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mllaneza posted:They sent a poet. Borrowing your quote to praise what is truly His work
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May 1, 2023 07:18
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:You don’t need a giant mass of Guardsmen; you just need the local kings and presidents to know that if they don’t pay their tithe, the Astartes are coming back. Realistically, it's mostly this. When you're talking about the Imperium, you have to consider that most of its forces are going to be used internally, as a weapon of terror.
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May 1, 2023 07:34
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wiegieman posted:Realistically, it's mostly this. When you're talking about the Imperium, you have to consider that most of its forces are going to be used internally, as a weapon of terror. Curze did nothing wrong
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May 1, 2023 08:10
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Black Griffon posted:The fall of Rome This is great, very well written! You are completely right that any pre-modern society would just be completely thrown by what they would perceive as divine retribution, and submit to whatever the Imperium then demanded. I was thinking more of war against modern industrialised states or the other enemies in 40k, who even if they couldn't match the SM level of technology or competence, would recognise what it was. Some great points by a few people about how SM couldn't be a lone instrument of conquest, but a few in the right place would be very useful. Calax is quite right there's a wider problem of how scale is portrayed in 40k. Very common in planetary sci fi. Every planet basically represents a city, town or rural neighbourhood. If you are looking for Bob on the planet Mortimer, you just take your spaceship over there and ask around. Perhaps you ask the planetary governor, who has the information at his fingertips that a shuttle arrived yesterday, maybe Bob was on that. If you need to attack Mortimer, obviously a quick battle at the capital, Mortimer City, should decide the issue. This is the same syndrome that leads to desert worlds, jungle worlds, worlds with only one culture etc. To be fair some of their authors like Dan Annett and Chris Wraight have gotten much better at incorporating the scale of 40k.
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May 1, 2023 08:25
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That issue of scale feels especially egregious with the core setting conceit that this giant Imperium was built from planets that had already had a human population for a longer period of time than has, in real life, passed of recorded human civilization on Earth. It's nice when this is at least acknowledged, even if that acknowledgement is just a hand-wave. Like how the planet Fulgrim decides to have an adventure with six of his lads on, in his eponymous Primarchs book, had been almost entirely glassed by nuclear war and there was only a token remnant of brittle, stratified culture, and this is the only reason why that particular compliance act has even the most remote shot of working.
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May 1, 2023 09:02
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Biplane posted:What a great game Dawn of War 1 was.
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May 1, 2023 09:50
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Curze did nothing wrong Literally why he was allowed to continue for as long as he did. Yeah, he may have subjugated a planet by live streaming skinning millions of children alive and playing their dying, agonised screams on a loop, but all the other planets nearby would comply without any hesitation once word of "marines with wings on their helmets" approaching got around. The "Space Marine vs lower tech civilisation" is like the old "could an FA-18 fighter win WW2"? The answer is that of course an FA-18 can ruin anything available in the 1940s and would be untouchable, but it needs the backup of an aircraft carrier for refuel, re-arming, intelligence for targets, etc. As the beautiful poet explained earlier - astartes can go a long time without needing anything and the melee combat against a primative culture aspect resolves the ammo problem. Astartes are the bogeyman. Eat your greens and pay your tithes or the giant murder gods will come back and raze everything to the ground. What's that? You think you can take the giant armoured psychotic human shaped tanks with industrial chainsaws and hand held artillery pieces? Ok. Would be a shame if a 300 foot tall armoured, shielded cathedral bristling with city levelling weapons started loving WALKING TOWARDS YOU
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May 1, 2023 10:19
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How much would handing a Hornet to [nation of choice]'s top scientists and engineers help fight the war, that is the question.
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May 1, 2023 13:10
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Black Griffon posted:Ok so if we consider a fully armed and armored squad of terminators dropping into Rome during the Imperial era, you split them up into three fireteams with one lead by the captain or sergeant, and you drop or teleport them onto the Palatine Hill before splitting up. I would go for a drop pod assault because the psychological impact is probably 80% the damage in this scenario. Fireteam primaris, lead by the captain, immediately prioritizes the destruction and wholesale slaughter of any governmental structure and institution around the hill, supported by the two other fireteams as they make their way north and south from the drop-site. The forums and the capitol and the grand displays of power are turned to slag and rubble with melta fire and thunder hammer. At this point, only minutes into the operation, Rome is shaking with unholy fire and the screams of thousands of people, soon to be tens of thousand, soon to be a million.  I would read more
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May 1, 2023 14:00
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FPyat posted:How much would handing a Hornet to [nation of choice]'s top scientists and engineers help fight the war, that is the question. Probably not too much, because they'd lack the production techn to replicate a lot of the stuff. They might get some stuff but not an overwhelming lot because a lot of it would be out of their current capabilities. Like making jet fan blades that can run flawless for several hundred hours is an insanely elaborate process for instance that involves shaping molten titanium in a hot press.
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May 1, 2023 14:25
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Cooked Auto posted:Probably not too much, because they'd lack the production techn to replicate a lot of the stuff. They might get some stuff but not an overwhelming lot because a lot of it would be out of their current capabilities. Not to mention the concept of software and computer controlled avionics (cough machine spirit cough). Although now I'm picturing the 40k universe handing over a dreadnought for us to take apart to investigate. "Ok, so this seems to be the control centre... let's see what's under this plate OH JESUS gently caress WHAT THE gently caress?!"
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May 1, 2023 15:17
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It would be like that blurb where the Tau are inspecting a captured ship and when they get to the gellar field generator they’re baffled, because it’s a collection of decorated urns filled with water and also some body parts. How does it work? Probably doesn’t, don’t worry about it, I’m sure it’s fine!
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May 1, 2023 15:35
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Dog_Meat posted:Not to mention the concept of software and computer controlled avionics (cough machine spirit cough). In the book Blades of Damocles (which I haven't read yet, just heard about going though the W40K TV Tropes page), there is apparently a scene were this happens when a Tau commander scans a downed dreadnought.
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May 1, 2023 16:07
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The_Other posted:In the book Blades of Damocles (which I haven't read yet, just heard about going though the W40K TV Tropes page), there is apparently a scene were this happens when a Tau commander scans a downed dreadnought. Anyone know if this is worth getting? Is it part of a series, I see there are more Damocles books on that page. I like tau 
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May 1, 2023 16:16
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Phil Kelly is pretty mediocre
Improbable Lobster fucked around with this message at 19:34 on May 1, 2023 |
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May 1, 2023 17:16
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Improbable Lobster posted:Phol Kelly is pretty mediocre Being very charitable there.
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May 1, 2023 17:24
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They're not great.
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May 1, 2023 17:46
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Space Marines are terrifying and punch exponentially above their weight because they are insanely good at killing things and not stopping, especially against normal humans. This leads to things like a squad of 4-5 killing several hundred people in one engagement. Which is obscene, any combat force on earth is going to be absolutely devastated and combat ineffective at a fraction of those deaths. A chapter or a whatever isn't going to be able to hold an extremely long front line, but they are absolutely going to murder the gently caress out of anything they can reach, which is their job. The guard is who you call when you need to hold a line or keep territory.
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May 1, 2023 20:36
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Biplane posted:Anyone know if this is worth getting? Is it part of a series, I see there are more Damocles books on that page. I like tau I made it halfway through that one book
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May 1, 2023 21:28
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I actually think the tabletop game mechanics capture the strengths and weaknesses of astartes pretty well. Space Marines will pretty much shrug off an arbitrary amount of small arms fire. Given infinite time you could bring one down with bullets, but you don't have infinite time, because he's sprinting at you at 60 mph and when he reaches you he's going to cut you in half with a sword the size of a helicopter propeller. A lascannon or tank cannon, though, will blow him apart pretty easily, and regular humans can wield lascannons and tank cannons pretty well - not as well as Space Marines, but they don't have to because there are so many more of them. In a pitched battle superior numbers will win the day even if the casualty ratio will be pretty lopsided. When Space Marines are dropping out of the sky, or bursting up out of the sewers, or just advancing under cover from regular Guard forces, and they're able to strike first before you have an entrenched defensive position that is prepared for Space Marine assault, they'll murder you before you even know what's happening. As long as they can keep you off balance, they're fast enough that regular humans won't be able to shift anti-Space Marine materiel to the right place in time. The Marines get in there, accomplish their mission, and get out. That's how you get results like "three Space Marines killed 150 elite palace guards, assassinated the entire high command, and left without taking casualties." If you just have Space Marines holding a trench somewhere, they will do enormous damage because of how resilient they are and how devastating their weaponry is, but they will eventually be overrun - that's what happened to the entire Ultramarines First Company at Macragge. In a big war zone like Armageddon, probably the best defensive use of Space Marines is to sprinkle them through the regular defenders to stiffen their positions. A Space Marine not only inspires nearby humans, he makes it very difficult for enemies to clear a trench or wall by storming it. Little pockets of 3-6 Space Marines scattered among millions of human defenders multiplies the effectiveness of the humans. Still, they're not really for defensive fighting, they're for speartip offenses.
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May 1, 2023 21:49
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That's essentially what thr Helsreach Crusade marines did during the Armageddon war. Squads were deployed across the hive city for defensive actions as well as attacking high profile targets.
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May 1, 2023 22:24
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Marines with suitable rapid reaction reserves would also be very good for relieving positions that are about to fall. A squad of Marines wouldn't be enough to turn the tide in and of themselves, but with a solid force of armored cavalry and mechanized infantry around them they're gonna be able to blunt a lot of attacks. Also, their Chapter fleets are much bigger than their numbers would indicate, scores of warships despite only having a list strength of 1000 Brothers. And different chapters bring their serfs into battle with them, providing additional well equipped forces. The big thing is, though, that the battles are just too small. The Seige of Vraks had 14m Guard casualties across 17 years and is talked about as a seriously Pyrrhic victory for the Imperium. Even if they mean that all of those guardsmen are dead and not just casualties, that's still something like only 4-5m more military deaths than the Soviets suffered in 4 short years of WW2. Fighting in a hive with billions of humans in them should require tens of millions of attackers - and at that point you need more than some Regiments of Imperial Guard with a Chapter's worth of Space Marines to stiffen the front lines. Not many of even the best Black Library authors handle this well, because it's hard to tell human stories in such a gigantic, industrialized war. Also, Space Marines seem to consistently fight enemies without beyond visual range weaponry, air superiority, or significant artillery or armor. You can be a one man walking fortress able to pull as many people limb from limb as you can get your hands on, but it's still not going to help you if your position is targeted by precision guided munitions launched from over the horizon. And even if they can shoot down hypersonic missiles, eventually they run out of bolter shells.
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May 2, 2023 01:06
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Man a lot of the early short stories are really loving good and neat in ways the more recent one's are not. Angels is about a kid on a feral world watch a squad of marines defend his town from beastmen. It reads predominantly like a warhammer fantasy novel since the kid has zero frame of refrence for what the marines are and what they have. Hellbreak is about a comissar staging a prison break in commoragh and has likely one of the biggest "gently caress you" moments I think I've read in a 40k novel.
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May 2, 2023 02:30
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Black Griffon posted:Ok so if we consider a fully armed and armored squad of terminators dropping into Rome during the Imperial era, you split them up into three fireteams with one lead by the captain or sergeant, and you drop or teleport them onto the Palatine Hill before splitting up. I would go for a drop pod assault because the psychological impact is probably 80% the damage in this scenario. Fireteam primaris, lead by the captain, immediately prioritizes the destruction and wholesale slaughter of any governmental structure and institution around the hill, supported by the two other fireteams as they make their way north and south from the drop-site. The forums and the capitol and the grand displays of power are turned to slag and rubble with melta fire and thunder hammer. At this point, only minutes into the operation, Rome is shaking with unholy fire and the screams of thousands of people, soon to be tens of thousand, soon to be a million. couldnt put the whole thing in but the last couple paragraph. https://soundcloud.com/dapper-73299...=social_sharing 11 ai is fun
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May 2, 2023 03:08
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Brendan Rodgers posted:So it's not confirmed yet since it happens off-camera after the Scouring, but doesn't Dorn get killed by a bunch of poorly armed Chaos cultists? If a Space Marine was surrounded by 10 thousand cultists who were each armed with, lets say, a 0AD era gladius and shield, would he really win? lol you need to read the end and the death and not believe the propaganda imo Dorn is falling to Khorne out of boredom after getting stuck in the warp for what feels to him like centuries e: Dorn lives is a threat Relevant Tangent fucked around with this message at 04:38 on May 2, 2023 |
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May 2, 2023 04:35
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Relevant Tangent posted:lol you need to read the end and the death and not believe the propaganda imo as cool as that would be we have confirmation that dorn remained loyal in the War of the Beast saga
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May 2, 2023 04:42
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Honestly I think the concept of Dorn being so dispassionate, logical, and in control that it skeeves the absolute gently caress out of Chaos pretty baller, and ties nicely into the interpretation that Chaos/Khorne was really just offering him a way to vent his pent up emotion and release him of his duty. Also like outside of maybe Angron all the chaos primarchs are huge loving babies and I do not think GW has the chops to fix this currently.
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May 2, 2023 04:46
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counterpoint: Dorn falling to Chaos makes the entire setting more interesting.
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May 2, 2023 04:48
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nah not really, not unless lorgar redeems or similar. the idea that loyalties aren’t set in stone and people who made a choice can remake it later is kind of neat, but it has to flow in both directions, otherwise it’s just more “chaos corrupts even noble souls!” which we already have enough of.
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May 2, 2023 04:51
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Curze did nothing wrong One Night Lord could take Earth at current tech levels, especially if he only flayed the wealthy and powerful.
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May 2, 2023 04:51
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Relevant Tangent posted:One Night Lord could take Earth at current tech levels, especially if he only flayed the wealthy and powerful. Kurze is like Neil Breen in Pass Thru. In human terms, he has killed them all.
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May 2, 2023 04:54
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:nah not really, not unless lorgar redeems or similar. the idea that loyalties aren’t set in stone and people who made a choice can remake it later is kind of neat, but it has to flow in both directions, otherwise it’s just more “chaos corrupts even noble souls!” which we already have enough of. Agreed, it's kinda boring concept in full, though it's interesting to play around with the temptation of it. Just actually do something with the chaos primarchs, they are right loving there and most of the time don't do poo poo. Edit: Honestly it would have to be written perfectly to not reek of the "Chaos always wins" poo poo that can permeate GW writting sometimes. That poo poo was rife in Fantasy but lead to some fun moments when it intersected with the table top player base who also thought it was garbage. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 04:58 on May 2, 2023 |
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May 2, 2023 04:54
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I dont find the "what if a primarch fell after the heresy" idea very compelling but what I am interested in is the idea if whether a surviving Primarch would even want to come back after seeing what humanity has become. Bobby G sees a problem that needs fixing and now Lionel is using his second chance for a shot at redemption. Vulkan never stopped being himself and will likely be the same should he show up again. But the Khan, Leman, Corvus or Dorn?
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May 2, 2023 05:03
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Arc Hammer posted:I dont find the "what if a primarch fell after the heresy" idea very compelling but what I am interested in is the idea if whether a surviving Primarch would even want to come back after seeing what humanity has become. Bobby G sees a problem that needs fixing and now Lionel is using his second chance for a shot at redemption. Khan and Leman would be very angry and try to fix things, probably violently. Those two have the biggest chance of kicking off a civil war. I think Corvus is in full on "Im going to gently caress you up" in regards to chaos and doesnt want to come back, and would likely get sent right back into the heart of poo poo if he did comeback because he's too weird now. Dorn would probably pair well with Gulliman and work on establishing front lines against various threats while Gulliman deals with internal poo poo. Outside of Corvus they'd all want to come back and try to fix things because they have very strong opinons about poo poo.
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May 2, 2023 05:10
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Dorn is loyal to the Imperium to a fault and also absurdly dedicated to his craft. He could very well still be alive and moving towards Terra but keeps getting sidtracked because he notices that the hive cities have crumbling infrastructure and SOMEBODY has to pour some spackle on that poo poo.
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May 2, 2023 05:29
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Khan was already "gently caress you leave me alone I'm gonna do my own thing" except for the actual boots on the ground on Terra so I think he would be more likely to just be disgusted and go off and do things that might help the Imperium but without any direct involvement. What I would like to see is Guilliman turning over Indomitus to the Lion and going back to Terra to knock heads in a 10 book Chris Wraight series in the vein of Watchers.
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May 2, 2023 05:31
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Khan and Corvus tag teaming through the eye of terror would be an amazing loving book.
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May 2, 2023 05:41
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The most interesting thing to happen with a Chaos Primarch is Magnus. Not him coming back, not him loving things up/getting hosed up, but in actually establishing a political domain by manifesting Sortiarius into realspace, then reclaiming Prospero, then saying, "gently caress you this is ours now" and establishing a wizard kingdom that just kinda does its own thing. I'm not even sure where this material comes from, being secondhand, other than possibly campaign books, but it deserves a novel.
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May 2, 2023 06:11
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The latest (I think) Mephiston book revolves around but but I don't recommend reading it. E: City of Light Here's a spoiler writeup on reddit to save anyone from having to read it like I did. It's clearly ESL but readable and he keeps calling him Menphiston which is killing me https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/e7sjft/summary_for_menphiston_city_of_light/ sharknado slashfic fucked around with this message at 06:36 on May 2, 2023 |
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May 2, 2023 06:28
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That’s really Dorn though isn’t it - Every Primarch embodies a trait, which can be good or bad depending on how it’s framed, and Dorn is Obsession. Horus Lupercal was Pride/Hubris, Angron was Suffering (which became Rage) and so on… They’re all broken in different ways, and just some of them got more broken than others.
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May 2, 2023 07:28
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