(Thread IKs:
Nenonen)
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What should the presidential powers be in 2020? This poll is closed. |
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| UNLIMITED!!!! URKKI 2.0!!!!!! |
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3 | 23.08% |
| Sauli should be allowed to telecast to our homes whenever he pleases, but that should be the limit. |
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2 | 15.38% |
| He should be limited to writing mildly worded letters to HBL and other provincial newspapers. |
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2 | 15.38% |
| None. More power to Sanna & Katri & Maria & Li & Anna-Maja & Jenni! |
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2 | 15.38% |
| Unlimited, but every decision must be subject to a plebiscite. |
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0 | 0% |
| None, but the president's life must be video streamed 24 /7 for the duration of their term, with no censorship. |
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4 | 30.77% |
| Total: | 13 votes | ||
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Elukka posted:There is another option besides bowing completely to Russia or allying with the US. It's staying officially neutral, which is what we've been doing for a long time. It means that we are subject to Russian military threats, with the threat of an attack hanging over us at all times, affecting our politics even if it never happens, especially when we join with the EU in doing anything Russia doesn't like. Historically, it means making concessions to Russia when they make demands. It requires maneuvering in the difficult space between "vassal state" and "invasion". This type of analysis tends to ignore the fact that when Finland had good relations with Russia, it also pre-supposed certain things of Russia. Nikita Hrutshev happened to like Kekkonen, and so we had good times, but when Russia is run by a mobster who begins genocides, we have less lee-way in maneuvering our big neighbour.
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Jan 20, 2023 15:16
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Elukka posted:It's staying officially neutral, which is what we've been doing for a long time. Back then NATO considered Finland enemy, because they couldn't be sure that "neutral" wouldn't turn "soviet friendly" or "soviet ally" during hostilities. And truth be told it propably would have.
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Jan 20, 2023 15:18
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lollontee posted:not getting involved in a nuclear exchange or having to send troops to next iraq invasion would be benefits. not-aggroing our much bigger superpower neighbour also springs to mind as a benefit, if we do not join NATO. also trade relations, natural resources at very competetive prices mind Not getting involved in a nuclear exchange? Do...do you know where Saint Petersburg or also NATO joining Stockholm or also NATO member Tallinn is? How many nukes Russia and U.S. are fielding? Numerous NATO countries refused to invade Iraq. How old are you, honestly? Is Russia less or more likely to attack a NATO or or Non-NATO country? You can determine this by counting how many NATO countries they have invaded vs how many non-NATO countries they have invaded. Why is Russia aggroing some sort of existential crisis? What do you think this actor who you have painted as at the very minimum interested in friendly relations will do to us that it hasn't done to I don't know, loving Latvia or something  Do you understand that not participating in sanctions and at the very minimum shilling for Russia because we are afraid of them "aggroing" would probably harm our trade relations with say, the European Union, who believe or not are bigger trade partners with us than Russia? Also United States who believe or not are bigger trade partners with us than Russia? What is it about trade with Russia that somehow trumps our trade with countries that are antagonistic with Russia? Or are you saying participating in sanctions would not aggro Russia enough for it to resort to military threats? Natural resources at a cheaper rate? So becoming overly reliant in oil and natural gas in the face of climate change and green energy transition is an advantage to you? Explain how.
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Jan 20, 2023 15:19
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Elukka posted:There is another option besides bowing completely to Russia or allying with the US. It's staying officially neutral, which is what we've been doing for a long time. It means that we are subject to Russian military threats, with the threat of an attack hanging over us at all times, affecting our politics even if it never happens, especially when we join with the EU in doing anything Russia doesn't like. Historically, it means making concessions to Russia when they make demands. It requires maneuvering in the difficult space between "vassal state" and "invasion". This is the solution that I think would be the best. Although I disagree with the threat of invasion from Russia, there hasn't even been any demands from Russia since they went capitalist in the 90s. Continuing with the EU sanctions while Russia is continuing the war is the best move going forward and it doesn't require us allying with an another aggressive empire to do them(unless you consider France one).
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Jan 20, 2023 15:22
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Elukka posted:There is another option besides bowing completely to Russia or allying with the US. It's staying officially neutral, which is what we've been doing for a long time. It means that we are subject to Russian military threats, with the threat of an attack hanging over us at all times, affecting our politics even if it never happens, especially when we join with the EU in doing anything Russia doesn't like. Historically, it means making concessions to Russia when they make demands. It requires maneuvering in the difficult space between "vassal state" and "invasion". but we haven't been under a russian military thread for over 60 years. what benefit does NATO give over keeping our neutrality, as it is?
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Jan 20, 2023 15:25
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Fated To Be Fat posted:This is the solution that I think would be the best. Although I disagree with the threat of invasion from Russia, there hasn't even been any demands from Russia since they went capitalist in the 90s. Continuing with the EU sanctions while Russia is continuing the war is the best move going forward and it doesn't require us allying with an another aggressive empire to do them(unless you consider France one). By continuing with sanctions we are already allying with an aggressive empire. The EU itself is an empire, just because it has outsourced war logistics to another one doesn't mean it isn't one. And have you missed what France is doing in French Africa or is that not aggressively imperialistic enough for you? lollontee posted:but we haven't been under a russian military thread for over 60 years I beg to disagree, every thread is militantly Russian with your weak rear end posting in it.
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Jan 20, 2023 15:25
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settle down dorkhitler
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Jan 20, 2023 15:27
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lollontee posted:settle down dorkhitler  You can answer direct questions or you can keep dodging them and I will keep making fun of your histrionics.
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Jan 20, 2023 15:28
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Russia is more likely to attack nations that have applied to join NATO, tho
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Jan 20, 2023 15:32
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The problem with neutrality policy is that Finland isn't neutral, hasn't really been since -95. We aren't in a military alliance, but through EU we aren't neutral foreign policy -wise. So we are doing policies that are hostile to Russia, like sanctions, at this very moment, but unlike most other EU countries, we don't have concrete security guarantees. So really to act like a truly neutral state, we'd have to cut ties to EU and hope that Russia respects our neutrality and we'd make up the costs incurred by Fixit by trade with Russia. Or become an pariah within EU that doesn't support sanctions or EU policy against Russia, kinda like Hungary or something. But then what's the point of being in the EU in the first place if we lose the little power we had to affect policy and our trade relations with them takes a nosedive? Currently Finland really has the worst of both worlds: we aren't neutral but we don't have the benefits of military alliance either. Rational choices are that either we break with EU and take control of our foreign policy back to strive for true neutrality, or we continue with EU and join a military alliance. Finnish policy for the longest time was to support and deepen European military co-operation and maybe create a true EU military alliance to go past the problem of NATO membership. With criticism of American foreign policy taking hold in Europe after the Iraq war and more recently Trump's ascension and antipathy towards NATO, there was a real chance of European solution moving forward. But then Russia started a war of aggression in Europe and Biden won the elections so time simply ran out for any talks of EU military alliance. NATO became the only logical framework in which to organize European defense.
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Jan 20, 2023 15:45
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lollontee posted:Russia is more likely to attack nations that have applied to join NATO, tho kiva kun oot samaa mieltä että nyt on paras hetki liittyä natoon
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Jan 20, 2023 15:48
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Warden posted:Voi jeesus vitun kristus. tarkistin ja oikeassahan olit, kotkin ei tarkemmin mainitse, mitä kautta Stalin sai tietää Suomen turvatakuiden hakemisista, mainitsee vaan "London Officen" ja saksalaisten toivotukset antautumisesta
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Jan 20, 2023 15:48
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Andrast posted:kiva kun oot samaa mieltä että nyt on paras hetki liittyä natoon juuh, meni tosi hyvin georgian ja ukrainan yrittäessä samaa
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Jan 20, 2023 15:49
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Glah posted:The problem with neutrality policy is that Finland isn't neutral, hasn't really been since -95. We aren't in a military alliance, but through EU we aren't neutral foreign policy -wise. So we are doing policies that are hostile to Russia, like sanctions, at this very moment, but unlike most other EU countries, we don't have concrete security guarantees. neutrality isn't an absolute state of being though, you can be more or less neutral, and russia would prefer we remain more neutral by not joining NATO, and Russia also wants to sell the EU things. they do not want a war, they wanna sell gas to us
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Jan 20, 2023 15:51
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lollontee posted:juuh, meni tosi hyvin georgian ja ukrainan yrittäessä samaa Onko meidän siis syytä pysyä erossa NATOsta koska hyväntahtoinen ja geopoliittisesti viisas Vladimir saattaa tehdä myös meitä kohtaan genosiidisen sotilasoperaation? lollontee posted:Russia is more likely to attack nations that have applied to join NATO, tho
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Jan 20, 2023 15:51
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Rappaport posted:Onko meidän siis syytä pysyä erossa NATOsta koska hyväntahtoinen ja geopoliittisesti viisas Vladimir saattaa tehdä myös meitä kohtaan genosiidisen sotilasoperaation? öö, joo?
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Jan 20, 2023 15:53
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niinku, juu, isomman naapurin kanssa kannattaa olla hyvät välit, varsinkin ko kysymyksessä on jokin niin typerä juttu ko NATOn liittyminen
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Jan 20, 2023 15:54
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lollontee posted:öö, joo? Toisin sanoen, ainoa syy olla ystävällinen Venäjän kanssa on, että he saattaisivat ruveta kansanmurhaan ja hyökkäyssotaan? Tämä on aika kaukana siitä argumentaatiosta missä Venäjä oli vain raukkaparka joka tekee vain mitä pitää välttyäkseen... No, tätä kohtaa ei taidettu ikinä täsmentää, mutta selvästi Venäjällä oli jokin helvetin hyvä syy kansanmurhaan. Muutoinhan sinä et sitä puolustaisi, eikös vain?
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Jan 20, 2023 15:55
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lollontee posted:tsekkaan kuhan kotio pääsen oliko se kotkinilta vai joltain muulta, mutta ongelmana näkisin ensijaisesti, että mikä tämä syytös niinku tarkalleen oli? vaikea nääs luikerrella muutes, ku ei tiiä. Stalin tiesi suomen yrityksistä hankkia turvatakuita kolmansilta valloilta ja se provosoi häntä, vai oliko asia mielestäsi toisin? Muistaakseni Kotkin käsittelee Suomea (ainakin näissä viimeisissä Stalinia koskevissa teoksissa) aika vähän. Ja joskaan se minkä käsittelee ei laita Stalinia ainakaan perinteisessä mielessä huonompaan valoon (kenties jopa parempaan!) niin ei se aseta mitään syyllisyyttä Suomellekaan ja miksipä laittaisi? Sikäli kuin kirjasta muistan niin Stalinia ei provosoinut Suomen osalta mikään (Suomen hallituksen itsepäisyys ehkä vitutti), kyse oli puhtaasti Leningradin turvaamisesta Saksasta kohdistuvaa uhkaa vastaan.
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Jan 20, 2023 15:59
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Grimnarsson posted:Suomen hallituksen itsepäisyys ehkä vitutti no eikö tämä juuri ollut se mun argumenttini? että oli tyhmää vittuilla stalinille?
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Jan 20, 2023 16:04
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Venäjä ei hyökkää nato maihin, mutta se hyökkää maihin jotka pyrkivät natoon ennen kuin nimmarit on paperilla. Eli natossa on turva, mutta sinne pääseminen on vaikea tehtävä. Tästähän seuraa se, että Suomen kannattaa odottaa, että joku Venäjän naapureista pyrkii natoon, ne hyökkää sinne, jää umpijumiin menettäen merkittävän osan tehokkaimmista sotavoimistaan, ja tässä välissä pyritään natoon kun Venäjä ei ehdi tulla tänne varastamaan pesukoneita. Harmi Ukrainan puolesta, mutta näyttää vahvasti siltä, että Marinin hallitus ajoitti natoon menon täydellisesti. Ollaan ihan just pääsemässä kotipesälle turvaan kun Putinilla on kädet täynnä koittaessaan polttaa Ukrainaa. Nyt täytyy vaan toivoa ettei Erdogan kamppaa meitä viime hetkellä..
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Jan 20, 2023 16:04
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lollontee posted:no eikö tämä juuri ollut se mun argumenttini? että oli tyhmää vittuilla stalinille? Josif Stalin sopi Adolf Hitlerin kanssa elokuussa 1939 että Josif Stalin saisi rauhassa hyökätä Suomeen. Mikä tässä on niin vaikeaa käsittää?
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Jan 20, 2023 16:05
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Glah posted:Nyt täytyy vaan toivoa että Erdogan kamppaa meitä viime hetkellä..
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Jan 20, 2023 16:16
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Jan 20, 2023 16:21
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lollontee posted:Russia is more likely to attack nations that have applied to join NATO, tho How many nations that have applied to join NATO has Russia attacked? lollontee posted:niinku, juu, isomman naapurin kanssa kannattaa olla hyvät välit, varsinkin ko kysymyksessä on jokin niin typerä juttu ko NATOn liittyminen Miksi? Mikä etu meille on hyvistä väleistä Venäjän kanssa ja miten sanktiot ja aselähetykset Ukrainaan eivät ole jo rikkoneet noita hyviä välejä? lollontee posted:no eikö tämä juuri ollut se mun argumenttini? että oli tyhmää vittuilla stalinille? Olisiko Stalinilta mitään ei-vittumaista reaktiota ollut odotettavissa? Miksi? Kato kun ne argumentit pitää jotenkin perustella. Jos ihan oikeasti yrität selittää että Suomen "vittuilu" johti neuvosto-invaasioon niin tarvitset ehkä jotain muutakin argumenttisi tueksi kun väitteen siitä et joskus luit kirjaa jossa oli stalin, kultapieni DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Jan 20, 2023 |
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Jan 20, 2023 16:40
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lollontee posted:ripulipäivä  HEALTH ALERT Comrades, there turns out to be an acute diarrhea epidemic in the thread. Possible symptoms are:
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Jan 20, 2023 17:05
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fine by me at this point
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Jan 20, 2023 17:12
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Se leipomohomma olikin vähän astetta jännempi keissi:Iltapaska posted:Leipomoyritys Amissa Oy:n yrittäjä Matti Janhosta epäillään törkeästä terveyden vaarantamisesta ja törkeästä petoksesta. Poliisi epäilee, että yrityksen tuotteita on myyty väärillä tiedoilla valtakunnallisille kauppaketjuille. – On erehdytetty asianomistajia ja sitä kautta saatu taloudellista hyötyä, kertoo epäilyistä rikoskomisario Kari Aaltio Sisä-Suomen poliisista. Poliisi huomioi, että törkeä terveyden vaarantaminen on niin sanotusti ylitörkeä rikos, mistä minimi rangaistus on kaksi vuotta ja maksimirangaistus 10 vuotta vankeutta. Kannatti varmaan. Ideana kai oli se että pyöritetään paskaa leipomoa vuosi ja sitten suksitaan vittuun maasta mutta ei sitten ilmeisesti ihan menny putkeen.
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Jan 20, 2023 17:12
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Liiku nopeesti ja riko juttui. Niinhän se toimii?
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Jan 20, 2023 17:29
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No surprises for Persus but I got to be wondering about the people who believe black people are genetically inferior yet stick with say, Left Alliance. Super-racist old stalinists? People thinking the white man's burden will be solved at last through space communism? Error in clicking the answer? https://www.iltalehti.fi/politiikka/a/cf58ac79-7d77-4530-9cfb-3eac9e36c48b
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Jan 21, 2023 08:56
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DarkCrawler posted:No surprises for Persus but I got to be wondering about the people who believe black people are genetically inferior yet stick with say, Left Alliance. Super-racist old stalinists? People thinking the white man's burden will be solved at last through space communism? Error in clicking the answer? There's some percentage of any demographic that believes in anything. I could find you a black immigrant who agrees that black africans are dummies and replacement theory is true (I will not buy them an account, though). It's interesting though that Kok voters are more racist than Keps. The usual stereotype is that Koks are better educated, more urban and more cosmopolitan. Mind you, it's still a small fragment and small difference, but Kok voters are more racist and Kepu voters less racist than average??
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Jan 21, 2023 10:40
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DarkCrawler posted:Super-racist old stalinists? People thinking the white man's burden will be solved at last through space communism? I think it's these two. Being solidly old-school left-wing does not rule out being racist. A common union-busting tactic in the US back in the day was hiring black laborers when the white workers had managed to organize an union and go on strike. And it worked like a charm, and caused conflicts among the workers and sometimes outbreaks of horrible racial violence. Also, some people who think themselves as progressive might genuinely, in their heart of hearts, think that certain groups of people are inferior to them in some way, but it shouldn't matter and they should be provided for. Those people would be shocked if you called them racist for that, and claim they cannot be racist since they do not dislike, hate or want to drive away the less able groups, but take care of them.
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Jan 21, 2023 10:45
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Warden posted:Also, some people who think themselves as progressive might genuinely, in their heart of hearts, think that certain groups of people are inferior to them in some way, but it shouldn't matter and they should be provided for. Those people would be shocked if you called them racist for that, and claim they cannot be racist since they do not dislike, hate or want to drive away the less able groups, but take care of them. thinking that somalian immigrants are disadvantaged and prone to violence due to national traumas caused by decades of civil war isn't a racist opinion, and one that i hear a lot from from other africans.
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Jan 21, 2023 10:49
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Nenonen posted:There's some percentage of any demographic that believes in anything. I could find you a black immigrant who agrees that black africans are dummies and replacement theory is true (I will not buy them an account, though). If a Kepu voter is racist, they're a Pers.
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Jan 21, 2023 10:52
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most kepu voters have probably never seen a black man in their lives, and thus have reason to care
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Jan 21, 2023 10:54
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lollontee posted:thinking that somalian immigrants are disadvantaged and prone to violence due to national traumas caused by decades of civil war isn't a racist opinion, and one that i hear a lot from from other africans. That is not the same as believing they are genetically inferior, which is what DarkCrawler was talking about.
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Jan 21, 2023 10:59
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I guess kepu reflects the legacy of evangelist missions to Africa, maybe? Finnish evangelism is relatively proud for that effort, especially in pretty much converting half of Namibia into Lutheranism. Probably a bigger percentage of people who have maybe actually interacted with a black person beyond services or at least have a more idealized picture. Combined with the historical lack of specifically anti-black racism being the main motivating factor of the large part of Christian churches like in the U.S. Many Christians are anti-racist specifically due to Christian belief, and personally I have found many pro-refugee Helluntalaiset back when I visit my folks in Kepulandia. If your main motivation is conversion than it sort of pays to view every warm body as a convert. Mainstream Lutheranism is more about conservation of the existing Christian society and dumping THEIR babies in the water as opposed to shoving Bibles in the face of everyone who can read. Kokkari racists are probably not evangelical ones I'd imagine plus they got rid of only one Rydman.
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Jan 21, 2023 11:17
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DarkCrawler posted:Many Christians are anti-racist specifically due to Christian belief, and personally I have found many pro-refugee Helluntalaiset back when I visit my folks in Kepulandia. If your main motivation is conversion than it sort of pays to view every warm body as a convert. Back when I worked with immigrants/refugees, a lot of them were approached by Helluntailaiset and even Lestadiolaiset and invited to their various get-togethers. Even some of the Muslims.
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Jan 21, 2023 11:22
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Plus in a rural setting people have other interests with regards to immigration. Vegetable farmers will happily hire anyone with two eyes and two hands for the harvest and would be in trouble without foreigners. And the Back Chamber Boys probably wouldn't mind a black import waifu any more than a Thai one.
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Jan 21, 2023 11:28
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Nenonen posted:Plus in a rural setting people have other interests with regards to immigration. Vegetable farmers will happily hire anyone with two eyes and two hands for the harvest and would be in trouble without foreigners. And the Back Chamber Boys probably wouldn't mind a black import waifu any more than a Thai one. i have one african acquintance in who moved to Saarikylät, and they literally held a party at the marketplace to celebrate his arrival. the reception you get as a black man in finland can seemingly randomly range from "torches and pitchforks" to "we're so glad you've come", completely dependant on the average opinions of any particular farming community. another moved to tampere for work, at on the first day had one his coworkers come up asking for a handshake, saying that "he had never shook the hand of a black man before in his life". lollontee fucked around with this message at 11:35 on Jan 21, 2023 |
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Jan 21, 2023 11:32
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