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Rigged Death Trap posted:Yeah this looks too messy for gojos work. I like the implication it was gakuganji, and gojos sly "maybe you should be in charge" was him saying he knows. By my observation, their deaths are actually a little CLEAN for Gojo's work. Victims of his technique tend to get juiced, or have all their extremities twisted off. These people died from hands being laid on them directly.
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May 21, 2023 21:05
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Rigged Death Trap posted:Yeah this looks too messy for gojos work. I like the implication it was gakuganji, and gojos sly "maybe you should be in charge" was him saying he knows.
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May 21, 2023 21:26
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Brought To You By posted:This being the same room that Yuta was ordered against Yuji, and Kenjaku's statements from before would indicate Kenjaku is the one who killed the higher ups. Yaga basically lucked out he didn't immediately report back to HQ because had he, Kenjaku would have killed him and removed the secret from cursed dolls from the world entirely by pure accident. And the page transition in the current chapter is just to tell us that Yaga is likely going to be one of the new heads of the organization. But the context involves https://manga4life.com/read-online/Jujutsu-Kaisen-chapter-223-page-5.html Gakuganji asking why he was not cursed, and Gojo answers that he did not curse someone he knows from Yaga. I assume that Gojo placed the curse on all the higherups that triggered upon him learning about the current status quo.
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May 21, 2023 23:52
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it doesn't sound like kenjaku necessarily killed all the higher-ups, just whoever was necessary to have the influence he wanted. then gojo killed the remaining ones just now. that's what makes the most sense anyway
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May 22, 2023 00:31
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all other things aside, i certainly dont think it's out of character for gojo to have just brutally killed them so i dont think the apparent method is particularly telling
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May 22, 2023 01:02
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I do like that the higher ups are such assholes that the list of suspects who could have killed them is a mile long
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May 22, 2023 01:09
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Flair posted:But the context involves https://manga4life.com/read-online/Jujutsu-Kaisen-chapter-223-page-5.html Gakuganji asking why he was not cursed, and Gojo answers that he did not curse someone he knows from Yaga. I assume that Gojo placed the curse on all the higherups that triggered upon him learning about the current status quo. I think you misunderstood, Gakuganji is basically asking why no one is holding Yaga’s death against him. No one is cursing him for it. (The mundane curse not the jujutsu curse) I think it’s basically how it’s worded in the Viz translation that confused you. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 01:39 on May 22, 2023 |
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May 22, 2023 01:37
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Gojo literally contemplated killing the higher ups on-screen at least once and he's long been unsatisfied with the way they run poo poo so I don't think it's weird that he'd massacre them for the current state of jujutsu society, especially if most are #TeamKenjaku.
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May 22, 2023 01:44
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well, there goes the status quo
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May 22, 2023 01:58
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MonsterEnvy posted:I think you misunderstood, Gakuganji is basically asking why no one is holding Yaga’s death against him. No one is cursing him for it. (The mundane curse not the jujutsu curse) I think it’s basically how it’s worded in the Viz translation that confused you. Then how does Gojo's response "No reason other than I know you through the principal" make sense? That would mean Gojo made sure to assuage everyone else's concerns by saying that he knows Gakuganji from Yaga so he can be trusted(?) If anything, it would be Panda to vindicate Gakuganji since Panda witness the murder and is the son of the deceased.
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May 22, 2023 02:29
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Flair posted:But the context involves https://manga4life.com/read-online/Jujutsu-Kaisen-chapter-223-page-5.html Gakuganji asking why he was not cursed, and Gojo answers that he did not curse someone he knows from Yaga. I assume that Gojo placed the curse on all the higherups that triggered upon him learning about the current status quo.
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May 22, 2023 03:09
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Flair posted:Then how does Gojo's response "No reason other than I know you through the principal" make sense? That would mean Gojo made sure to assuage everyone else's concerns by saying that he knows Gakuganji from Yaga so he can be trusted(?) Panda already did that back when Yaga died. Gojo is saying there is no reason for the lack of hate other than Gojo knowing what kind of man Gakuganji is, also Gojo himself feels responsible for being sealed.
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May 22, 2023 03:46
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The narrative work on this entire arc has been subpar compared to the previous ones so i think close reading these chapters is less valuable overall. Just IMO i think it makes sense for gojo to be the killer but its whatever
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May 22, 2023 04:46
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It just doesn't seem in character for Gojo, the strongest modern sorcerer, who has explicitly expressed intent to eliminate the powers that be in the past, to send two teenagers to do his work for him. Especially if the work was to brutally murder a gang of olds and then leave their mangled corpses as a message. But that corridor with candles that Yuta and Salmonroe are walking through in chapter 222 looks identical to the higher-ups HQ so shrug Chapter 222  Chapter 137  
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May 22, 2023 06:27
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It does not really seem in character for those two to just suddenly murder a bunch of people.
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May 22, 2023 06:50
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i hadn’t noticed that hallway but the only thing that makes sense to me is gojo massacred those old dumbasses just like he wanted to for years. though at the same time i can’t think of another reason for okkotsu and inumaki to be there. i can’t wait for next week
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May 22, 2023 13:06
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The fact that they were killed in the same place doesn't really indicate to me that Inumaki and Yuta killed them, which also makes very little sense narratively. It's just a visual cue showing us that yes, those are the geezers back at HQ with their faces caved in.
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May 22, 2023 13:58
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yeah i certainly don’t think gojo had two kids murder those people when he’s been looking for an excuse to murder them himself for some time
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May 22, 2023 15:55
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JJK is making me sad. The first two major arcs are incredible. Arc 1 sets the stage perfectly imo for Shibuya, which was extremely focused and Gege was on fire. Clearly enjoyed what he was up to and it really showed. Then the culling games happened and everyone was like "well- he's probably building up to something, let him cook, trust in Gege" but culling games was pretty lackluster in retrospect, not bad but not amazing by any stretch. Serviceable is the word I would use. Now it just feels like the primary goal is to close out the series, the panel quality is down, the story went from focused to super broad in a way that does not feel good, and I get the feeling that if Gege could end this poo poo next week he would. I think the community would totally understand if he wanted to take a hiatus. God knows the work is overwhelming in manga production. Or maybe he should pass the manga off to someone on his team. idk what the answer is but this ain't feelin right imo. Still totally worth reading, but drat. There's still time to come up for air and go "listen this isn't what we're trying to do, we're taking 3 months to figure out poo poo out" like that would be completely ok. But we're getting pretty close to where that will no longer help... Taima fucked around with this message at 17:27 on May 22, 2023 |
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May 22, 2023 17:24
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MonsterEnvy posted:It does not really seem in character for those two to just suddenly murder a bunch of people. Comedy option: The Olds got it in their heads that Yuta had full control over Rika and did something that antagonized the poo poo out of him, and she just painted the room with them.
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May 22, 2023 17:47
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There have been some cool things in the manga post-Nobara, but really it seems like she was lynchpin and without her it just isn't as good.
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May 22, 2023 18:54
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Gearhead posted:Comedy option: The Olds got it in their heads that Yuta had full control over Rika and did something that antagonized the poo poo out of him, and she just painted the room with them. Comedy option: it was Takaba
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May 22, 2023 19:53
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Electric Phantasm posted:Comedy option: it was Takaba they just slipped on a lot of banana peels very hard
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May 22, 2023 20:01
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I dunno about Nobara being a lynchpin all on her own but the Shibuya Incident is just a really top-tier blowout arc. Good fights, good drama, lots of characters doing stuff but it's all relatively easy to follow. It has a lot of moving parts and Gege kept it all together really well. But it was also basically the end of like 80% of the cast being relevant to the goings on. Yuji, Megumi, and Maki are the only students who really move forward at all with a cameo fight essentially from Panda and the blood user. The whole "Okay all these people you were interested in? We're done with most of them. Like all these new guys" thing never works super well.
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May 22, 2023 20:06
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The Culling Game is just too convoluted without purpose. Like you *can* do weird super complex plotlines revolving mostly around new characters but you need to be like HxH where everything is very focused. Culling Game wasn't that. And it kind of wrecked the momentum of the series and failed to really introduce new characters in any meaningful way. I think people would have an easier time moving forward if any of the new characters really felt like characters or anyone was allowed to do anything. Maybe it can recover its footing but I think the big problem at the moment is that with Megumi and Nobara both gone we're stuck with a bunch of forgettable side characters who haven't really distinguished themselves.
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May 22, 2023 22:40
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I completely disagree I don’t even understand how it’s convoluted, the premise is a death game was made to fuel the purpose of exposing the whole of humanity to cursed energy and recreate the Heian era of sorcery. The protagonists goals are simple - Get Megumis sister out alive (failed) -introduce rules that extend the game and avoid less killing , preventing the overall goal from happening as long as possible (achieved) - free Gojo (achieved) -get as many allies as possible to face Kenjaku down and remove him off the board The pacing is also fine to me? I’ve done a re-read of the series and the pacing has always been like this from the get-go. It jumps around fast with lots of fights with side characters who don’t do too much overall (Mechamaru who the author loves got dismantled without ever really accomplishing anything for example). I really like the Culling games, it feels chaotic and dangerous, the characters are crazy old school sorcerers should be and some of the emotional beats really hit hard. The action has also been really awesome across the board I don’t think Nobara was a lynchpin in the dynamic, she was just a cool character among many others. She will also likely come back at some point because her soul related powers are awfully relevant in an arc about body swapping.
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May 23, 2023 00:39
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Taima posted:JJK is making me sad. One piece is basically the only shonen battle series in recent memory that didn't spin wildly out of control, then crash and burn to some degree. It's just kind of a genre wide issue where their big climactic final arcs usually suck rear end, and all the little problems that have been bubbling under the surface just kind of take precedence and become impossible to ignore. Naruto had its awful zombie war poo poo, Bleach had its stupid nazi god power war poo poo, hero academia has its invincible villain war poo poo, even Dragon Ball Z had the Buu saga where basically every character just kind of shrugs off all of their character progression to act like assholes and do nothing of importance for most of the arc.
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May 23, 2023 00:44
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Kinda wondering if Kenjaku kept his original body around somewhere as part of his technique. Something this powerful and long lasting has to have a very strict condition. We know basically nothing about how it truly works. Does he have something or someone on the side that plops his brain into the new body? Even Mahito couldn't control the corpses of his victims, so does Kenjaku have to use his little brain arms to drag himself across the ground to his next body?
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May 23, 2023 01:30
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Schubalts posted:Kinda wondering if Kenjaku kept his original body around somewhere as part of his technique. Something this powerful and long lasting has to have a very strict condition. I kinda assume when wanting to switch Kenjaku performs a ritual surgery. they open the target cranium and then yeah hops out of one head to the other I guess the brain mass could be a cursed object
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May 23, 2023 01:48
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ImpAtom posted:The Culling Game is just too convoluted without purpose. Yeah, I feel like it has a lot of set-up that is temporarily engaged with (and what engagement there is is good), but then it just abruptly moves past it in a way that leaves the whole thing feeling awkward and disproportionate to the set-up involved. It's like if the Greed Island arc in HxH just lasted up until they started training with Biscuit, and then suddenly ended (though even that isn't the best comparison, because individual fights last so much longer in HxH).
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May 23, 2023 01:52
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When is sukuna gonna waste Gojo.
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May 23, 2023 02:15
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If I had to give a complaint about the Culling game is that it gave us solid fights and at the time they all were in service of the goal of gaining points. But once we realize that gaining points didn't ultimately help anyone end the culling game and now it's straight into what appears to be a final boss fight it makes me question what the point was. None of the surviving and allied fighters are going to be able to do anything against Sukuna should it come to that because he has everyone beat in every category. So even if the unexpected outcome of all the fights was assembling a good team they really only should be fighting Kenjaku. I also haven't been able to shake the feeling since Hakari's fight had him run through every single caveat and function of his domain, that character like him and Higaruma got such a showcase because Gege will have them get stomped to further reinforce both Kenjaku or Sukuna's barrier/domain proficiency. Which isn't to say the previous fights are pointless nor was nothing gained for the cast or the reader. And with Sukuna possessing Megumi it makes me wonder if he'll realize the big skeleton that might be lurking in the 10 shadows domain expansion. There's potential here that wouldn't exist without all the previous stuff. But it doesn't feel as important as things felt leading up too and during Shibuya where there was a clear buildup and time. Nuebot posted:One piece is basically the only shonen battle series in recent memory that didn't spin wildly out of control, then crash and burn to some degree. Kengan Asura is the most recent battle shonen I can think of that not only was of consistent quality, but had an ending that stuck its landing. There were some hiccups along the way but for a story that is primarly a tournament arc it delivered on largely good fights, characters, drama, and resolutions. Which is why the current quality of the sequel series annoys me. Toriko had a fantastic ending despite cutting out at least 3 mini-arcs and being a series largely defined by a constant escalation of power. But even in the end when people are casually launching planet busting attacks and devouring plot armor it didn't feel out of place because the writer embraced power levels way early on. I even got misty eyed in the final chapters as one character managed to find peace after a hard life and a lot of mistakes on his part.
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May 23, 2023 03:11
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It makes sense that the Culling Game feels like it's a mess in the plot, it IS a mess in the plot. Kenjaku set it up to gently caress with people, complicate things and try to do something awful to the world. Finding ways to gently caress around with the rules makes sense. Trying to find ways of shutting it down makes sense. The problem is, of course, that Kenjaku has set up several situations now that are fail states for the heroes should he be sufficiently foiled.
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May 23, 2023 03:59
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"it's chaotic for the characters so it's ok to be chaotic for the readers" makes more sense for filming something in a slightly disorienting fashion but less so for just having sloppy narrative. The ideal is something that is well crafted and well presented where the reader clearly understands how the characters feel and react. Theres been a definite weird quality fluctation during this arc and especially its abrupt conclusion into this specific battle just feels weird. I also disagree with the statement that Nobara was just "some other character", she was clearly one of the main characters with megumi and itadori. The entire focus was on them. Lesser characters with much less screen time got better send offs than she did. Its loving bizarre and the longer this manga rushes into its conclusion the less sense it makes.
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May 23, 2023 04:27
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Jerkface posted:"it's chaotic for the characters so it's ok to be chaotic for the readers" makes more sense for filming something in a slightly disorienting fashion but less so for just having sloppy narrative. The ideal is something that is well crafted and well presented where the reader clearly understands how the characters feel and react. Theres been a definite weird quality fluctation during this arc and especially its abrupt conclusion into this specific battle just feels weird. Gege took like.. a year and a half to tell 2 weeks of story, then did a 3 week timeskip the moment Gojo was loose. The pacing IS a goddamn mess. I kinda feel like the intent was to tell a fake tournament arc, but he took too long to tell that part of the story. And now he's rushing to make up time he lost elsewhere.
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May 23, 2023 05:35
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Gearhead posted:Gege took like.. a year and a half to tell 2 weeks of story, then did a 3 week timeskip the moment Gojo was loose. The pacing IS a goddamn mess. Uhhh that’s not indicative of pacing issues. If we’re gonna go down that route, might as well call One Piece badly paced because events that take course over a few days take years to before they finish. It even does the exact same thing where you get random time jumps of weeks/days after the arc ends.
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May 23, 2023 06:56
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Nuebot posted:One piece is basically the only shonen battle series in recent memory that didn't spin wildly out of control, then crash and burn to some degree. It's just kind of a genre wide issue where their big climactic final arcs usually suck rear end, and all the little problems that have been bubbling under the surface just kind of take precedence and become impossible to ignore. Naruto had its awful zombie war poo poo, Bleach had its stupid nazi god power war poo poo, hero academia has its invincible villain war poo poo, even Dragon Ball Z had the Buu saga where basically every character just kind of shrugs off all of their character progression to act like assholes and do nothing of importance for most of the arc. Do we count Chainsaw Man part 1 as a battle shonen? Because that was at least as much a conclusion as Kengan had, and it was rock solid. Final battle was done in one volume, too. No messing about.
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May 23, 2023 07:29
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Something that JJK had in spades initially, was this loving awesome vibe. Am I crazy here? The vibe was this super interesting mix of urban and archaic and it really worked imo. As seen in the many banger OP end ED for the anime: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6riDJMI-Y8U Blowing up that vibe for Shibuya made perfect sense; it's a horror arc, after a breezy low-ish stakes urban setup arc. Great, I'm on board. Go to dark places, king! The contrast and whiplash was imo expertly done. But, it would have been fantastic to go back to what the show was doing before Shibuya, afterwards. There was just so much more meat on the bone there. He set up this incredible world and then burned it to the loving ground. To me the main benefits of JJK revolved around its characters, its breezy but sometimes serious vibe, urban aesthetic, combining the new with the old in a way that felt fresh and fun and a really interesting/elaborate power system. But in retrospect Gege basically destroyed the best premises of his own manga (during and after Shibuya) by literally killing or incapacitating most of the best characters that could have fueled the show for seasons to come. He even severely handicapped Itadori at a moment where he needed to be the fuel for the series because so many other key characters were gone, and then just let him hang in the wind for like... a loving year. JJK ultimately threw everything that (imo) made it loving awesome straight on the cutting room floor. It's such a weird decision. I want them to go anime only and redo everything starting with not killing Nobara or Todo. Nanami... I would prefer if he lived but it makes sense in his arc for him to die, so whatever. Then just start the series from there post-Shibuya, and go back to what made JJK so fire  In retrospect it's loving insane the way Gege just burned down the roots of what could have been one of the best shonens ever. There's a million shonen conceits that would have allowed Gojo to stick around. Take away his powers, or massively reduce them temporarily. What if the Prison Realm just, for example, sealed away the Six Eyes? The Six Eyes are the whole thing that makes him so overpowered, taking those away makes him powerful but mortal. Gojo could then fulfill the role of mentor that he always wanted without breaking the story. Or, make it so that he's powerful but needs time and circumstance to use them. I am reminded of the laser gun in Tengoku-Daimakyo; a powerful narrative conceit that can only be used sometimes. Works fine in the story. You don't have to give up and shelve the most popular character on the show for like 2 years bro. And for the record there's also a bunch of narrative reasons why Gojo losing the Six Eyes and finally taking off his eye wrapping and stepping completely into the mentor role would be completely in-keeping with, and an expansion of, his entire character arc, but that's a whole other can of worms. Or, poo poo, make a central narrative the idea that Gojo can't interfere because if he does, the people under him will fail to evolve enough to win longer term. He would have to put his full faith into his students, which is on point with his central themes (I vs us), while keeping him around as a crowd pleaser who can also fulfill the narrative of Story Dad. Keep Nobara, why are you loving killing Nobara? Why are you retiring Todo? I feel like this is going to go down as one of the biggest disappointments in anime/manga  We traded in Nobara for a dude with a loving propeller on his head. This dynamic where most of the main characters either died or receded after Shibuya is one of the most baffling single decisions I've ever seen... As someone astutely pointed out, shonens have a hard time sticking the landing, agreed, but the level of self-own that has occurred in JJK is on a whole other level. Taima fucked around with this message at 10:26 on May 23, 2023 |
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May 23, 2023 09:42
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I think some of you have been reading a different manga cuz to me JJK has maintained a super high quality from start to finish. Aside from the Yuki Tsukumo fight, that was some bullshit
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May 23, 2023 12:59
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Honestly, even though I agree that JJK is having a hard time fully sticking its landing with this back third or so of the manga, I disagree with a lot of your points. Ignoring where you're just saying "why did you kill this character I liked," I agree that Gojo's imprisonment, which was basically the motor of the story the whole time considering Kenjaku's plans, had a pretty lukewarm payout, and Gege's treatment of the women in JJK has turned out pretty dire with the trifecta of Nobara, Tsukumo and Tsumiki. That said, JJK has always felt like a "response" to the previous generation of shonen battle manga to me in the way its internal logic works and a lot of the story beats it hits. People may or may not agree with me here but I see a lot of parallels with Naruto in particular in the first half. Did it seem like it was setting up in the beginning to be another sprawling shonen epic for its secondary characters to grow into? Maybe, although Gege might have never intended to go in that direction to begin with. Ultimately we will never know, because one of the interesting things about manga as a medium is its serial nature. Gege has been working on this for over five years. His plans might have changed a hundred times. He might be experiencing severe burnout. The stuff you're complaining about isn't unique to JJK at all. It's the rule in these manga for secondary characters that seem important to eventually fade into the background. A lot of the "shonen conceits" you mentioned feel like they buck against keeping the secondary cast relevant - the need to constantly up the odds, buff the protagonists, etc. If anything, I think Gege has resolved most of the issues with those conceits extremely well. He was never going to be able to give you that infinite exposition on the cool secondaries, so cutting down the cast as the story goes simply by throwing out another conceit like plot armor was a great decision imo. It would have been lame for him to set up Gojo and then undermine the idea that he's this unstoppable god among sorcerers by introducing an unknown antag with mystery powers that mercs him, but at some point he had to resolve his presence in the manga. Instead the antag's plans revolved entirely around a long con to maybe probably incapacitate him in the polar opposite of a fair fight. I agree that when you zoom in on those decisions, the execution hasn't always been great. Imprisoning Gojo as the focus of the story and then resolving it by introducing a random character like Angel with the ability to free him was lazy. some of the aforementioned choices on which characters to consistently shitcan have been bad. The plot got kinda convoluted and it seems like it's going to be hard for the Culling Games to have a good payoff, and Gege seems like he's sick of coming up with this poo poo and just wants to give us an insane fight to lead up to the ending. That said, I still think it's going to end its run as a solid shonen with some real issues, but overall a nice step forward for the genre in a lot of ways. hopefully next time an editor mentions to Gege that hey, maybe screwing over every woman he writes isn't great. This back half of JJK has felt a lot more like HxH to me, or really even maybe more like Yu Yu Hakusho in terms of the vibes and aesthetic. Maybe the Togashi crash and burn is just part of the bit! Tosk fucked around with this message at 13:45 on May 23, 2023 |
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May 23, 2023 13:43
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