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Earwicker posted:my trouble with this is that people tend to frame the latter as peaceful and generally against violence, while the former literally only exists in the form it does, and only has the power it does, because of violence. If I had to guess, speaking as some idiot with at least a partial external view, the answer would likely be something like: Christianity became the state religion in the declining OG Roman Empire, which was certainly open to violence, and Christian religious activity was an organizing force when Roman political authority broke down in the West. (Christianity also endured in the Eastern Roman Empire, which trucked on for another thousand years and put down deep roots.) Quirks of the interior logic of Christianity have also led to particular atrocities oriented towards religious activities, because they created a value structure which permitted such things at certain times; and as more of a side note, we should also note that most historical persons also actually believed in their religion, even if it might not have been the only thing informing their behavior. Responsibility is an interesting question. What do you mean by responsibility in this context? Many horrible things were done in Jesus's name, and are being done to this day, but if you are, for instance, a cradle Catholic, how responsible are you for things advocated by various Evangelical churches, even if you live in the same country?
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May 19, 2023 17:42
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Nessus posted:Responsibility is an interesting question. What do you mean by responsibility in this context? Many horrible things were done in Jesus's name, and are being done to this day, but if you are, for instance, a cradle Catholic, how responsible are you for things advocated by various Evangelical churches, even if you live in the same country? in the same way that i, as an american, benefit from and thus share some shred of responsibility for the atrocities of america and the power structures that came before it. i live in los angeles in a building full of people who speak either english and spanish, neither of which would be spoken here had it not been for the imperialistic conquests and oppressive occupation by the united states, mexico, and spain. obviously i was not there and did not do those things myself, nor can i reverse them, but i still benefit from them and participate in modern society here, as such "taking responsibility" means that its part of my role as a modern american, via voting and canvassing and protesting and volunteering and the like, to try to push in what little way i can against those imperialistic tendencies in current and future policy. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 17:52 on May 19, 2023 |
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May 19, 2023 17:49
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Earwicker posted:in the same way that i, as an american, benefit from and thus share some shred of responsibility for the atrocities of america and the power structures that came before it. i live in los angeles in a building full of people who speak either english and spanish, neither of which would be spoken here had it not been for the imperialistic conquests and oppressive occupation by the united states, mexico, and spain. obviously i was not there and did not do those things myself, nor can i reverse them, but i still benefit from them and participate in modern society here, as such "taking responsibility" means that its part of my role as a modern american, via voting and canvassing and protesting and volunteering and the like, to try to push in what little way i can against those imperialistic tendencies in current and future policy.
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May 19, 2023 17:55
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Not necessarily anger is in the gap between what ought to be and what is. I just wanna say I quite like this song and I don't think it's angry at all. It's about unity, not just "hate the capitalist pigs and rich and bosses." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w099Q6knSY4 None of this songs make me feel any sort of destructive impulse. The point is to win over hearts and minds. Also I've always been fascinated by the 60s and 70s radical movements. So much hope, so much potential. There was a lot of division even among the most dedicated socialist about violence. MLK is the oen everyone remembers now but there were lots of leaders in the movement who opposed violence. Although they sure never bring up during MLK Day each year how the government tried to get him to kill himself. If Lenin was right on anything, it's about how the ruling powers turn radical symbols to their own ends. That's the reason MLK is probably so famous to this day while so many other leaders have been forgotten. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 00:10 on May 20, 2023 |
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May 20, 2023 00:04
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What I meant was that - okay I'm a cradle Catholic. Fell away from the faith in my 20s-30s and now believe again though I don't go to church. There is beauty and grace in the religion itself. In the teaching of Jesus, in the Eucharist, in the spiritual experience of it. The fact that over the years people have used the faith as an excuse to pillage and murder and torment is separate from anything Jesus ever said and separate from my experience of Catholicism *as a religious and spiritual thing*. But the thread doesn't really talk about spiritual experience these days. And I am less than uninterested in trying to wash away the historical sins of the institution of Catholicism. The blood and pain and intolerance and evil done in the name of something that ought to be better.
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May 20, 2023 01:25
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Josef bugman posted:Several things, first off do you believe that a text can only be read one way "correctly" because this appears to be the persons conjecture here. For second are we just declaring that things that seem improbable to have happened in the bible because "surely Jesus would have been overwhelmed by the money changers" cannot have happened. If so might I gesture to the entirety of The Resurrection as an unlikely occurrence and perhaps it should be read as metaphor.
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May 20, 2023 01:45
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HopperUK posted:The fact that over the years people have used the faith as an excuse to pillage and murder and torment is separate from anything Jesus ever said and separate from my experience of Catholicism *as a religious and spiritual thing*. I'm not talking about faith being used as an "excuse" to pillage and torment. i'm talking about the fact that the reason Christianity is so widespread today is specifically because of its use of violence to spread the religion, not as an "excuse" but literally under direct orders from the heads of religious institutions, the Catholic church being a prime example.
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May 20, 2023 01:56
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NikkolasKing posted:I just wanna say I quite like this song and I don't think it's angry at all. It's about unity, not just "hate the capitalist pigs and rich and bosses." The civil right era discussion is why I’m referencing Niebuhr. King looks to Niebuhr and explicitly characterized his approach as based in Niebuhr’s thinking. Union Theological Seminary is where African American pastors are being sent from in the thirties to study non violence with Gandhi by Niebuhr. Niebuhr has a bad stroke which keeps him away from the third Montgomery March. But as to the songs and anger… there are different types of anger. Not all anger is aggressive like rage. Anger can be assertive or even passive. Think of love, eros, agape, philia, and storge. Anger has different types too! That’s probably some of the difference in this conversation.
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May 20, 2023 02:03
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Listen to the difference in Ante Up and Hit 'Em Up. MOP is Angry/Hype. Tupac is legit seething with rage.
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May 20, 2023 02:14
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Bar Ran Dun posted:The civil right era discussion is why I’m referencing Niebuhr. King looks to Niebuhr and explicitly characterized his approach as based in Niebuhr’s thinking. Union Theological Seminary is where African American pastors are being sent from in the thirties to study non violence with Gandhi by Niebuhr. Niebuhr has a bad stroke which keeps him away from the third Montgomery March. Those words are all from the Greek because the Greeks had several different words to denote several different kinds of love. One of Plato's most famous Dialogue is about a discussion of what love really is. But anger? Anger is one of the worst passions, the passions being something Greek Philosophy and through it Western Phil and Christianity warns against at almost every turn. Now the Greeks got a lot of things wrong - Reason vs. Passion is, s we know now, a totally false dichotomy. But anger is looked down upon by many different philosophical and religious traditions so far as I'm aware. It's just the root of evil whereas love is a root of many goods hence the different words for it.
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May 20, 2023 02:38
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Earwicker posted:I'm not talking about faith being used as an "excuse" to pillage and torment. i'm talking about the fact that the reason Christianity is so widespread today is specifically because of its use of violence to spread the religion, not as an "excuse" but literally under direct orders from the heads of religious institutions, the Catholic church being a prime example. I'm sure you're right.
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May 20, 2023 02:50
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NikkolasKing posted:But anger is looked down upon by many different philosophical and religious traditions so far as I'm aware. It's just the root of evil whereas love is a root of many goods hence the different words for it. Anger is a consequence of something being wrong not a cause. Look at the Bible. The LORD is often angry in the OT. Fierce, burning, abounding, furious, etc anger. The psalmist… often incredibly angry. It’s a part of being human. And it’s not the opposite of love. Anger is communicating concern and attention. What we care about deeply is what we get angry about, when it’s not what it ought to be. “Nothing is intrinsically immoral except ill-will and nothing intrinsically good except goodwill.” Moral Man and Immoral Society
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May 20, 2023 03:03
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The Opposite of Love is Apathy; Read Umineko no Naku Koro Ni, the greatest work ever written, to discover more.
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May 20, 2023 03:08
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> getting walked up to the wall by a fascist with an AR-15 "whats important is that I don't get angry rn" It's fun how you offer hating capitalist pigs as your first example of how bad anger is btw
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May 20, 2023 03:13
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Gaius Marius posted:The Opposite of Love is Apathy; Read Umineko no Naku Koro Ni, the greatest work ever written, to discover more. I can’t speak to the manga, but yes.
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May 20, 2023 03:25
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Visual Novel actually
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May 20, 2023 03:30
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Killingyouguy! posted:> getting walked up to the wall by a fascist with an AR-15 ...the song is about workers unionizing: Don't scab out for your bosses Don't listen to their lies Us poor old folk ain't got a chance Unless we organize If you interpret it as being angry, that could be "hate capitalist pigs and bosses." But that's not the tone from the lyrics or the beat to me. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 03:32 on May 20, 2023 |
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May 20, 2023 03:30
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It is in fact good and based to hate capitalist pigs
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May 20, 2023 03:37
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Killingyouguy! posted:> getting walked up to the wall by a fascist with an AR-15
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May 20, 2023 03:42
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Nihilism is a gigantic meme; that is all
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May 20, 2023 03:50
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i mean going by the original definition of meme, a sort of transferable "unit of culture", almost any religion or ideology or belief system can be seen as a collection of memes
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May 20, 2023 04:08
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Earwicker posted:i mean going by the original definition of meme, a sort of transferable "unit of culture", almost any religion or ideology or belief system can be seen as a collection of memes
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May 20, 2023 04:34
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If Religion thread wants to talk Metal Gear Solid 2, I'm down.
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May 20, 2023 04:58
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The New York Trilogy is abysmal.
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May 20, 2023 04:59
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NikkolasKing posted:If Religion thread wants to talk Metal Gear Solid 2, I'm down.
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May 20, 2023 05:14
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I'd say metal gear solid is a religious experience
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May 20, 2023 05:16
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Gaius Marius posted:I consider the argument with textual support more credulous than the ones without. Which textual support? It seems that for all the author attempts to make it clear their own idea is the real one that it is something that has been debated for nigh on a millennium and a half. It is also pretty interesting to claim textual support when that is never the be all and end all of document interpretation especially in a religious context. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 06:27 on May 20, 2023 |
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May 20, 2023 06:07
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Gaius Marius posted:I consider the argument with textual support more credulous than the ones without.
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May 20, 2023 06:19
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Killingyouguy! posted:I'd say metal gear solid is a religious experience
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May 20, 2023 06:41
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Killingyouguy! posted:It is in fact good and based to hate capitalist pigs
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May 20, 2023 06:42
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Keromaru5 posted:Yep, that's basically martyrdom. "Lord, do not hold this sin against them," says St. Stephen. No one should want Martyrdom, Christianity making it into a good thing to be is explicable, but it's also a deeply saddening thing.
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May 20, 2023 06:44
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Nessus posted:I think this sounds like you're looking for a way to resolve this paradox (and I would agree it is a paradox), but I don't think the answer will necessarily be "actually, the religion encourages violence, despite a preponderance of statements in opposition to violence." I'll be blunt, there's no paradox if one simply accepts that a lot of Christians historically have been hypocrites regarding the difference between what they preach and what they practice. That doesn't mean there isn't good to be found, or that the teachings are wrong, just that people and organizations are flawed and prone to do terrible things for power. The worst excesses of the Church's support for imperialism (or outright corruption and sale of religious apointments and indulgences back home) are matters of historical record.
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May 20, 2023 11:25
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Liquid Communism posted:I'll be blunt, there's no paradox if one simply accepts that a lot of Christians historically have been hypocrites regarding the difference between what they preach and what they practice. That doesn't mean there isn't good to be found, or that the teachings are wrong, just that people and organizations are flawed and prone to do terrible things for power. The worst excesses of the Church's support for imperialism (or outright corruption and sale of religious apointments and indulgences back home) are matters of historical record.
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May 20, 2023 21:05
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minor observation: Audio Bibles read by women are pretty rare, and the two I know of are both Protestant, one even Evangelical. I have this one already, it's the NIV New Testament. https://www.audible.com/pd/Pure-Voi...2b-8c8dceb62f2c And then the whole Bible based on English Standard Version I just found. https://www.audible.com/pd/ESV-Bibl...44-2bb7a157715e Looking up the ESV Wikipedia, a Catholic group actually criticized it for using terms like "mankind" and "brothers." Did not expect that. I do remember in a previous iteration of this thread I was told the kind of Catholics or Orthodox you tend to meet online are not very representative of the faith. So the Catholics I've seen in the past talking about "political correctness" in Bible translations are maybe just online weirdos after all. In any event, it's not like essential, but maybe someday there will be a Catholic Bible with a female narrator.
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May 20, 2023 21:25
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The way I've always seen it is an explicit expanding of the concepts rather than trying to imply "obviously, this sacred text meant specifically and solely a male group, and we wish to override the ancient and sacred text." This is probably a lot easier if the original materials you are working with are, say, in ancient languages, rather than when you have made a text in somewhat archaic English your foundational scripture. 
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May 20, 2023 21:33
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NikkolasKing posted:minor observation: Audio Bibles read by women are pretty rare, and the two I know of are both Protestant, one even Evangelical. There are a lot of Deeply Weird online Catholics, like the crowd that converted because evangelical protestantism wasn't hard enough into their idea of patriarchy. They aren't even conventionally faithful Catholics, given how much many of them complain about Vatican II's changes despite being born a generation or two later, more using appeals to tradition, pomp and liturgy as dress trappings for their arch-conservatism.
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May 20, 2023 23:07
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NikkolasKing posted:If Religion thread wants to talk Metal Gear Solid 2, I'm down. hell yeah lfgggggggggggggg
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May 21, 2023 00:17
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Liquid Communism posted:I'll be blunt, there's no paradox if one simply accepts that a lot of Christians historically have been hypocrites regarding the difference between what they preach and what they practice. That doesn't mean there isn't good to be found, or that the teachings are wrong, just that people and organizations are flawed and prone to do terrible things for power. The worst excesses of the Church's support for imperialism (or outright corruption and sale of religious apointments and indulgences back home) are matters of historical record. DING DING DING DING DING DING like literally right now (okay, actually monday because i had to put my baby boy down today) i am working with the episcopal church to try and even attempt to undo some of the horrific assimilation poo poo they did w/r/t boarding schools and anglicization of the indigenous populations, and im not alone a lot of us in the ECUSA are incredibly angry at the seemingly endless litany of the wrongs the church (the whole church) has done in order to both spread and maintain patriarchal white supremacist hegemony, and ignoring that history is a sin, in my opinion -- BUT -- this anger spurs positive change in the work we try to do to unmake a lot of this death of the spirit, the death of the message of christ what finally got me to come round was that there is categorically and explicitly no evangelism in these works -- we feed poor folks, we get resources to the rez, we try real fuckin hard to build bridges that by all rights should not exist because jesus said to help the least and so thats what we're gonna fuckin try and do so yeah any christian that willfully ignores the holocaust of violence that it took (is taking) to make christianity the "default" religion in the west is guilty of sin and they need to seek christ (unironically)
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May 21, 2023 00:26
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There's this weird new phenomenon among this group called the Manosphere or Red Pill where these guys are now "converting' to Islam because they think it's a more "traditional" way to hate women. Online weirdos just give all religions a bad name. I watch thee people cuz I hate them and I like to see them mocked and eviscerated. But that's part of the anger and hate I'm trying to move away from. It's not like it hurts them and the millios of dollars they rake in, and it sure does nothing for my own well-being apart from a temporary sense of self-righteousness. @MGS Spiritual Talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azHIWZxUgPY Raiden: Then what am I supposed to believe in? [Snake: We can tell other people about –- having faith. What we had faith in. What we found important enough to fight for. It’s not whether you were right or wrong, but how much faith you were willing to have, that decides the future. There's also a quote from another video game I grew up with called Xenosaga: "Then all we've done so far, all we've worked for was meaningless?" "It wasn't meaningless as long as you, yourself, believe it wasn't meaningless." These lines and ideas have stuck with me for decades now. It's not whether you win or lose in the end that should matter, it's that you bothered to care enough to fight in the first place that we should think about and value. It's that authentic conviction everyone is striving for.
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May 21, 2023 02:44
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I can't quite agree with Karen Armstrong's skeptical reading of the religious traditions in a History of God. I feel that the dichotomy of reading something into a text vs. it-was-always-there has a dialectical character. It's not quite one or the other.
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May 21, 2023 07:53
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