|
Kinda sucks that the DOT C5 is a little heavier, but it's otherwise identical to the EU version (it's DOT + ECE-R 22.06, not instead of); I briefly thought into importing an EU model but I'd have to ship it to Germany for any warranty repair other than something simple like replacing a small part. Also I learned Schuberth will comp 2/3 of the replacement cost of your helmet if you are in a documented accident with it, so that take some sting out of the price. Now I just need to sell one of my espresso machines to pay for it...
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2023 18:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 19:30 |
|
|
Toe Rag posted:The X-15 is already out in Japan and EU. The NA market will surely get something slightly different, because of our helmet standards. AFAIK something can be both DOT and ECE 22.06 compliant, but the rub is Snell, which still carries weight in the NA market, at least with the marketing departments at the big manufacturers. I think this has been circumvented by having TWO snell ratings now. There is a 2020R and 2020… some other letter. I’m probably mixing up which one is which but basically one is a rubber stamp to be same as ECE22.06 and the other conforms to the original harder shell test that they have. You can only tell by looking on the inside helmet sticker which SNELL it is.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2023 22:44
|
|
My helmet is coming up on 5 years old soon, and I'm considering getting a track-focused helmet as well, especially since I will hopefully soon have a bike that can actually go over 100mph.
|
Yes that is correct!! I haven’t gone helmet shopping yet, so not sure which one they’re going for. M2020D is the “traditional” Snell while M2020R is basically the rubber stamp. The Shoei website shows the RF-1400 is M2020D, while I don’t see anything listed on the Arai website. I’m concerned that the NA market will be boxed out of the modern ECE 22.06 helmets because they somehow don’t conform with DOT. It doesn’t make sense to me that manufacturers would bifurcate their helmet line otherwise. Unless the manufacturer don’t agree with ECE and just conform for market access? Someone please explain 
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2023 22:58
|
|
|
Toe Rag posted:The only FIM helmets on Revzilla are a $1000 HJC and a $2000 AGV. Fabio Quartararo switched from Scorpion to HJC, for what it's worth. Isn’t the Scorpion R1 Air FIM rated in one or two of the sizes?
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2023 03:00
|
|
|
Toe Rag posted:I’m concerned that the NA market will be boxed out of the modern ECE 22.06 helmets because they somehow don’t conform with DOT. Why wouldn't they? I thought anything vaguely helmet-shaped conformed to DOT
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2023 10:38
|
|
|
moxieman posted:Isn’t the Scorpion R1 Air FIM rated in one or two of the sizes? Yeah looks like it, but not categorized as such on Revzilla  Xakura posted:Why wouldn't they? I thought anything vaguely helmet-shaped conformed to DOT This is my expectation as well, and I have a Bell helmet which is DOT and ECE 22.05 (previous standard). Why then, though, are Shoei and Arai releasing NA-spec versions of their new helmets (RF-1400 and Contour-X) which opt for the Snell M2020D (DOT) instead of M2020R (ECE 22.06)? Snell's website shows only the Shoei X-Fifteen and LS2 Street Fighter helmets are M2020R, and everything else is either M2020D or M2015 (same thing afaik). The X-Fifteen is not yet for sale in NA, which makes me think a M2020D version is in development. The LS2 helmet shows up in Snell's data as both M2015 and M2020R, and LS2's website doesn't specify which Snell 2020 version you're actually buying and specifically calls out being DOT compliant. If you look at the EU vs NA websites for Shoei and Arai, the only identifiable difference I found between the helmet is the shell. Shoei NA is AIM+ while EU is AIM; Arai NA is PB-CLC2 while EU is PB e-cLc. I don't know what any of that means, but my understanding is shell stiffness is main divergence between Snell and ECE. I don't say this with any type of authority, because I'm trying to figure it out myself. If you're not riding on track, then you do need or even want an FIM helmet? Maybe not. But I kind of do want to buy a track helmet, and the idea I can't get an FIM helmet (or at least, "the one I want") because of a safety standard nearly 50 years old is annoying.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2023 17:54
|
|
|
I would absolutely buy a ECE22/06 helmet over a Snell M2020D if I could, but the US continues to be backwards. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76yu124i3Bo
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2023 20:04
|
|
|
Good helmets keep the freedom rays from reaching you
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2023 20:27
|
|
|
Toe Rag posted:Yes that is correct!! I haven’t gone helmet shopping yet, so not sure which one they’re going for. M2020D is the “traditional” Snell while M2020R is basically the rubber stamp. I thought it was the reverse with D being a rubber stamp for the DOT market and R retaining the actual standard but to be honest there's been close to zero communication on this to the point where I view the snell standard as close to meaningless now. I'm strongly suspecting thats why the X-15 isn't in America yet. Seems like FIM/ECE standard doesn't really gel with NA DOT standard and Snell only muddies the waters. I'll just bite the bullet and import a ECE helmet cause I don't trust the DOT standard at all.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2023 21:25
|
|
|
This thread and re-watching that fortnine clip caused me to fall into the rabbit hole of learning about standardised helmet testing. poo poo is complicated, but ECE seems like it's at least well intentioned and though through. I just learned that latest standard tests a bunch of new things like visor fogging, drop down sun shades, modular helmets when opened up and if com systems negatively affect safety when mounted. Guess the main takeaway is I'm glad I live in a country where the law says you have to ride motorcycles with an ECE-compliant helmet so I don't have to think about it further.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2023 04:31
|
|
|
tony quidtana posted:I thought it was the reverse with D being a rubber stamp for the DOT market and R retaining the actual standard but to be honest there's been close to zero communication on this to the point where I view the snell standard as close to meaningless now. I'm strongly suspecting thats why the X-15 isn't in America yet. Seems like FIM/ECE standard doesn't really gel with NA DOT standard and Snell only muddies the waters. I'll just bite the bullet and import a ECE helmet cause I don't trust the DOT standard at all. Snell is quite clear about what their ratings mean: https://smf.org/standards/m/2020/M2020_Final.pdf 2020D is a continuation of the traditional Snell testing method from previous years. Because of the different test methodologies, it's hard to meet the requirements of both 2020D and ECE. So Snell created 2020R with some different impact requirements that makes it easier to also pass ECE. Whether 2020D, 2020R, or ECE is a better standard really depends on the type of impact you care about. All are reasonable standards, but they diverge on the types of impacts they target for testing. I wouldn't describe any of them as a rubber stamp.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2023 15:39
|
|
|
Its very nice that you look incredibly optimistically at them not sticking to their principles and beliefs in their own standard and suddenly turning out two seperate new designations rather than lose market share but I am just a touch more pessimistic at the reasoning behind that. Proposing the idea that what crash standard is best is really a matter of consumer preference is some absurd business marketing bullshit, one standard will objectively be safer just because we have crash statistics that show what and where the majority of impacts occur and can work to mitigate those risks. I don't trust Snell's voice in that conversation any longer given that they've decided maintaining a presence in all markets is more important than putting together the best standard possible.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2023 18:09
|
|
|
No, one standard is not objectively safer than the other, because all crashes are not identical. Snell has always been focused on racing, where you can expect a crash event to have higher energies and more total impacts. ECE standards focus on everyday motorcycling, where you can expect crashes to have lower energy and fewer impacts. You can't optimize for both. A helmet with harder foam (Snell) will absorb more energy in high energy impacts, where a softer foam (ECE) might bottom out and stop working entirely. But the harder foam also increases overall energy transfer to the head, and under lighter impacts it may hardly compress at all, so a softer foam provides better protection in those situations. Most of these subtle differences, though, come out in the wash. The SHARP ratings are a good start towards objectively rating helmets for protectiveness, but the difference between a four star and a five star is miniscule compared to the difference between, say, crashing at 40 miles an hour and 50 miles an hour. The only thing that is verifiably true again and again is that full-face helmets are slightly safer than modular helmets, both of those are significantly safer than three-quarter helmets, and everything is greatly safer than half-helmets, which aren't much safer than wearing no helmet. Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Apr 15, 2023 |
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2023 18:24
|
|
|
syzygy86 posted:Snell is quite clear about what their ratings mean: https://smf.org/standards/m/2020/M2020_Final.pdf Snell president literally admitted the market share thing: https://youtu.be/76yu124i3Bo?t=363 FIM (the one who has motogp assets wearing them) is the one pushing ECE towards a softer shell and actual rotational impact measurement that 2020D doesn't even measure. Snell can't admit that maybe they got it pretty wrong, but the transaction costs are too high now to go back on your word and there's too much money invovled.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2023 18:33
|
|
|
Sagebrush posted:ECE standards focus on everyday motorcycling, where you can expect crashes to have lower energy and fewer impacts. Russian Bear posted:FIM (the one who has motogp assets wearing them) is the one pushing ECE towards a softer shell and actual rotational impact measurement 
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2023 18:37
|
|
|
Sagebrush posted:No, one standard is not objectively safer than the other, because all crashes are not identical. uhhh thats not how actuarial sciences work lol
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2023 19:59
|
|
|
Well, actuarially
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2023 20:00
|
|
|
Just don't crash, god 
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2023 20:02
|
|
|
You’re quoting two different people. I don’t necessarily agree with what sage is saying there.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2023 04:13
|
|
|
tony quidtana posted:uhhh thats not how actuarial sciences work lol If you were seriously treating this like an actuary, you'd have it broken down into which helmet is safest for each style of riding, each sort of riding environment, male versus female, age ranges, and so on.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2023 18:19
|
|
|
there are times where i wish we could just have a spinoff helmet thread so that you all could have an intentional space to yell at each other about certifications and leave the rest of us in peace
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2023 19:53
|
|
|
Helmet helldump lol
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2023 21:41
|
|
|
Does anyone else use the gas station squeegee to clean their visor cause I do
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2023 02:43
|
|
|
I heard that's bad because the squegee fluid is never cleaned and it usually contains ammonia, which can fog plastic visors. A lot of people don't even recommend using them on car windshields. I usually just use paper towels and a dab of water on the road. At home, I clean the visor with a lint-free cloth and eyeglass cleaning solution.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2023 03:30
|
|
|
The best solution for cleaning your visor and also motorcycle windscreen is the one you already have in the kitchen: dishwashing soap. It's perfectly safe for polycarbonate and is a powerful degreaser. Bug guts never stood a chance
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2023 03:33
|
|
|
A microfiber cloth in my tank bag is a must-have for long trips. That plus a little water from my camelbak and visor cleaning is easy.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2023 04:09
|
|
|
This helmet is already on its last legs but good to know. Loooots of bugs on the 395 today
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2023 04:48
|
|
|
A MIRACLE posted:Does anyone else use the gas station squeegee to clean their visor cause I do I never do because the one time I did many years ago, the water smelled like diarrhea and it got in my helmet vents 
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2023 12:39
|
|
|
Turns out the X-fifteen was just a pre-order display and no sale or deals so I didn't bother spending much time at the helmet tents . The RevZilla tent guy tried to tell me that Snell was better than FIM Homologation for track days. I tried on a AGV Pista helmet at the Dainese tent. They were 40% off, or about $1k, but none of the sizes fit my head and the only graphics they had were VR46 themed, and while I like Rossi I don't like looking like some try hard fanboy at trackday and they didn't match my red-white-black leathers. It turns out I should've been trying on the HJC RPHA 1N helmet because there were deals to be had there. My friend tells me one tent was selling the Red bull Circuit of the Americas livery helmet for $650, marked down from $950. That helmet looks pretty cool. Not sure how sizing for HJC compares to Shoei but I regret not checking it out now. HJC has not been on my radar since my last three helmets have been Shoei. Oh well. Had a good time watching the Moto2 and MotoGP races from turn 1 and the weather was really nice on Sunday.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2023 00:34
|
|
|
MetaJew posted:The RevZilla tent guy tried to tell me that Snell was better than FIM Homologation for track days. Lmfao wow, legit would consider sending some random feedback to corp or some poo poo because what the christ the loving org that does world track racing is worse than loving snell???? This wasn’t like a caveat that like some tracks only accept snell and not FIM was it?
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2023 02:40
|
|
|
TheBacon posted:Lmfao wow, legit would consider sending some random feedback to corp or some poo poo because what the christ the loving org that does world track racing is worse than loving snell???? Perhaps you're right and he meant that some tracks only accept SNELL helmets, but any motorcycle trackday org that knows anything should be able to recognize that an ECE or FIM moto specific helmet is a safe piece of gear for a trackday. He did try to tell me, and I'm paraphrasing here, that most brands have moved away from doing FIM homologation. I don't know if that's true or it's that helmet makers don't want to deal with trying to do SNELL and FIM in the US market... Either way, the message I got was that he was pushing SNELL and wasn't very useful when I asked what helmets they had in the tent had the FIM sticker.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2023 03:56
|
|
|
MetaJew posted:Perhaps you're right and he meant that some tracks only accept SNELL helmets, but any motorcycle trackday org that knows anything should be able to recognize that an ECE or FIM moto specific helmet is a safe piece of gear for a trackday. Yeah that loving sucks. I would expect better from Revzilla, not that they are paragons or anything but like come on.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2023 04:24
|
|
|
MetaJew posted:He did try to tell me, and I'm paraphrasing here, that most brands have moved away from doing FIM homologation. I don't know if that's true or it's that helmet makers don't want to deal with trying to do SNELL and FIM in the US market... I think it is probably true insofar as manufacturers are only going to go for FIM certification for maybe one helmet, and probably not in every size. Right now they can just take the existing M2015 helmets, send them in, and get an M2020D cert from Snell. To get an FIM cert, they need to completely redesign the helmet. That said I imagine specifically for track riding an FIM helmet is better suited than one that isn't. I don't really care for the duplicity of Snell's new ratings, either way.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2023 05:18
|
|
|
My helmet is starting to smell bad and it's time to wash the inside, which I've never done before. Random handsome youtube man says to hand wash in baby shampoo and air dry. The manual is (at a glance at least) vague and only states to only remove the liner for the purpose of washing it (but also how to remove it, which is helpful). I haven't taken it apart yet to see if there is any washing instructions on the liner itself, but how is the actual washing usually done? It seems like a chore and I need to learn some stuff so I want it to be as clean as possible if I'm going through the effort, but I also don't want to ruin the thing of course. Is washing machine on delicate cycle and the mild detergent a terrible idea? (It's a Nolan N87 plus if that matters)
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2023 16:19
|
|
|
I just remove the liner and all of the cheek pads and such and put them in a plastic tote on my table with warm water and yeah baby shampoo. Agitate them around a bit and swish and squeeze etc, then remove and rinse under faucet and allow to dry. Works nice for me to keep the helmet from getting too grouty
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2023 16:25
|
|
|
From the helmet's manual (https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1723380/Nolan-N87-Plus.html?page=19#manual) It continues for a bit after the quote. I wash mine with normal, dilute, perfume free laundry detergent. Soak it for a few minutes, squeeze out, rub together, squeeze out, then rinse until all traces of soap are gone. Don't put it into a washing machine. quote:REMOVABLE INNER COMFORT PADDING
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2023 16:26
|
|
|
LimaBiker posted:Don't put it into a washing machine.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2023 16:35
|
|
|
You’ve got the right attitude because you’re going to find the helmet is a lot less complicated than you think once you get the liner out. As long as you:
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2023 17:02
|
|
|
I used some lavender Dr. Bronner’s last time I washed my helmet’s liner and it was very nice (until I stunk it up again).
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2023 19:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 19:30 |
|
|
Yeah just put it in the sink with some laundry soap and squish it around. You'll be astonished how much brown gunk comes out. Do it a couple of times, rinse, squeeze out in a towel, let it air dry. Same as washing anything else by hand.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2023 15:47
|
|