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CainFortea posted:Everyone's heard of Tennessee Whiskey but no one goes there if they have any other options. Buddy, I buy Two Rivers tabac in Caemlyn so I don't have to go to Two Rivers.
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Mar 29, 2023 19:28
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Jaxyon posted:Buddy, I buy Two Rivers tabac in Caemlyn so I don't have to go to Two Rivers. Haven't Aiel heard of Two Rivers tabac? I guarantee few, possibly none of them, know where it is and there's probably even some that don't even realize that "Two Rivers" is a place at all.
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Mar 29, 2023 19:29
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pik_d posted:You're assuming that the Aes Sedai believe that the Dragon dying before the last battle means that everything is just great and the Dark One is defeated by default. You're also assuming that the Aes Sedai wouldn't want to have control the the Dragon if it turns out the Dragon was a woman. I disagree on both counts. New springs in TV world means the black just run around and slaughter an entire cohort.
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Mar 29, 2023 19:34
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tsob posted:Haven't Aiel heard of Two Rivers tabac? I guarantee few, possibly none of them, know where it is and there's probably even some that don't even realize that "Two Rivers" is a place at all. Honey, he's teasing you. Nobody has TWO rivers.
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Mar 29, 2023 19:38
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I really liked the conversation when Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve meet the maidens and Egwene is like...you haven't seen a river before? But you mentioned stone river...
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Mar 29, 2023 19:46
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Data Graham posted:Honey, he's teasing you. Nobody has TWO rivers. Oh my god 
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Mar 29, 2023 19:48
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silvergoose posted:I really liked the conversation when Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve meet the maidens and Egwene is like...you haven't seen a river before? But you mentioned stone river... Aviendha's fear of wading a river because it's so unfamiliar to her is a nice bit of characterisation, though all the female cast constantly being blind to their own courage while complimenting the courageous acts of the rest is generally a fun running gag to accompany Mat, Rand and Perrin's feelings about talking to women.
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Mar 29, 2023 19:55
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th3t00t posted:Started my first re-watch of the show and oof......it's much worse this time around. Just finished episode 3. It just doesn't feel like WoT to me. It's like watching a show based loosely on the story of WoT taking place in a different setting. Agree with your post though, it was not well made. Someone mentioned upthread about season 2 changes, I think they are going to have to continue changing exponentially more things in order to make their previous changes make any sense lol. I do not expect the geniuses behind season 1 to do that well, and in general these fantasy adaptations have only worked well when they cleave relatively closely to the source material rather than relying on whole cloth invention by their own writers. But who knows.
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Mar 29, 2023 19:58
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CainFortea posted:It's like 17 minutes of screen time. Plus it had the cool little forsaken idols  Talk about a missed merch opportunity 
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Mar 29, 2023 20:19
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Hexel posted:Plus it had the cool little forsaken idols One of my biggest criticisms, why the hell isn't there good merch for it
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Mar 29, 2023 20:23
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There was genuinely better merchandise available before the show came out and they revoked all the licensing.
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Mar 29, 2023 20:31
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I think our greatest hope for them to turn the poo poo show around is that Rafe Jankass is now ALSO the showrunner for God of War. Hopefully Amazon frees him and the entire writing team to go work on that, and we get some actual talent in the writers' room.
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Mar 29, 2023 20:35
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I enjoyed the show quite a bit. I also know some people who hadn't read the books who enjoyed the show as well. There's areas for improvement, but it's certainly not a poo poo show. I also don't know where this idea that the Two Rivers is completely isolated in the books comes from. A sleepy backwater isn't the same thing as a closed society with no outside contact.
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Mar 29, 2023 20:54
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Hughmoris posted:Rafe Jankass 
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Mar 29, 2023 21:05
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Yeah in the book it's on a road from one town to another town, it's not like it doesn't have any casual traffic or anything. What it does have is the idea that it's a forgotten backwater that Andor doesn't even remember to tax anymore, and a unique separate ethnic history from the area around it that makes it Special.
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Mar 29, 2023 21:07
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Health Services posted:I enjoyed the show quite a bit. I also know some people who hadn't read the books who enjoyed the show as well. It wasn't really isolated, more that it was at the rear end end of nowhere and there was nothing beyond it. The closest thing was some slightly larger towns and maybe a few mines up in the mountains. It's a theme throughout the books that someone comments on at some point. There's way, way less people than there used to be and at this point the Two Rivers is the edge of a shrinking chunk of the world that's a couple really bad winters or a bad Trolloc raid from being completely depopulated. At least until Perrin takes over and some incredibly desperate refugees show up. Data Graham posted:Yeah in the book it's on a road from one town to another town, it's not like it doesn't have any casual traffic or anything. Did they? The only people who they talk about showing up are merchants there to buy tabac and wool, and their guards. Besides one dude running from a murder charge or something like that. The only thing past them is some big rear end mountains only people running from an army would use, and there are better ways to get to the other side of the mountains. seaborgium fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Mar 29, 2023 |
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Mar 29, 2023 21:13
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Good thing the show did pretty good as it was so we can expect the same team to keep working on it instead of some pathetic terrible attempt at making it book accurate. Cause I, for one, don't think hours of characters emoting at eachother while the actors give voice over internal dialogue is a good tv show.
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Mar 29, 2023 21:22
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Show is good, can't wait to see the Aiel and other book friends in seasons 2 and 3 (and hopefully others too)
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Mar 29, 2023 21:23
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seaborgium posted:Did they? The only people who they talk about showing up are merchants there to buy tabac and wool, and their guards. Besides one dude running from a murder charge or something like that. The only thing past them is some big rear end mountains only people running from an army would use, and there are better ways to get to the other side of the mountains. I'm talking about the north-south road. North it goes to Watch Hill/Taren Ferry/Baerlon, south to Deven Ride. The mountains/mines are to the west.
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Mar 29, 2023 21:25
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Data Graham posted:I'm talking about the north-south road. North it goes to Watch Hill/Taren Ferry/Baerlon, south to Deven Ride. The mountains/mines are to the west. There's some conflation of the Two Rivers as a whole and Emond's Field specifically going on. The original complaint (so far as I can tell at least) is about the entire area, not just the one town all the characters are from.
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Mar 29, 2023 21:33
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The other, larger point, is that the books are very flawed. EOTW, in particular, ends in complete incoherence. Throughout, there's a real feeling of Jordan struggling to figure out what he wants to do with these long tangential passages, particularly around the bowl of the winds and faile's kidnapping. But the germ of the books is quite strong. The TV show is an opportunity to rethink Jordan's mistakes and improve the story. To not so, I believe, would be a real mistake.
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Mar 29, 2023 21:55
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Health Services posted:The other, larger point, is that the books are very flawed. EOTW, in particular, ends in complete incoherence. Throughout, there's a real feeling of Jordan struggling to figure out what he wants to do with these long tangential passages, particularly around the bowl of the winds and faile's kidnapping. Blasphemy. I have been reliably informed by chud twitter that the books are literary masterpieces 
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Mar 30, 2023 00:01
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pik_d posted:The Two Rivers being isolated is weird to me because in the books Thom shows up there to perform, literally everyone in the world knows about Two Rivers tabac, Gawyn is the biggest Two Rivers stan until one second of plot happens and suddenly hates Rand, and that's just off the top of my head. The Two Rivers being isolated is a myth. The Two Rivers aren't isolated because nobody goes there. They're isolated because nobody leaves.
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Mar 30, 2023 09:56
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:The recognition of an AS and that her predecessor wanted to be one cuts a lot of book one character development of the women accepting the tower. Moraine was only recognized as Aes Sedai in the show because she proclaimed herself openly to the women (a very good way of showing the status of AS in this world). In the book she didn't reveal her identity until she defended the town. Both book and show made it pretty clear that everybody has Notions about those witchy women, and Nyneave's book behavior is very clearly based on what she thinks she knows about the Tower, not just her personal hatred of Moraine. The change here is far smaller than you make it seem.
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Mar 30, 2023 10:10
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Jedit posted:The Two Rivers aren't isolated because nobody goes there. They're isolated because nobody leaves. It's both, really. Like, some people do leave occasionally; just not very many, and not very often. Tam left for instance, and spent a decade or two in Illian before returning with his wife because he was sick of war and wanted some place quiet to raise a family. I'm pretty sure there's gossip about people who've left in one or two places too. Conversely, there are people who come to the Two Rivers, but it's almost all merchants and tradesmen who come on annual basis and mostly for the tabac. The majority of whom view it as a backwoods shithole, and just want to be out of there again as soon as they can. There's mention of a few desperate people coming to hide too, but that's specifically because the Two Rivers is the rear end end of nowhere so it makes a good spot to hide out in. I vaguely recall it even mentioning some of those folk leaving after a while because it's so far off the map too. It's not even alone either, because it's a recurring point throughout the books that the various nations are becoming increasingly unable to maintain their borders, that large stretches of land within the Westlands aren't even claimed by any nation because no-one is strong enough to maintain control of them anymore and there's just not enough in the area to make claiming them worthwhile etc. The group going after the Horn of Valere in The Great Hunt venture through areas that aren't part of any nation, with tiny towns that just govern themselves but are almost abandoned because there are so few people left in them and the ruins of cities around them etc. The swathes of the Westlands anyone can lay claim to is shrinking and things are becoming more desperate and desolate as the influence of the Shadow grows. All of which will presumably reverse now that the Last Battle is done, with the various powers reinvigorated, since Tuon/Fortuona has decided that the Seanchan must change to facilitate control of whatever parts of the Westland they claim, Elayne now in control of the largest remaining kingdom in a joint Caemlyn and Cairhien (which will seemingly change to a new nation with a "Court of the Sun") and even the borderland nations now freed of their singular purpose and so able to look to do more than that for the first time ever. The fact Faile and Perrin are quite possibly rulers of a joint Saldaea and Two Rivers now will probably reinvigorate things for those areas even more too, even if Perrin has sworn not to lay any claim of kingship to Elayne's lands, because if you look at a map of the Westlands...  ...there's a huge swath of unclaimed land right between Saldaea and the Two Rivers just waiting for someone to sweep in and take control of it, and while Perrin may not have any interest in ruling, his wife certainly does. And his children may do so too. Perrin swore not to contest rule of the Two Rivers, but he didn't say anything about regions that abut it and the borders of Caemlyn generally. The isolation then pays off because it's prevented a lot of the cultural and genetic shifts that have affected the rest of the Westlands from affecting tiny, isolated pockets like the Two Rivers and so the ability to channel remains strong there with Alanna, Verin and Taim all finding dozens of candidates throughout the region, and the cultural conservatism of the Two Rivers becoming an almost unquenchable thirst for the new that surpasses most cosmopolitan areas in the books once Perrin's "rule" has broken them out of their shell and given them the permission they feel they need to stretch their bounds, alongside the sudden influx of refugees thanks to the various conflicts in all the nations surrounding the Two Rivers. Also, looking at that map with the unclaimed areas clearly demarcated it's pretty staggering. There's a huge area around Tar Valon on all sides that no-one controls; not even Tar Valon itself. No wonder the Whitecloaks could camp outside the city uncontested for a while; there's no-one there to contest them. There's probably 50% of the Westlands that no nation even claims, and even some of the "claimed" areas inside a nation's borders are only nominally so, as the Two Rivers proves even if it wasn't mentioned a few times as a problem throughout the series. The entire West coast in Arad Doman and Tarabon is basically sliding into that lack of control throughout the series thanks to the chaos of various forces too. poo poo, I think Altara, Ghaeldan and Murandy are all mentioned as having weak rulers who can't maintain things too. Which is a significant chunk of the South of the Westlands. The borderland nations are probably the only really strong remaining nations in that regard, because the need to fight back constant invasion by the forces of the Shadow keeps them unified and focused. tsob fucked around with this message at 10:46 on Mar 30, 2023 |
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Mar 30, 2023 10:34
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Gnoman posted:Moraine was only recognized as Aes Sedai in the show because she proclaimed herself openly to the women (a very good way of showing the status of AS in this world). In the book she didn't reveal her identity until she defended the town. Both book and show made it pretty clear that everybody has Notions about those witchy women, and Nyneave's book behavior is very clearly based on what she thinks she knows about the Tower, not just her personal hatred of Moraine. The change here is far smaller than you make it seem. e: ugh watching that clip just reminds me of all the weirdness in the show's production. Look at how clean & polished Lan's boots are lol. Also the whole thing is just so bizarrely over-dramatic, it's like an old-school PC RPG cutscene or something. The lack of subtlety is off the chain
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Mar 30, 2023 11:02
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The serpent ring she presents as identification. If she'd stuck it in a pouch and pretended to be "Mistress Alys", they'd have been none the wiser.
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Mar 30, 2023 11:11
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Ah yeah I'm an idiot, read that wrong
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Mar 30, 2023 11:16
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Lack of subtlety? You can't make things subtle in TV, general viewing audiences hate that, as I understand. Gotta spell things out, that's why the aes sedai wear their ajah colors.
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Mar 30, 2023 13:13
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Aes Sedai mostly wear their colors in the books too.
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Mar 30, 2023 13:21
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silvergoose posted:Lack of subtlety? You can't make things subtle in TV, general viewing audiences hate that, as I understand. Gotta spell things out, that's why the aes sedai wear their ajah colors. When I was watching the show for the first time, having not read the books yet, that was a great decision by them because it was one thing I didn't have to keep track of when absorbing a new world with a ton of new characters. In the books you always had a POV character thinking "Liandrin, a Red, was being a huge POS again..." so you have to adapt that to the show through their outfits.
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Mar 30, 2023 13:27
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silvergoose posted:Lack of subtlety? You can't make things subtle in TV, general viewing audiences hate that, as I understand. Gotta spell things out, that's why the aes sedai wear their ajah colors. Yes, it's just so sad that the show runners didn't use the subtle drama from the books. Because that's what WoT is known for!
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Mar 30, 2023 14:26
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CainFortea posted:Yes. The warder bond breakage thing is like, one of the most plot important things in the entire series. It has very strong implications for most of the main characters at some point along the story, sometimes at the same time. El Grillo posted:In fairness, Judkins said before s1 launched that that was the approach they were taking, like a different turning of the wheel or something like that were the words he used. This show feels like its more on the level of Pete Jackson's The Hobbit, GoT season 8, Legend of the Seeker, Kenobi, the Star Wars prequels/sequels. Health Services posted:The other, larger point, is that the books are very flawed. EOTW, in particular, ends in complete incoherence. Throughout, there's a real feeling of Jordan struggling to figure out what he wants to do with these long tangential passages, particularly around the bowl of the winds and faile's kidnapping. I think it's a mistake to veer so far off course from the books this early with such weak writers. Most of Jordan's mistakes happen in the middle of the series anyways, it's hubris to expect some hack TV writers to do books 1-6 better than Jordan did.
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Mar 30, 2023 14:35
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I didn't really like the show at all, but the AS wearing their colors wasn't a problem for me. Though I can barely remember what it looked like.
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Mar 30, 2023 15:08
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Why would it be a problem for anyone? They constantly do it in the books too. The show didn't invent that at all.
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Mar 30, 2023 15:15
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Yea them giving Perrin a wife to kill off within an episode and a forced love triangle is way more egregious.
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Mar 30, 2023 15:17
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tsob posted:Why would it be a problem for anyone? They constantly do it in the books too. The show didn't invent that at all. It's more of a solid rule in the show. In the books it was just the Ajah shawl that was always the appropriate color (but not always worn) until the tower split when the Aes Sedai got much more insular. It's a good change though, people claiming otherwise will probably never like the show if they're complaining about every little difference without realizing why they were made. pik_d fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Mar 30, 2023 |
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Mar 30, 2023 15:17
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pik_d posted:It's more of a solid rule in the show. In the books it was just the Ajah shawl that was always the appropriate color (but not always worn) until the tower split when the Aes Sedai got much more insular. It wasn't always just the shawl until the Tower split, and some Aes Sedai always wore Ajah appropriate colors. I'm pretty sure Alviaran and a few others are always described as wearing their Ajah colors too. A majority of fan-art and some of the covers have Aes Sedai in their Ajah colors too because it's such a simple visual key for who or what they are.
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Mar 30, 2023 15:43
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El Grillo posted:Uh... nope? That's the opposite of what happens in the show - she's explicitly recognised by the innkeeper at the sight of the serpent ring: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIMkfP4JsxU
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Mar 30, 2023 16:08
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If your big hold up is "this guy with a lifetime of military training has clean boots" then there is literally nothing they could do to make you happy. This is the same show where Nynaeve's belt is designed to look like a flowing river, they pay an insane amount of attention to details that inform the character.
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Mar 30, 2023 16:15
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