|
NihilCredo posted:Do you remember in which story that happened? Daemonblood by Ben Counter.
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 18:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 05:38 |
|
|
Outgunned was great fun and involves no space marines which puts it in the top 10% of 40k books easily I actually remember almost all the major plot bears a year later which is more than I can say for most bolter porn. Also I’m struggling through the first few pages of the new lion book and after reading real fiction for six months it’s just brutally meh writing to come back to
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 19:19
|
|
Cat Army 
|
Calax posted:Admittedly I kinda read the books up to Istvaan, then skipped to the siege, but isn't Fulgrims entire development "I'm super prideful, oh, whoops that was the Daemon in the sword, and now he killed my brother... I'm going to hide inside myself while a daemon takes the wheel". It was unfortunately rushed like so much else of the early heresy books. The compressed beginning and stretched ending is a big part of why the HH is so uneven.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 19:24
|
|
|
Theotus posted:I always felt like Clone Fulgrim was set up for precisely that possibility. I honestly would rather something like that happen than say, Russ shows back up because wolf reasons. That said I'd be extremely down for the Khan to randomly stumble out of the webway somewhere. Angel Exterminautus unfortunately makes it pretty explicit that Fulgrim got back control of his body
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 19:26
|
|
|
notaspy posted:Watching the leviathan video and I have a thought about the utter waste it shows Basically, all modern industrialised warfare is attritional to a greater or lesser degree, and this would presumably be true of the Imperium's wars as well. That fundamentally doesn't work with the heroism and established personalities of the Space Marines so we all agree to ignore it. All the post rogue-trader fluff basically says marines are all invincible heroes who have taken part in dozens of campaigns, are a match for any number of enemies, there are only a thousand in a Chapter but even a Company of a hundred can smash militarised worlds overnight, etc etc. This clearly can't be reconciled with the other factions' background, e.g. Tyranids are portrayed as an endless tide of monsters, we can safely assume they'd commit more than a thousand carnifexes amongst the other forces involved in the invasion of a world, and a space marine can't usually kill a carnifex single handed. If the Imperium were only waging wars against separatists, rebels etc, all humans with a level of tech and organisation at or below that of the Imperial Guard, you can see how space marines could survive and become enormously experienced, similarly to how the longest-serving soldiers in modern western special forces can have done a lot of tours and seen a lot of action over the last 22 years, and survived (not all of them by any means). Because their opposition was inferior in training, intelligence preparation, weaponry and support. But even in that situation it would mean Space Marines being employed as special forces, IE for recon (not really their forte as enormous walking tanks) or strikes on high value targets. The way things like the new 40k trailer tend to portray it, marines are being used as frontline shock troops against enemy forces, and that just wouldn't be possible without taking heavy casualties. So I don't find it very engaging either because it just seems so pointless. Still better than stuff like that Blood Angels animation, which epitomises the dumb plots of so many SM centred bolter porn books. These "elite" soldiers bumble into a situation with no idea of what they're facing or even what their objective is, they get attacked, they take horrific casualties and their units get rendered combat ineffective, ultimately a couple plucky survivors strike a desperate blow and kill the enemy leader, so all the enemies die/give up/melt away. This is ultimately because 40k bolter porn fiction follows the conventions of pulp adventure novels, it isn't military fiction. Dan Annett is one of the only authors that puts a bit more military trapping into his stuff, although it's still fairly unrealistic, and as someone mentioned already, he has a great story about a Tyranid invasion called the "Death of Malvolion" (the name of a planet which forms the setting). Basically, the Tyranids absolutely overrun a planet, the story is from the view of a terrified survivor fleeing amidst it. The SM drop assault in and he thinks they're saved, then the SM all get overwhelmed and wiped out inside 20 minutes, because ultimately there are fewer than a hundred of them and the Tyranids are innumerable. It's a really good gut punch of a story, and to me it encapsulates both how utterly hosed the Imperium is trying to face the nids, and how silly SM numbers are in such a setting. Genghis Cohen fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Apr 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 19:43
|
|
|
That's why you have Cawl and his primaris marine factories though. What you've said is very true of the old fluff and they've clearly decided to put a wrench in it by making marine numbers really fuzzy by giving them plot # of reinforcements in the form of primaris. Entire legion of Blood Angels eaten by Tyranids? No problem here's another.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 19:53
|
|
|
Improbable Lobster posted:Angel Exterminautus unfortunately makes it pretty explicit that Fulgrim got back control of his body Eh, I still don't buy it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 19:59
|
|
|
Black Griffon posted:Eh, I still don't buy it. I choose to ignore it
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 20:00
|
|
|
The Urdesh series does a good job of showing how the marines fit into the context of a larger war; they're powerful and effective in their niche and are great at smashing one target, but they can't carry a war on their backs. The Iron Snakes are always moving at top speed and being as disruptive as possible when they attack so they can keep the enemy from concentrating fire on them -- they go through a lot of munitions, and they have a huge logistical footprint for a couple squads of guys. The Saint coordinating the battle is far more impactful than their actions, but they're here to protect her and take out priority targets that no one else can get to.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 20:31
|
|
|
Improbable Lobster posted:I choose to ignore it This is one of my favorite things about the setting. Just pick and choose what you want.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 20:33
|
|
|
Genghis Cohen posted:Basically, all modern industrialised warfare is attritional to a greater or lesser degree, and this would presumably be true of the Imperium's wars as well. That fundamentally doesn't work with the heroism and established personalities of the Space Marines so we all agree to ignore it. Doesn't even have to be modern or industrial, look at the Second Punic War, Hannibal was winning battles while outnumbered and outsupplied, deep in enemy territory, almost like a Deep Strike, and despite inflicting massive losses was simply ground down by Romans who formalised/invented guerilla warfare in the process (aka the Fabian strategy). We're meant to believe some Terminators teleporting in and killing their leader instantly collapses their army and population's will to fight, like it's an objective you capture in a video game, ending the level. Would a single squad of Terminators even be able to take the city of Rome?
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 20:48
|
|
|
Unfortunately some idiots decided to quit with Fabian's attrition tactics against Hannibal and proceeded to get 80,000 men killed in one day.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 20:50
|
|
|
Brendan Rodgers posted:Would a single squad of Terminators even be able to take the city of Rome? A single marine could take this whole planet, now
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 20:51
|
|
|
notaspy posted:A single marine could take this whole planet, now Even ignoring nukes or fighter-bombers or missile drones, how would he take on a tank formation with infantry support?
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 20:53
|
|
|
Like how many Imperial Guard would be needed to take on a Space Marine? Surely nowhere near a planet's worth.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 21:01
|
|
|
Brendan Rodgers posted:Even ignoring nukes or fighter-bombers or missile drones, how would he take on a tank formation with infantry support? bolterd
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 21:02
|
|
|
Brendan Rodgers posted:Even ignoring nukes or fighter-bombers or missile drones, how would he take on a tank formation with infantry support? Depends on the chapter. Dark Angels would do it with some cool guns then never talk about it Blood Angels would jump in and smash them to pieces with their bare hands You get the drift However, if it was a custodes it would literally just kick them over
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 21:02
|
|
|
A single marine would struggle against the entire planet, but a squad of terminators could easily take Rome.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 21:04
|
|
|
So it's not confirmed yet since it happens off-camera after the Scouring, but doesn't Dorn get killed by a bunch of poorly armed Chaos cultists? If a Space Marine was surrounded by 10 thousand cultists who were each armed with, lets say, a 0AD era gladius and shield, would he really win?
Brendan Rodgers fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Apr 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 21:06
|
|
|
Ok but a) the ancient romans were presumably not powered by Chaos, b) you said squad of terminators earlier and now you've bargained down to one space marine and c) Dorne Lives!
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 21:16
|
|
|
Black Griffon posted:Ok but a) the ancient romans were presumably not powered by Chaos, b) you said squad of terminators earlier and now you've bargained down to one space marine c) Dorne Lives! Yeah I mixed it all up a bit, but the Terminators would be dealing with much more than one Legion if they had to take and hold Rome in a meaningful way. Consider the US taking Baghdad 3 weeks into the Iraq war. All that shock and awe didn't cause any kind of "compliance", it was just an opening salvo in a long war. There's only so much ground those Terminators can cover.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 21:21
|
|
|
Brendan Rodgers posted:Like how many Imperial Guard would be needed to take on a Space Marine? Surely nowhere near a planet's worth. Keeler did the calculation in Warhawk. About 200 starving refugees would be needed to overpower a single marine to the point where someone could stick a screwdriver into his eye.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 21:23
|
|
|
Z the IVth posted:Keeler did the calculation in Warhawk. About 200 starving refugees would be needed to overpower a single marine to the point where someone could stick a screwdriver into his eye. That's much more reasonable. Inbetween the tabletop Space Marine who loses to one bad roll, and the named protagonist who takes on a Swarmlord, there's a "reasonable marine".
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 21:25
|
|
|
Space Marines make much more sense if they have billions of Imperial Guard with them. The IG take most of the planet while the SM take out the command and control, elite enemies, key infrastructure etc. Trying to imagine 1000 SM taking a planet is just funny imo.They would be extremely busy.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 21:49
|
|
|
The Imperium's armed forces were much more effective during the Great Crusade, yes.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 21:55
|
|
|
I've gotten back into Dawn of War 2: The Last Stand lately, the coop wave-survival mode, and I feel bad for Tyranid fans when I take out a Swarmlord with one launch of Anti-Armor Missiles from my T'au Battlesuit. Now that's warfare.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 21:58
|
|
|
Brendan Rodgers posted:Space Marines make much more sense if they have billions of Imperial Guard with them. The IG take most of the planet while the SM take out the command and control, elite enemies, key infrastructure etc. Trying to imagine 1000 SM taking a planet is just funny imo.They would be extremely busy. At that point in time you are talking a full chapter. Which has tanks, dreads, thunderhawks, etc. They would loving ruin Rome.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 22:16
|
|
|
Brendan Rodgers posted:I've gotten back into Dawn of War 2: The Last Stand lately, the coop wave-survival mode, and I feel bad for Tyranid fans when I take out a Swarmlord with one launch of Anti-Armor Missiles from my T'au Battlesuit. Now that's warfare. What a great game Dawn of War 2 was.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 22:19
|
|
|
wiegieman posted:The Urdesh series does a good job of showing how the marines fit into the context of a larger war; they're powerful and effective in their niche and are great at smashing one target, but they can't carry a war on their backs. The Iron Snakes are always moving at top speed and being as disruptive as possible when they attack so they can keep the enemy from concentrating fire on them -- they go through a lot of munitions, and they have a huge logistical footprint for a couple squads of guys. The Saint coordinating the battle is far more impactful than their actions, but they're here to protect her and take out priority targets that no one else can get to. yeah. i always viewd them as basicaly super duper commandos who have different nichs and can take most threats and survive but are only really great as tip of the spear poo poo or being used as fodder against big monsters. Brendan Rodgers posted:Space Marines make much more sense if they have billions of Imperial Guard with them. The IG take most of the planet while the SM take out the command and control, elite enemies, key infrastructure etc. Trying to imagine 1000 SM taking a planet is just funny imo.They would be extremely busy. yeah, the guard is the hammer and the marines are the scapal or at leasta smaller hammer. Astartes are also great for shock and awe poo poo. you have a planet that rebeled and is mostly PDF dickheads and maybe some inbred royal guard. you drop couple squads of astarties. and they take the planet in a month.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 22:21
|
|
|
Brendan Rodgers posted:Space Marines make much more sense if they have billions of Imperial Guard with them. The IG take most of the planet while the SM take out the command and control, elite enemies, key infrastructure etc. Trying to imagine 1000 SM taking a planet is just funny imo.They would be extremely busy. That's how they're supposed to operate though. Drop in, decapitate the enemy and run off again. Someone upthread suggested the Urdesh series and they're right. The marines are there to gently caress up the enemy's sorcerous artillery battery, to ride on a warhound and to go toe to toe with the greater daemons and stop the warpy stuff before it eats the planet. Could the Guard to the same with simple expenditure of arms and ammunition? Most likely but by the time you get a battalion through a swamp and into the ritual site everyone would have nine tongues and cannot scream.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 22:22
|
|
|
Brendan Rodgers posted:So it's not confirmed yet since it happens off-camera after the Scouring, but doesn't Dorn get killed by a bunch of poorly armed Chaos cultists? If a Space Marine was surrounded by 10 thousand cultists who were each armed with, lets say, a 0AD era gladius and shield, would he really win? Depends, is he defending an objective? I'm only half joking, a huge part of the setting is about the ideal that a primarch embodies, and Dorn is the defender and so that's where he's at his most powerful.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 22:25
|
|
|
A lot of the impact of space marines is psychological. You’re dug in against the Guard and in the middle of grinding attritional warfare, when suddenly out of nowhere a squad of transhuman giants smashes into one of your hardest points, shrugs off everything you throw at them, slaughters like fifty times their weight in troops, assassinates/blows up an important target, and vanishes. Maybe one of them dies but probably not. You have no idea what that was, whether the imperium can do it again, how many times etc. That doesn’t work if they’re frontline troops, which is really not their strength. They’re so fast and so precise that they can strike, accomplish their objective and withdraw before you have the chance to organize the kind of resistance that can pose a threat to a marine. In the Crusade era you could have grinding attritional warfare with Marines (still with massive Army support) but there aren’t enough of them left for that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 22:54
|
|
|
Brendan Rodgers posted:. Trying to imagine 1000 SM taking a planet is just funny imo.They would be extremely busy. Or a 10 Billion inhabitant hive with the dimensions of a 100 New York Cities stacked on top of each other.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 23:02
|
|
|
My joke was solid and you guys suxk for not appreciating it
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 23:10
|
|
|
Ok so if we consider a fully armed and armored squad of terminators dropping into Rome during the Imperial era, you split them up into three fireteams with one lead by the captain or sergeant, and you drop or teleport them onto the Palatine Hill before splitting up. I would go for a drop pod assault because the psychological impact is probably 80% the damage in this scenario. Fireteam primaris, lead by the captain, immediately prioritizes the destruction and wholesale slaughter of any governmental structure and institution around the hill, supported by the two other fireteams as they make their way north and south from the drop-site. The forums and the capitol and the grand displays of power are turned to slag and rubble with melta fire and thunder hammer. At this point, only minutes into the operation, Rome is shaking with unholy fire and the screams of thousands of people, soon to be tens of thousand, soon to be a million. Claw and hammer is more than sufficient to deal with any conceivable human threat at this point, and fireteam secundus and tertiarius burn out any vital infrastructure with melta and heavy flamer. Granaries are set alight, any temple is toppled, vigiles urbani are dispatched with single shot bolter fire or melee weapon and their garrisons, towers and watch houses are destroyed. A wall of blood, death and fire is the wake of their unstoppable march. Team secundus marches directly through the walls of Rome and get to work on the fields. Every field of wheat burns with the cruel flame of heavy flamer prometheum, and they march clockwise around the wall, cracking open every gate and watchtower with hammer and melta. Team tertiarius turns towards the Tiber as they near the walls and turn every barge and pleasure boat into kindling. The bridges are crushed to rubble, any opposition is cast into the water. In short time, the Tiber flows with bodies and gore, entrails caught on flaming debris. The water is black with the accumulated horror. Fireteam primaris, after dispensing with the center of governance, patrols the hills of Rome like a metronomic automaton, up and down and up and down. At each apex they communicate with the rest of the squad, using high-gain auspexes to gather intelligence and reconnoiter. They keep an eagle eye out for any potential political prisoners, gathering them up and eventually herding them into a circus where they execute them. It does not matter that great crowds are not gathered for this. Some terrified eyes will always be watching from the shadows, and they carry word to the rest of the city. Working with a somewhat floating and vague timeline, we can assume that the garrison of the city is smaller than what we might imagine.The praetorian guard in the city major is by law barred from bearing armor and they must keep their weapons out of sight. The considerable force on the hill is more to be reckoned with, but they are the primary target after the drop and their worst case scenario is a coup involving soldiers armed with gladius and bow, not demigods raining explosive fire. The cohortes urbanae number a few thousand, and are divided across the vast city. If any of these forces manage to organize before their barracks are burned out, they must navigate vast swathes of panicked citizenry and spreading fires to reach targets that are constantly on the move, never resting, never needing rest. As they near the enemy, their comrades explode into fountains of gore, felling the men by their sides with scything bone fragments. From vox grills rings a regular and constant "There is only one Emperor, and He is eternal", but few can recognize this dialect out of time. - Imagine Rome. Imagine the eternal city with its arches and temples resplendent in the evening sun. Imagine its citizens, walking the flagstones in discourse and debate. The smell of fresh threshed wheat and the aroma of deep red wine. A testament to order and ingenuity, a city of a million people. Do you see? The sky is a carpet of black smoke from horizon to horizon, the fields are burning, the Tiber has turned to blood. You approach with your legionaries from the south, the words of the governor of Velletri still fresh in your mind. He screamed. He screamed of the riders falling from exhausted horses, who in turn rasped out incomprehensible fragments of crystalized fears. Walking gods. You pour water from your canteens over rags and tie them around your face, but the smoke is still torturous. The wall is cracked, bodies litter the streets around the gates. You divide your men into groups and form shield walls covering the streets radiating into the city from the broken gate. The city burns, the citizens smolder. A slow death of life and hope, a dazed march across flagstones painted in soot and blood. They smolder like a dying flame, the cinders of a broken soul. In the baths of carcalla, the bodies of esteemed nobles float face down. You move through the ruins of the baths and it is there that you die. The god—for you cannot in good conscience call this a demigod—walks out of the smoke and dust. He walks, he does not run. One swipe from his hammer throws half a dozen men aside, their bodies pulped, wet smacks as they hit the ruined columns. The second god is right behind him, a glow like blue fire in his grasp. A lance of pure hell tears through the ruins, boiling the bloody water to vapor by its mere vicinity. The legionaries in the path of the beam are not just slain, but rendered into something you will never have the words to describe. The god taps you lightly with the haft of his hammer and your skull caves in like a watermelon kicked by a horse. What is compliance? It is a small word and a big word. Once, it was philosophy, once it was mission and purpose. That mission and that purpose died ten thousand years ago and in thirty thousand years. Now? Compliance is a process, a tool, a luxury. Is Rome compliant? It will be, until it's not, until it's ground to glass beneath boots that do not tire. A thousand thousand legionaries can stream through the streets of Rome but they stream across a city turning more and more into broken stone and scorching fire. They will tire, we will not. Fusion drives our impenetrable armor, faith drives our untiring souls. My claws have been tempered in the blood of the xenos and the daemon, my holy bolter forged in wars across the galaxy. What does your eternal city hold for me but mere practice? Black Griffon fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Apr 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 23:17
|
|
|
Black Griffon posted:<snip> They sent a poet.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 23:39
|
|
|
Genghis Cohen posted:Basically, all modern industrialised warfare is attritional to a greater or lesser degree, and this would presumably be true of the Imperium's wars as well. That fundamentally doesn't work with the heroism and established personalities of the Space Marines so we all agree to ignore it. I think this comes down to really three big factors. 1) The idea of planetary engagements being something "quick" in Warhammer 40k (where an entire battle for a planet can be completed in days/weeks rather than counted in years) 2) Space marines being the measuring stick GW uses to measure everyone else with 3) the general relative tech level between anyone wearing power armor, and anyone NOT wearing it. The first is something ANY sci-fi universe has as an issue. It took us 10ish years to see WW2 to the end, and that was without the idea of Berlin getting supplies dropped in from space. Stalingrad by itself took 5 months before the stalemate could be broken. And yet in most sci-fi universes, there's one exchange of gunfire on a mountain somewhere and the entire planet's future is decided. This can be alleviated in 40k with the idea that realistically, what you are effecting is more regime change than actually wiping out the society. No matter how much crazy stuff is happening at the upper echelons of power, generally the lower levels aren't going to be effected if the planetary governor is replaced from one cult to the other. I remember seeing a discussion from Battletech authors about having to just throw out the actual realities of inter-stellar warfare because you'd be talking about to big a sense of scale. The second is something that genuinely should be addressed but we probably won't. Space Marines are supposed to be a relative rarity, but they fulfill a power fantasy for people. This brings about their ABSURD popularity and leads to stories of everything being compared to a Space Marine in terms of combat power. A genestealer can tear apart a terminator, but it's just supposed to be a 'scout' organism to draw the main hive fleet, for example. I get that part of the IG/Astra Militarum's point is that they can just swamp the enemy with bodies, but their opponents in the "horde" catagory are Tryanids and Orks. In general Orks have been portrayed as being able to be on the same scale as a Marine, which leads to a little confusion when an Ork Warband goes up against a planet and fails. The Third is something that gets left by the wayside as the writer focuses on Marines vs Marines. The two best examples of this I can think of are 1) The fact that the Sisters of Battle managed to hold off marine assaults during the Age of Apostacy because they had power armor and thus, were able to bring similar levels of weaponry to bare against their opponents. 2) Spears of the Emperor, when a flashback talks about the main Marine just mopping the floor with the commanders of a rebel group by himself after a failed parley. It means that they just shrug off anything that isn't a bolter bolt and keep fighting as they carve up their target.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 00:48
|
|
|
Realistically if a hundred space marines dropped from orbit on Berlin and wiped out the entire Nazi high command the war would have effectively been over. Like I am sure tons of Germans would have decided to keep fighting but without a central authority to coordinate things the allies would have had a much easier time of it and if any other centers of power started coalescing the space marines just could have done it again. The space marines make the most sense as a decapitation strike force but as many of you have pointed out it all breaks down in most other situations.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 01:03
|
|
|
I actually think space marines make more sense for galactic conquest than the guard does. Landing on a planet, committing hundreds of millions of men and billions of tons of materiel into a grinding war, winning, and then packing up and doing it again, is just not a feasible way to conquer a galaxy. Apart from anything else, are you going to leave planet scale garrisons everywhere you go? The best way to conquer the galaxy is to suborn local rulers and leave existing power structures in place, let them police their own people, and the best way to do that is to make an example of some of the local leaders to terrify the rest into submission. And the Astartes are the best at that. You don’t need a giant mass of Guardsmen; you just need the local kings and presidents to know that if they don’t pay their tithe, the Astartes are coming back.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 01:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 05:38 |
|
|
D-Pad posted:Realistically if a hundred space marines dropped from orbit on Berlin and wiped out the entire Nazi high command the war would have effectively been over. Like I am sure tons of Germans would have decided to keep fighting but without a central authority to coordinate things the allies would have had a much easier time of it and if any other centers of power started coalescing the space marines just could have done it again. The space marines make the most sense as a decapitation strike force but as many of you have pointed out it all breaks down in most other situations. The Nazi high-ups traveled all over the place and were hardly ever all in one city. That said, a hundred space marines killing as many government functionaries as they could find in Berlin would probably undermine the German state by a lot.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 03:55
|
|
