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My take on Original Sin is that it isn't some inherent defect, but simply a state of being. I liken it to how Hobbes describes the natural state of man. Absent any kind of social, religious, or cultural context we are focused only on the survival and wellbeing of the individual. This is a profoundly selfish worldview and pretty much every society you care to name lays out some basic rules to make people get along with each other, not be dicks all the time, and work towards a common goal even if it's as simple "produce enough food that we all live through the winter." It's recognizing the animal that we are, and the ways that we have to work against that for the collective good.
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Apr 18, 2023 17:36
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Original Sin refers to the disobedience of Adam and Eve and the fallout from that, so I'd compare it less to a genetic defect and more like a long-term injury that even if healed still causes some lingering issues.
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Apr 18, 2023 17:36
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Keromaru5 posted:But then, my point is that love for self or love of country of love of one's people are still forms of love, just misdirected. The self isn't bad; countries (arguably) aren't bad; nations aren't bad; it's disordered love for them that turns into evil. The problem with love of self and love of family/tribe/nation isn't even that it's too strong or that it's misdirected, it's that it's just not big enough for those outside these circles. You're supposed to love yourself, and those closer to you, it's just that you're supposed to love all the others too. And while your time, energy, and resources are limited and you can't do everything for everybody, in helping yourself and those closest to you, that love for others must still be present, so you ought not to harm them to help your group.
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Apr 18, 2023 18:42
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Nessus posted:The concept of original sin in theology as I understand it is a lot closer to a genetic defect than to a like, caste status or inherited debt. I don’t agree with it because even the most low down human birth is super fortunate compared to most animals or worse. It’s much more basic than that. It’s more like you are not me.
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Apr 18, 2023 19:09
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Bar Ran Dun posted:It’s much more basic than that. This also presupposes both of us exist. A highly conjecturable state of affairs!
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Apr 18, 2023 19:18
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Nessus posted:This also presupposes both of us exist. A highly conjecturable state of affairs! Possibly, but I don’t think the ontological inverted structurally identical situation is really different. It doesn’t really matter if we have the One in the center or nothing in the center Nessus posted:So what, it's having distinctions between individuals? So how did Adam and Eve have conversations in the Garden of Eden? It’s existing. To exist one has to be separate from other people. There can’t be “I” without a separation between I and you or between “I” and the One or nothing. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Apr 18, 2023 |
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Apr 18, 2023 21:02
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When you put it that way it makes a lot more sense. You can gradually and diligently realize the underlying reality of those differences and the distinctions between those entities or between entity and nothingness. there is none
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Apr 18, 2023 21:16
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Nessus posted:When you put it that way it makes a lot more sense. You can gradually and diligently realize the underlying reality of those differences and the distinctions between those entities or between entity and nothingness. there is none Well you can’t with a “therefore.” (Natural Theology) But you can with a “nevertheless”.(the revelation of the good news) Which is Barth. But then you can still therefore your to that question, and then start thereforing again after the nevertheless. Which is Tillich.
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Apr 18, 2023 21:25
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Josef bugman posted:I mean the wrong action in the wrong context to fulfill selfish ends. It presupposes that generation is "Good". Personally I don't think that we can argue that considering that constant unchecked generation is the ideology of the cancer cell. I don't think you can even claim that evil has to corrupt something good. Sometimes it can just take something already bad and run with it. who are you referring to here? the title "scourge of God" generally refers to Attila the Hun, but it's not something he claimed for himself, it's what the Romans called him, obviously because they thought he was a threat. do you seriously think Attilla himself believed he was doing evil for evil's sake? or that he thought he was doing something "bad" at all? he was leading his people to a new homeland, i very seriously doubt that he considered himself evil or that he thought he was doing "bad things" at all.
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Apr 19, 2023 03:48
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Dangit, I got Attila the Hun mixed up with Genghis Khan earlier. Argh.
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Apr 19, 2023 04:00
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You are perhaps thinking of this quote attributed to Genghis Khan: "O people, know that you have committed great sins, and that the great ones among you have committed these sins. If you ask me what proof I have for these words, I say it is because I am the punishment of God. If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you."
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Apr 19, 2023 04:35
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sube posted:this is a really good paper on origen's stance on satan's salvation, btw (it's a bit more complicated than i presented it):https://www.academia.edu/44789518/The_True_Fate_of_The_So_Called_Devil_in_Origen. Gregory of Nyssa held a similar stance. edit: Whoops. I'm sorry for posting that. I made a mistake. Prurient Squid fucked around with this message at 12:24 on Apr 19, 2023 |
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Apr 19, 2023 07:38
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Consider what you're going to post more thoroughly
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Apr 19, 2023 08:06
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Apr 19, 2023 13:05
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Bongo Bill posted:You are perhaps thinking of this quote attributed to Genghis Khan: "O people, know that you have committed great sins, and that the great ones among you have committed these sins. If you ask me what proof I have for these words, I say it is because I am the punishment of God. If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you." A great issue of a great comic, and a great adaptation for the TV show. Speaking of which, I finally watched the first episode of American Gods a few weeks ago, and I just did not like it. The dialogue was oddly stilted, and the violence was so Mortal Kombat I couldn't take it seriously. The guy playing Shadow was okay, and I liked Ian McShane playing Mr. Wednesday as a grodier Columbo, but not enough to keep going.
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Apr 19, 2023 15:42
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Keromaru5 posted:Yeah, that would make sense. I guess it just takes a particular type of person to lead a group of nomadic tribes against a major empire. Yeah I didn't get into it. Sandman's good though.
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Apr 19, 2023 15:51
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hi religion thread it's been a while i went to a lutheran church last sunday because i can't stand the orthodox church's stance on gay and/or trans ppl anymore here is a trip report: First great thing: 11am service. Thanks be to God I noticed that the service was very Catholic. I jokingly called Lutherans "catholics with the serial numbers filed off," but I didn't expect it to be this much. Even the Eucharistic formula was the same. Guess ol' Marty only knew one way Interesting thing to note: no choir. It was entirely back and forth with the pastor. That's nice. There were two sermons, one for kids and one for adults. I went to the bathroom during the kid's sermon, so I don't know what happened there. The adult's sermon was fine. My old parish priest was an ex-TV reporter, so he had public speaking down pat, this guy was just average. Oh well. Communion was good. It's real bread and wine, which was great for me. Eucharist was in kind, but that's fine. Doesn't need to be all-in-one to be valid, imo. After the service, they had a petting zoo and a food truck. All the kids were really excited to pet the horses. Everyone was really nice and weren't standoffish like I've seen at other churches. Pastor told me to come back, and I think I will next Sunday. Not sure why, but I felt a lot of emotion during the service. Started crying, no shame in that ANYWAY, that's my trip report. I'm sorry for all the terrible things I've said about protestants
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Apr 19, 2023 15:54
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Cyrano4747 posted:My take on Original Sin is that it isn't some inherent defect, but simply a state of being. I liken it to how Hobbes describes the natural state of man. Absent any kind of social, religious, or cultural context we are focused only on the survival and wellbeing of the individual. This is a profoundly selfish worldview and pretty much every society you care to name lays out some basic rules to make people get along with each other, not be dicks all the time, and work towards a common goal even if it's as simple "produce enough food that we all live through the winter." Not trying to devils ad, but most things seem to indicate animals cooperate without reward - it's just that they also rape, kill and maim each other for seemingly random reasons sometimes. I personally think the (cultural) arguments that want humans to be individualist predators in capitalism are way more dangerous than our in-born drives. Smoking Crow posted:hi religion thread it's been a while whomst among us did not take a dump on protestants because we got the vapours over something or other. Glad stuff is working out for you!
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Apr 20, 2023 19:40
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My Lutheran friend would jokingly call it "Diet Catholic" herself.
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Apr 20, 2023 21:37
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Hey, that's the Episcopalians' line! (On the other hand, if I remember correctly, TEC is in full communion with the Evangelical Lutheran Church, so it works out.)
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Apr 20, 2023 23:27
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I've been lurking for a while and catching up on the thread, and I wanted to thank you all for having such interesting and thoughtful conversations. I haven't seen it covered in the past 20-30 pages or so, but does anyone have any recommendations for podcasts that cover general religious/spiritual discussions from an open, "ecumenical" perspective like the one in this thread? On Being is one I've seen that seems to position itself that way, and I may try listening to it, but I'm curious if you all have other recommendations as well.
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Apr 21, 2023 16:51
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Athaboros posted:I've been lurking for a while and catching up on the thread, and I wanted to thank you all for having such interesting and thoughtful conversations. What do you mean by an open perspective? As in, from different religious groups?
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Apr 21, 2023 17:00
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Athaboros posted:I've been lurking for a while and catching up on the thread, and I wanted to thank you all for having such interesting and thoughtful conversations. There was one I used to listen to that went through all of the Bible book by book that was really fun if you click with the people presenting it. IIRC they were a couple, one ex-Christian and one from a non-religious background. I most remember it for introducing me to the book of Jubilees and how the lady presenter got tearful when describing the death of Abraham in it, which is deeply beautiful and human. I think it was Sunday School Dropouts.
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Apr 21, 2023 17:05
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On Being is quite good, I used to listen to that a lot on the radio.
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Apr 21, 2023 17:06
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sube posted:What do you mean by an open perspective? As in, from different religious groups? Pretty much, although I wouldn't be opposed to ones from only one perspective, either. Just browsing the podcast directories for "Religion" podcasts is difficult, though, since it's a ton of recorded sermons, etc., vs. a more discussion-oriented format that I'd be interested in listening to. HopperUK posted:There was one I used to listen to that went through all of the Bible book by book that was really fun if you click with the people presenting it. IIRC they were a couple, one ex-Christian and one from a non-religious background. I most remember it for introducing me to the book of Jubilees and how the lady presenter got tearful when describing the death of Abraham in it, which is deeply beautiful and human. Thanks, I'll check this out too! Another one I saw that seemed to take a similar approach was Apocrypals, which seems like it could be interesting.
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Apr 21, 2023 17:08
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The passage I mentioned, from Jubilees:quote:And he placed two fingers of Jacob on his eyes, and he blessed the God of gods, and he covered his face and stretched out his feet and slept the sleep of eternity, and was gathered to his fathers. And notwithstanding all this Jacob was lying in his bosom, and knew not that Abraham, his father's father, was dead. And Jacob awoke from his sleep, and behold Abraham was cold as ice, and he said: "Father, father!"; but there was none that spake, and he knew that he was dead. And he arose from his bosom and ran and told Rebecca, his mother; and Rebecca went to Isaac in the night and told him; and they went together, and Jacob with them, and a lamp was in his hand, and when they had gone in they found Abraham lying dead. And Isaac fell on the face of his father, and wept and kissed him. And the voices were heard in the house of Abraham, and Ishmael his son arose, and went to Abraham his father, and wept over Abraham his father, he and all the house of Abraham, and they wept with a great weeping. And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the double cave, near Sarah his wife, and they wept for him forty days, all the men of his house, and Isaac and Ishmael, and all their sons, and all the sons of Keturah in their places, and the days of weeping for Abraham were ended. And he lived three jubilees and four weeks of years, one hundred and seventy-five years, and completed the days of his life, being old and full of days. The detail of the young boy running to get his mother when distressed gets me kinda emotional, I won't lie. (back then it was normal for people to share beds in a non-sexual way for warmth and economy it is not weird that they were sleeping in the same bed)
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Apr 21, 2023 17:09
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Athaboros posted:Pretty much, although I wouldn't be opposed to ones from only one perspective, either. Just browsing the podcast directories for "Religion" podcasts is difficult, though, since it's a ton of recorded sermons, etc., vs. a more discussion-oriented format that I'd be interested in listening to. This one has some interesting episodes on quite different topics from a Christian viewpoint:https://www.formspodcast.com/. I wouldn't watch the COVID one, though.
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Apr 21, 2023 17:18
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What happened to Smells and Bells?
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Apr 23, 2023 10:25
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I finished Spinoza's Ethics. A pat on the back to myself for finishing such a difficult book.
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Apr 23, 2023 14:11
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How did you like it? FE: Oh great, CSPAM wankers gave me a birthday avatar gift did they? Is the religoon avatar relief fond still around?
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Apr 24, 2023 07:25
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The first section is on attribues, substance and modes. Summed up: It's all God stupid. Next is body and mind and the relation between the two. The last three are ethics proper. I.e. how to live the good life. Although even here Spinoza maintains his tedius "geometrical" presentation. Towards the end he reference the Biblical myth of eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and man for the first time fearing mortality. He reads something into this. I'll have to unpick it some time. But even though he parallels religion the work is not an attempt at any kind of confessional theology. At no point is any scripture cited as a basis of authority. Spinoza was a strict rationalist who believed in the power of reason. In fact he seems to anticipate Rousseau's social contract at one point.
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Apr 24, 2023 08:52
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Tias posted:How did you like it? If you're ever really upset by an avatar and can't pay to change it, post in games and let me know and I'll beg an admin to fix it 
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Apr 25, 2023 19:08
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Tias posted:How did you like it? Miracles happen, apparently
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Apr 26, 2023 00:41
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hi religion thread longtime lurker, rare poster, but, uh can i like, dump a bit in here? i'm... going through an experience of what i can charitably call religious upheaval and i think i might need some thoughts from random shitposters on the internet if this isnt cool feel free to yell or whatever xoxo sinnesloeschen ps on behalf of cspam (well, the trump thread) i am sorry to the goon who got avrolled
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Apr 26, 2023 01:58
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sinnesloeschen posted:hi religion thread Go ahead my dude Also cool name polybius forever
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Apr 26, 2023 03:40
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sinnesloeschen posted:hi religion thread Only real thing to keep in mind is none of us are in church hierarchies. Well, maybe the choir or something. 
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Apr 26, 2023 04:58
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The Shadow Council doesn't count? Aww.
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Apr 26, 2023 06:15
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I remember you from around the way, Sinnesloechen. Please dump all you want to!
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Apr 26, 2023 06:40
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sinnesloeschen posted:hi religion thread WeIcome new friend! Vent away, I wiII Iisten for as Iong as you need me
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Apr 26, 2023 12:51
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I just came up with something... There's suffering but there's no "sufferer" because that would be identification with form. Or maybe it's like "existence preceeds essence" or we're free spirits at the back and all the reactions of jeleasy and hatred are like a spiders web or samsara. Like a trap of causality.
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Apr 26, 2023 13:04
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