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You think they jacked the arm blade idea from them tho
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Mar 11, 2023 08:27
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The perfect crime
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Mar 11, 2023 08:32
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Tae posted:I mean the later half when they just made stuff up because the manga wasn't done, and Rose became a major character alongside Scar who's also such a different character that he was one of the few major recasts for Brotherhood. the second half rocks
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Mar 11, 2023 13:29
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War and Pieces posted:the second half rocks It does have some of the best parts in the show, and I personally like some of the new Homunculi better than OG. Sloth being the Elric' mother sure beats "I'm the Hulk and talk about being tired all the time." Lust also has a whole character arc in this version.
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Mar 11, 2023 16:57
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Yeah I love the original even if the brotherhood is a more cohesive whole. I was pretty disappointed in lusts (lack of) a arc in fmab.
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Mar 11, 2023 20:04
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Omnicrom posted:I maintain that the big idea stuff in Season Two and onwards feels like where they always intended to go after Season One, but the execution was absolutely rough. It's still definitely worth a watch. Agreed, 00 S2 and the movie are more derided than they deserve.
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Mar 11, 2023 22:36
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Nah 00S2 is generic slop that assassinates a bunch of characters and has almost nothing interesting going compared to the first season. Good fights and mechs though. The movie has really cool ideas executed very bungled and for how much money was dumped into it it has some of the worst action in the franchise of just endless beams being sprayed into blobs and explosions with nothing resembling action choreography
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Mar 11, 2023 22:38
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I like the episode where Tieria wears a dress Very gender.  E: There seemed to be a bunch of gender stuff with the Innovades in general, especially Tieria and Regene. I mean, you don't put a lady looking Gundam inside of a guy-looking Gundam and name it after a Navajo two spirits gender identity without cooking something. Waffleman_ fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Mar 11, 2023 |
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Mar 11, 2023 22:45
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bring stabity
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Mar 11, 2023 22:49
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I'm working my way through the Origin manga, and it's stupid loving good.
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Mar 11, 2023 23:00
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Origin is legit. And it's also fun to imagine it as the way Char saw everything and how delusional he was.
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Mar 11, 2023 23:02
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Anshu posted:Agreed, 00 S2 and the movie are more derided than they deserve. I think 00 S2 is mediocre to decent at best; it doesn't have a patch on S1 and a lot of characterization is pretty bad/goes nowhere, but at least it has some cool fights and is relatively coherent. It's not great but it's also not anywhere near the dregs of the franchise like Divers or Destiny or AGE. The movie is pretty loving bad. It wastes an absolute shitload of time on stuff that goes absolutely nowhere. The entire fakeout with Fake Ribbons, Descartes Shaman's entire existence as a character including receiving an extended fight scene with his big battleship mobile armor for no functional purpose because he dies pointlessly and is never mentioned again, Allelujah and Marie having an extended chase sequence with ELS possessed jeeps that are trying to kill them for some reason(and the ensuing plot hole created by the movie later establishing that if any ELS make it to earth everyone is dead but the ELS were already there to possess jeeps to try to kill Allelujah, etc). When we finally get to the big conflict with the ELS, the very design of the ELS is absolute death to interesting fight choreography - they're featureless cones that kill you instantly on physical contact, meaning that none of the things that make mobile suit fight scenes look cool and good can be applied and most of the fighting consists of the protagonists shooting giant beams into mobs of cones that are trying to ram them. When the ELS start shifting into mobile suits, you see a little bit of fight choregraphy but they still have the whole "if they touch you you die instantly" thing going on so it's still a lot of beam shooting. None of the cool new movie designs really get to do anything neat; there's nothing remotely as cool as the final battle of 00S2, for example. The ideas behind the movie are neat and the rough plot outline isn't horrible but it's so full of terrible decisions.
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Mar 11, 2023 23:49
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Yeah the flashback stuff does get kinda Char wanky (though it also makes him seem like more of an rear end in a top hat and villain, so I'm still cool with it, makes it easier to digest CCA Char), but lol at the claims I've heard about it being zeon-wanky. Nothing makes me less likely to feel good about Zeon then full on seeing the gassing of Island Iffish.
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Mar 11, 2023 23:52
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Kanos posted:Descartes Shaman's entire existence as a character including receiving an extended fight scene with his big battleship mobile armor for no functional purpose because he dies pointlessly and is never mentioned again I won't defend the movie overly much, though I do enjoy seeing Zabanya poo poo out beams in various configurations, but Descartes exists for basically the same reason that Challia Bull exists; to show that just being a Newtype (or Newtype equivalent) with a huge mobile armor that has more and better weapons than the protagonist doesn't make a character an amazing pilot or infalliable. There's some degree of Scirocco and Haman reflected in him too, in that just being a true Newtype-equivalent like Setsuna doesn't automatically make you a good person either. Obviously Zeta and ZZ did more with them than 00 did with Descartes, but Descartes existed to setup that just because Setsuna was a true Innovator and had a really strong suit doesn't mean the conflict will automatically be solved because of those things; it's the fact Setsuna cares about communicating with the aliens and trying to establish peaceful contact that allows him to resolve it and not the fact he's an Innovator and has the strongest suit around at the time. Those things help obviously, but they wouldn't be enough on their own, so someone like Descartes or Ribbons would fail even if given access to that technology, because neither would ever contemplate communication and cooperation. His character isn't deep or anything, and he probably gets an undue amount of screen time just to fit in some action but I think the movie's plot would be poorer without him as a contrast to Setsuna.
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Mar 12, 2023 00:14
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Arc Hammer posted:Origin is legit. And it's also fun to imagine it as the way Char saw everything and how delusional he was. Not really cause sure The Origin does technically make Char more explicitly a "badass" but it also makes it a lot clearer than in the original show that he's a manipulative sociopathic rear end in a top hat who makes everything worse by his very existence
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Mar 12, 2023 02:17
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The way the Origin expands the universe contradictorally make it feel much smaller. That and the more psychotic nature of Char are the biggest critiques to level against it.
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Mar 12, 2023 02:21
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It contracts things with some of the coincidences and character roles, which does tend to happened with these kind of things unfortunately. But it had some of the best depictions of other stuff that made the universe feel larger and more fleshed out. Stuff like getting to see just what it was like in Side 3 as the Weimar Republic period boils over into Heil Zeon and whatnot. Also the various locations visited on earth actually resembling those earth places. Tomino rarely seems interested in showing that kind of societal level part of his plots, so I'm glad Yasuhiko went out of his way to fill those sorts of things in.
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Mar 12, 2023 02:33
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The movie feels like it's a meta-joke on so many levels but then they never said it was a joke so nobody took it as a joke and then they reveal afterwards that it isn't a joke. The marketing leading up to it leaned heavily on bits with Ribbons and Descartes and they're such nothings in the end because it's actually about aliens. The aliens being inimical to interesting choreography due to their alien nature (we made it look bad on purpose) and then mimicking and even surpassing humanity's own boring laserspam choreography with their own, showcasing how humanity's violence (albeit in self-defense) has taught the aliens the wrong thing, etc.
Argas fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Mar 12, 2023 |
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Mar 12, 2023 02:54
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The aristocratic subject matter makes the dumb coincidences read like Dumas or Dickens. I'm here for it.
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Mar 12, 2023 03:03
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War and Pieces posted:The aristocratic subject matter makes the dumb coincidences read like Dumas or Dickens. I'm here for it. it's something you catch glimpses of in the original series too, char's whole count of monte cristo deal endears him to the audience because it goes out of its way to show that the zabis are the most reprehensible part of their own government so you want char to win, but also to lose
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Mar 12, 2023 07:33
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Mister Olympus posted:it's something you catch glimpses of in the original series too, char's whole count of monte cristo deal endears him to the audience because it goes out of its way to show that the zabis are the most reprehensible part of their own government so you want char to win, but also to lose The Zabis basically are the entire government in the TV show, and there's nothing beyond them mentioned or shown so far as I recall. It's a complete autocracy, with Degwin as the nominal leader but having ceded all real power to Gihren prior to the show (with the implication it was GIhren who pushed to start the war, with maybe Kycilia) according to the narrator, and remaining as the state figurehead until Gihren kills him. There's a parliament mentioned in the 3rd movie, and one representative shown in Darcia Bakharov, but he makes it clear they have little real power even there. Then 0th MS Team has noble families like the Sahalins, so who knows how the gently caress the government is meant to be organized by then since there's an autocratic family leading an apparent constitutional monarchy at least in name that's presumably a holdover from the Republic of Zeon that Degwin took over from Deikun Zeon with a whole host of nobles under the monarchy despite even the Republic of Zeon only having been formed about 15/20 odd years before the story takes place. Is Aina meant to be a distant cousin to the Zabis, so that the nobles are the extended family of the Zabis? Or were they just appointed based on merit/cronyism? Either way, the noble families are extremely recent, and given that Ghineas is 27, he probably remembers a time before his family even were nobles despite acting like an entitled twatnozzle throughout the show as if he were raised from birth a noble. Hell, Aina presumably does too, even at 20 years old, since the Zabis only formed the Republic of Zeon into a "Duchy" (re: actually a monarchy; though I vaguely recall there being a reason they went with Duchy as the translation) when Char was a kid and he's 20 in the original show too. Edit: According to the Wikia's timeline, Deikun formed the Republic of Zeon in UC0062 and Degwin (probably) killed him and reformed the government into a Duchy under himself in UC0068. So the Principality is only 11 years old, meaning Ghineas was 16 years old when it was formed, and surely there were no nobles in the Republic of Zeon, so he can't have been a noble prior to that age. tsob fucked around with this message at 08:59 on Mar 12, 2023 |
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Mar 12, 2023 08:45
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tsob posted:The Zabis basically are the entire government in the TV show, and there's nothing beyond them mentioned or shown so far as I recall. It's a complete autocracy, with Degwin as the nominal leader but having ceded all real power to Gihren prior to the show (with the implication it was GIhren who pushed to start the war, with maybe Kycilia) according to the narrator, and remaining as the state figurehead until Gihren kills him. There's a parliament mentioned in the 3rd movie, and one representative shown in Darcia Bakharov, but he makes it clear they have little real power even there. Then 0th MS Team has noble families like the Sahalins, so who knows how the gently caress the government is meant to be organized by then since there's an autocratic family leading an apparent connotational monarchy at least in name that's presumably a holdover from the Republic of Zeon that Degwin took over from Deikun Zeon with a whole host of nobles under the monarchy despite even the Republic of Zeon only having been formed about 15/20 odd years before the story takes place. I know you'll insist that manga don't count, but they've done a lot to clarify how Zeon's system works. Basically, it's a constitutional monarchy, with the Zabi family as the monarchs. The major families are people who were influential and powerful in the pre-independence days, with people like the Fieseler family and the Rals having their pre-existing money and political influence formalized to an extent as one of the ways the Zabis could reward people who helped them in the early days. (And the Rals were presented as a major family before the Zabis took over, so it's clearly a pre-Zeon setup, further reinforced by there being pseudo-nobility in the Federation like the Yashimas.) People like Ginias were born with silver spoons in their mouths to begin with, so acting like even more of an entitled douchenozzel when it's formally recognized makes sense.
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Mar 12, 2023 09:18
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Southern Cassowary posted:Currently watching Gundam 00 for the first time. Seven episodes in. The CB Gundams aren't quite so bullshit overpowered as you think - they just subscribe to a different set of laws of physics than conventional mobile suits. But they are hard laws...
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Mar 12, 2023 14:48
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tsob posted:I won't defend the movie overly much, though I do enjoy seeing Zabanya poo poo out beams in various configurations, but Descartes exists for basically the same reason that Challia Bull exists; to show that just being a Newtype (or Newtype equivalent) with a huge mobile armor that has more and better weapons than the protagonist doesn't make a character an amazing pilot or infalliable. There's some degree of Scirocco and Haman reflected in him too, in that just being a true Newtype-equivalent like Setsuna doesn't automatically make you a good person either. Obviously Zeta and ZZ did more with them than 00 did with Descartes, but Descartes existed to setup that just because Setsuna was a true Innovator and had a really strong suit doesn't mean the conflict will automatically be solved because of those things; it's the fact Setsuna cares about communicating with the aliens and trying to establish peaceful contact that allows him to resolve it and not the fact he's an Innovator and has the strongest suit around at the time. Those things help obviously, but they wouldn't be enough on their own, so someone like Descartes or Ribbons would fail even if given access to that technology, because neither would ever contemplate communication and cooperation. His character isn't deep or anything, and he probably gets an undue amount of screen time just to fit in some action but I think the movie's plot would be poorer without him as a contrast to Setsuna. Setsuna is able to communicate with the ELS and stop the fight specifically because he has the strongest suit. The first time he meets them, he tries to communicate with them and fails completely and spends half of the movie in a coma specifically because if you don't have magic quantum GN tech on par with the QANT trying to communicate with the ELS will explode your head like a melon and they won't properly understand you anyway. It's really hard for me to read Descartes as some kind of dark counterpart to Setsuna, because the movie simply isn't really interested in exploring morality that way. There's never really an actual choice made between communication and conflict because the necessary method of communication is so esoteric that almost no one can try it. There's no clash of ideologies about whether fighting or talking is the solution because the "communication" faction, Celestial Being, is completely independent and siloed away from the "conflict" faction, the Federation, and both of them are working completely independently of each other and do not communicate about proposed solutions at any point before the end, and also CB is more than willing to weigh in and shoot a million ELS when Setsuna is in a coma and communication simply isn't an option. The movie clearly sees no moral quandary with having the "good guys" shoot a ton of alien cones rather than communicating, so why should I view Descartes as flawed for doing so? For a take on this kind of story that actually accomplishes what you seem to want Trailblazer to, try watching "Silicon Avatar" from Star Trek TNG - an episode about learning about and chasing after a horrific nightmarish planet-killing crystal life form that is utterly alien, and the moral quandary about killing it or communicating with it and with characters who have vested interests in both options and actual dialogue and conflict about which they should choose.
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Mar 12, 2023 16:58
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I didn't dislike 00 season 2 as much as I thought I would but that movie was rear end
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Mar 12, 2023 18:15
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I elected not to watch the 00 movie
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Mar 12, 2023 19:25
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I thought the reason why he succeeded the 2nd time was because Tiares took the mental load feedback.
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Mar 12, 2023 21:41
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Tae posted:I thought the reason why he succeeded the 2nd time was because Tiares took the mental load feedback. The Quantum Burst was necessary to actually achieve successful communication that both sides could understand. Tieria did help Setsuna manage the influx, but the 00 just didn't have the juice to actually bridge Setsuna's brain to the ELS successfully. Hell, even if the 00 had the juice and the QANT wasn't strictly needed(it was), that would still rule out almost anyone else attempting workable communication, because nobody else had a GN Burst/Trans Am Burst system to work with. Celestial Being not seriously communicating and coordinating with the Federation was a real head scratcher. Kanos fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Mar 12, 2023 |
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Mar 12, 2023 21:47
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Gundam needs to leave aliens to Macross/other properties, it simply does not jive well with the core elements of the franchise. 00 tried, and no thanks.
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Mar 13, 2023 15:08
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i am not willing to agree with that blanket statement without more evidence one way or the other
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Mar 13, 2023 15:28
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I haven't sat down and seen Trailblazer so it's hard to say but I think if Gundam was going to do alien contact in the future, doing it like that (menacing creatures, alien but with the potential for relation, vs. hot princess from the bikini planet etc.) is the general way to go. I certainly appreciate an effort to do something new and different in the big anime film.
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Mar 13, 2023 15:42
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Build Divers Rerise did a fairly adequate job with aliens.
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Mar 13, 2023 15:47
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The Notorious ZSB posted:Gundam needs to leave aliens to Macross/other properties, it simply does not jive well with the core elements of the franchise. 00 tried, and no thanks. Re:Rise was good though.
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Mar 13, 2023 15:52
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imagine struggling to communicate with something you don't understand in a gundam show
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Mar 13, 2023 16:43
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Maybe they could try pop music.
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Mar 13, 2023 16:50
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ninjewtsu posted:imagine struggling to communicate with something you don't understand in a gundam show Yeah that theme is good and central, but applying it to humanity communicating with aliens is umm its such a far endgame for a Gundam story that fitting it anywhere into a run they've shown doesn't make sense to me. If they set a timeline where newtype communicaiton is already the norm, then having that new layer makes sense. If human's haven't solved that issue for the setting, then I think adding aliens to the mix is actually a disservice to the larger narrative and is a distraction to most of Gundam's principles. The 00 movie isn't bad for trying, but for imo rushing that story element and executing it poorly trying to fit that in as a gotcha REALLY THE THING WAS ABOUT ALIENS Y'ALL. ReRise I haven't seen, but is the alien component really about them being functionally different from the protags or is it an excuse to have different character designs? The aliens still behaved and acted more or less like humans as we knew/know them to my understanding (they think its just a new MMO zone and not much dispels that until the story is ready to from what ive read). The core topic was not really about them being aliens you can't understand, but actually a debate about the value of life you might not immediately recognize (very gundam themed, but not really about the unknowable nature of your opponent that most alien centric sci fi stories are built around). I just feel like Gundam stories are best grounded in human conflicts and adding aliens doesn't really do much for the franchise or what its generally trying to address for me. It's not an avenue that excites me for Gundam stories. The Notorious ZSB fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Mar 13, 2023 |
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Mar 13, 2023 17:03
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I think categorically sectioning off entire unexplored concepts like that isn't an interesting way of looking at media
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Mar 13, 2023 17:25
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I shilled it upthread but anyone who thinks that you can't take a deep look at the human condition in a story involving aliens and robots really needs to watch some Star Trek.
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Mar 13, 2023 17:30
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Kanos posted:I shilled it upthread but anyone who thinks that you can't take a deep look at the human condition in a story involving aliens and robots really needs to watch some Star Trek. Unfortunately star trek seems to have forgotten that in recent years.
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Mar 13, 2023 17:31
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ninjewtsu posted:I think categorically sectioning off entire unexplored concepts like that isn't an interesting way of looking at media I think Gundam would have to do a lot of leg work to successfully tell that story, not that the story should not be told. Which is why I said other franchises are better suited to trying them. The chances that fitting Gundam and Aliens together produces a quality product feels low to me. If that interests you power to ya. Star Trek at its best is peak that kind of story work, big agree on that.
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Mar 13, 2023 17:50
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