka posted:The dastardly Finn perfidiously seeking security against the imminent invasion that did in fact happen. yeah, exactly, it's a direct provocation for war. you can't do the kind of diplomatic poo poo that finland pulled before the winter war, and expect to get back anything except suspicion and hostility. especially since you know that guy you're negotiating with is a proud paranoid that reacts to all suspicion with violence. my argument is that finnish political leadership completely hosed up Warden posted:Also, don't try that "iirc" poo poo, you know or recall gently caress-all, everyone knows you're furiously trawling Wikipedia. stephen kotkin's biography of stalin, 2nd volume Grimnarsson posted:Suomen tekemisillä ei ollut tuossa vaiheessa mitään väliä koska se mikä Neuvostoliittoa huolestutti oli Saksa, ei Suomi itsessään. Ja tulevaisuudessa, jos Venäjää huolestuttaa jokin Suomen suhteen se on NATO eikä Suomi itsessään, mutta Venäjä on jo ajanut Suomen NATOhon. Ja samaahan se on tehnyt aina, eli tehnyt omat turvallisuus ongelmat ratkaisuillaan pahemmaksi. niin siis suomi tekee ratkaisuillaan obgelmat pahemmiksi vai? toisekseen, toi on kehäpäätelmä. suomen ulkopoliittiset mokailut aiheuttaa huolta ja epäilystä, jolloin he reagoivat negatiivisesti, mikä oikeuttaa reaktioon johtaneen provokaation jälkeenpäin.
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Jan 20, 2023 11:37
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lollontee posted:
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Jan 20, 2023 12:08
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lollontee posted:yeah, exactly, it's a direct provocation for war. you can't do the kind of diplomatic poo poo that finland pulled before the winter war, and expect to get back anything except suspicion and hostility. especially since you know that guy you're negotiating with is a proud paranoid that reacts to all suspicion with violence. my argument is that finnish political leadership completely hosed up Proud paranoid abusive husband that reacts to all suspicion with violence sees that his partner has been googling the contact information of safe homes after hacking the partner's computer. This was a direct provocation for the husband to become violent against the partner. The partner completely hosed is the logical interpretation of events and saying that the partner's actions were rational is just circular reasoning because it was the googling the safe house contact information that actually started the unfortunate violence.
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Jan 20, 2023 12:14
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Circular reasoning that always ends in Russia simply reacting in response to other nations doing bad things like a flying reed in the wind while being otherwise benign and friendly. I suppose if Allies had already been formed as a military alliance of US/UK and France lollontee of 1939 would be yelling about how we shouldn't accept their eager offer of membership because kind ol' Uncle Joe might take it as a slight  and launch a war of conquest! You know, besides all those other wars of conquest they had launched and the one they were telegraphing pretty heavy towards Finland. The primary motivation of Finland should always be...Russia? Even if Russia is a dying fascist genocidal kleptocratic conservative dictatorship? Real good leftism there, Che. Seriously, detail exactly what the gently caress Russia has to offer its friends that being Hungary no. 2 and continuing to resist both sanctions and expansion of NATO, and enrage EU in the process would bring to Finland? More cheap fossil energy? Gee it's not like we are planning to get rid of that anyway. Should we still maintain a 1960s level oil dependent industry and infrastructure because not buying it might enrage Putin? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 12:31 on Jan 20, 2023 |
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Jan 20, 2023 12:25
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lollontee posted:yeah, exactly, it's a direct provocation for war. you can't do the kind of diplomatic poo poo that finland pulled before the winter war, and expect to get back anything except suspicion and hostility. especially since you know that guy you're negotiating with is a proud paranoid that reacts to all suspicion with violence. my argument is that finnish political leadership completely hosed up Before the Winter War, Finland didn't really know that Josif Stalin had decided, in good friendship with his fellow genocidal dictator Adolf Hitler, that Finland was a part of Josif's "sphere of dominion" and as such he should just invade. It didn't work out that well for him, and this changed Hitler's opinion of Stalin to boot, but Stalin didn't know any of that poo poo when he ordered the Winter War!
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Jan 20, 2023 12:27
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drat the Finnish leadership for giving Stalin the "sought military assurances" Casus Belli! Haven't those loving morons played HOI4, he would have never attacked and taken the diplomatic bad modifiers by engaging in unprovoked war  lollontee posted:yeah, exactly, it's a direct provocation for war. you can't do the kind of diplomatic poo poo that finland pulled before the winter war, and expect to get back anything except suspicion and hostility. especially since you know that guy you're negotiating with is a proud paranoid that reacts to all suspicion with violence. my argument is that finnish political leadership completely hosed up lollontee posted:
"Stalin was not known for invading nations or dealing with his enemies without provocation" is the understanding you gleaned from this book you obviously just Googled because roflmao DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Jan 20, 2023 |
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Jan 20, 2023 12:49
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Glah posted:Proud paranoid abusive husband that reacts to all suspicion with violence sees that his partner has been googling the contact information of safe homes after hacking the partner's computer. This was a direct provocation for the husband to become violent against the partner. The partner completely hosed is the logical interpretation of events and saying that the partner's actions were rational is just circular reasoning because it was the googling the safe house contact information that actually started the unfortunate violence. i do not think domestic violence and geopolitical diplomacy fuckups are even remotely comparable situations
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Jan 20, 2023 12:54
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lollontee posted:i do not think domestic violence and geopolitical diplomacy fuckups are even remotely comparable situations Suspicion and Hostility were the guys that sat on Stalin's shoulders most of his life because they had executed the angel and the devil in a mock loving trial when he was like three years old. Please, oh great leftist geopolitical scholar, what were the ways Finland could have brought any other emotions from Joseph loving Stalin? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 13:04 on Jan 20, 2023 |
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Jan 20, 2023 12:59
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DarkCrawler posted:Circular reasoning that always ends in Russia simply reacting in response to other nations doing bad things like a flying reed in the wind while being otherwise benign and friendly. I suppose if Allies had already been formed as a military alliance of US/UK and France lollontee of 1939 would be yelling about how we shouldn't accept their eager offer of membership because kind ol' Uncle Joe might take it as a slight funny, according to Vishnevsky, Churchill told Ivan Maisky that "your demands with regards to finland are completely reasonable", and he would be glad to see finland fall into the soviet sphere of influence, instead of the german one
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Jan 20, 2023 13:08
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settle down, dorkcrawl
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Jan 20, 2023 13:10
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Mitäs jos menisitte vaikka töihin tai jotain?
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Jan 20, 2023 13:11
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ripulipäivä (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 20, 2023 13:12
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lollontee posted:ripulipäivä joo, selvästi
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Jan 20, 2023 13:15
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lollontee posted:funny, according to Vishnevsky, Churchill told Ivan Maisky that "your demands with regards to finland are completely reasonable", and he would be glad to see finland fall into the soviet sphere of influence, instead of the german one Isn't Churchill a capitalist genocider? Funny you should pick him out.
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Jan 20, 2023 13:20
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Rappaport posted:Isn't Churchill a capitalist genocider? Funny you should pick him out. pick him out of what? soup?
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Jan 20, 2023 13:22
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lollontee posted:i do not think domestic violence and geopolitical diplomacy fuckups are even remotely comparable situations A is a violent and paranoid entity and B is relatively powerless entity within A's sphere of influence. B covertly seeking safety from A is a direct provocation towards A. B hosed up and A responding with violence is the logical outcome of events. Saying that B's actions were rational is circular reasoning because it was seeking safety from violent and paranoid entity that initiated the violence. Now in domestic violence situation you'd hopefully see that this is pretty hosed up conclusion to arrive at. But when talking about entities being nations and how that violence meant the death and maiming of hundreds of thousands of people, that conclusion becomes logical? I don't think that that Stalin quote we all learned from Operation Flashpoint about the death of one person being a tragedy and million being a statistic was meant to be a guideline for your world view...
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Jan 20, 2023 13:22
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lollontee posted:pick him out of what? soup? Your wikipedia soup, apparently. But do explain why you feel Churchill was a good friend of Finland!
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Jan 20, 2023 13:24
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Glah posted:But when talking about entities being nations and how that violence meant the death and maiming of hundreds of thousands of people, that conclusion becomes logical? hundreds of thousands of dead human beings does change the moral calculations for the optimal choice of approach a little bit, yes
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Jan 20, 2023 13:26
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Rappaport posted:Your wikipedia soup, apparently. But do explain why you feel Churchill was a good friend of Finland! i don't?
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Jan 20, 2023 13:26
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