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Fell Fire posted:Was there any particular reason why Britain and France didn't declare war on the USSR when they invaded Poland? Did they think it would be too much of a fight? Britain and France spent the winter of 1939-40 planning out an aerial bombing campaign against Russian oilfields in the Caucasus but the Fall of France put a stop to that before it could start. EDIT: Operation Pike is what it was called. Notwithstanding the reason the bombings were called off, it was probably for the best they didn't happen since it made Britain and the USSR allying together much, much easier when Barbarossa happened. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Jun 7, 2023 |
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Jun 7, 2023 04:02
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Fell Fire posted:Was there any particular reason why Britain and France didn't declare war on the USSR when they invaded Poland? Did they think it would be too much of a fight? The "Agreement of Mutual Assistance" had a clause specifying that only a German attack on Poland would oblige immediate military assistance. That's the momentary reason, but the reason why that clause was in there was because the Brits generally didn't want to be at war with the Soviet Union, the only other country that could reasonably invade Poland.
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Jun 7, 2023 06:47
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It's generally better to go to war if you have some basic plan for winning it. Germany was easy to blockade, there was a land frontier and most German cities were within bomber range. None of this applied to Soviet Union, and both allies had fresh memory of how an intervention in Russia would go. Soviets would probably have had better means to sabotage them through local communists. Instead there was a hope of containing Soviet and German expansion by intervening in Finland, but this never came to be and then Norway was lost.
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Jun 7, 2023 07:12
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I would guess that British support for Poland was also slightly undermined by the Soviets advancing to more or less exactly where British diplomats had suggested the eastern Polish border should lie. But I am completely guessing.
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Jun 7, 2023 15:14
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Nenonen posted:Instead there was a hope of containing Soviet and German expansion by intervening in Finland, but this never came to be and then Norway was lost. "Hope" in this case meaning Churchill declaring in a cabinet meeting that Finland was militarily a lost cause in early 1940, but if they could lie to the bog-goblins convincingly enough, they could perhaps keep the Finland from officially surrendering / making peace and switch to guerrilla warfare to bog the Soviets down in a quagmire, and gain pretext for invading Norway and Sweden. Funnily enough, the increased diplomatic communication and insincere offers of military aid from the Allies spooked Stalin enough to settle for a negotiated peace instead of continuing the war.
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Jun 7, 2023 16:42
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bees everywhere posted:For a few years I was the guy stuck with writing the operations orders and so I came to learn a lot about the military decision-making process. In my experience, there is a lot of careful attention paid to being extremely clear and concise. Certain words have a very strict doctrinal definition (especially any kind of "task") so those words are chosen carefully. The best-written plans are those that issue a clear task & purpose to all while giving subordinate units enough time and autonomy to make their own effective plans and conduct rehearsals at different levels. that sounds like technical writing stuff with super high consequences i never thought about that but i bet thats nerve wracking in combat situations to get across what's going on concisely without like "ope the mg nest is on MY left sorry u got shot dudes"
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Jun 8, 2023 02:28
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FirstnameLastname posted:that sounds like technical writing stuff with super high consequences This is why orders are usually left vague enough that if things go well you can take credit and if they go poorly you can shift the blame.
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Jun 8, 2023 03:38
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FirstnameLastname posted:that sounds like technical writing stuff with super high consequences At the tactical level there is a high level of structure and standardisation in orders, so that the person giving them doesn't miss things out or otherwise gently caress it up, and the audience knows what's coming up. This is an old version of the UK Tactical Aide Memoire which starts with the Combat Estimate and then the orders process. https://zulu-alpha.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/tampt2.1.pdf
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Jun 8, 2023 04:17
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poisonpill posted:how much fun were soldiers having while they marched into volleys of musket fire, tho? Thats the important question here I have a book about Napoleon's invasion of Russia, covering the part where the armies are called up, Napoleon discovers that half the depots he ordered built hadn't been builtp, and up to the point where Napoleon stumbles out of Russia, barely alive. It includes eyewitness reports, which give an answer I can summarize as: Not much. Also not high on the average soldier's fun O' meter: Standing around in artillery fire for hours, because your command hosed up.
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Jun 8, 2023 11:29
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Would you consider having to manually clear out your constipated horse by hand fun too? Because the 1812 invasion cavarlyman also had to do this when they ran out of fodder for the horses and some guy was like 'lets just use the old thatch on the rooves of these cottages and huts!' And the worse scenario, somehow keeping your horse alive long enough to be casually bled out by infantry on the death march back home?
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Jun 8, 2023 13:04
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The best fun was reserved for the march back, when Napoleon's armies had to walk straight through all that blasted hellscape the mix of multiple armies foraging and Russian burned earth tactics had created. Though sources are unclear about who had the most fun, the starving civilians or the starving soldiers
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Jun 8, 2023 13:10
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Libluini posted:The best fun was reserved for the march back, when Napoleon's armies had to walk straight through all that blasted hellscape the mix of multiple armies foraging and Russian burned earth tactics had created. 'Well bonjour the consequences of my actions!...alright this sucks, get the sled.'
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Jun 8, 2023 13:11
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Libluini posted:The best fun was reserved for the march back, when Napoleon's armies had to walk straight through all that blasted hellscape the mix of multiple armies foraging and Russian burned earth tactics had created. Napoleon foraging: haha gently caress yeah!!! Oui!! Napoleon retreating: Well this suck, qu'est ce qué gently caress?
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Jun 8, 2023 14:34
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Biggest concern for both armies on the morning of Waterloo who weren't lucky to get a billet with a roof; getting everything dry. Spending a night before a battle like that soaked to the skin after force marching doesn't sound too fun either.
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Jun 8, 2023 14:37
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Libluini posted:The best fun was reserved for the march back, when Napoleon's armies had to walk straight through all that blasted hellscape the mix of multiple armies foraging and Russian burned earth tactics had created. Losing is fun!
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Jun 8, 2023 14:47
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Must've been fun for the Han dynasty soldiers when in their first campaign against the Xiongnu, 20-30% of them suffered from frostbite.
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Jun 8, 2023 14:55
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Libluini posted:The best fun was reserved for the march back, when Napoleon's armies had to walk straight through all that blasted hellscape the mix of multiple armies foraging and Russian burned earth tactics had created. Napoleon actually lost more men getting to Moscow than the retreat there was a massive Typhus outbreak during the summer. Lots and lots of men either died of disease or just deserted once the going got tough
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Jun 8, 2023 15:22
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FirstnameLastname posted:that sounds like technical writing stuff with super high consequences Small unit leaders directly in combat (like a squad leader going after a machinegun) aren't going to use the formal 5-paragraph order format. They're just going to yell orders. Everyone knows the 5-paragraph order format; it's taught in boot camp and you get regular training on it, so you're expected to understand it. But not every order uses it because it isn't practical, especially for smaller units.
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Jun 8, 2023 15:49
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Typo posted:Napoleon actually lost more men getting to Moscow than the retreat 
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Jun 8, 2023 15:50
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The King of Infographics What's the split in the black line
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Jun 8, 2023 15:53
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Loezi posted:Napoleon foraging: haha gently caress yeah!!! Oui!! what about a seal
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Jun 8, 2023 15:59
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zoux posted:The King of Infographics There was a detachment broken off the army at Wilna that went and did some poo poo and then rejoined the main army later on after they'd already turned around at the retreat. If you look there's another detachment that also split off way earlier and rejoined even later (the near vertical beige/black lines on the far left). This is also why the retreating army gets larger at that point.
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Jun 8, 2023 17:06
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Typo posted:Napoleon actually lost more men getting to Moscow than the retreat In total numbers, sure, but as a percentage of the force the losses were worse on the retreat. They lost a bit more than 3/4ths on the way to Moscow, and then on the retreat that remainder was cut down by about 95%.
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Jun 8, 2023 17:09
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Think I mentioned it before but I recently read the murder mystery fiction book Officer’s Prey about a captain tasked to find a serial killer in the GA’s ranks during the Russia invasion and retreat. The mystery itself was pretty uninteresting but the author built up a lot of suspense and anxiety as you know the retreat is inevitable. Good battle scenes as well.
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Jun 8, 2023 17:10
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Cessna posted:Small unit leaders directly in combat (like a squad leader going after a machinegun) aren't going to use the formal 5-paragraph order format. They're just going to yell orders. But won’t he use a standardised frago trained through battle drill? I remember we had one in the danish army, in a standard format. Mål Indbrudsted Formation Støtte/sikring Reorganisering Klarmelding Loosely translated as target, entry point, formation, fire support/suppression, reorganisation, ready signal.
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Jun 8, 2023 17:39
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sullat posted:Losing is fun! It's a bad strategy, plus it's gruesome. Winning is what I do, stick to that.
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Jun 8, 2023 17:49
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With the way the Brady coverage of the ACW made it look as though collection of the dead and wounded was a 'maybe a few days' process, I can't imagine any kind of overnight defensive position would be all that 'fun'
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Jun 8, 2023 19:45
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It's certainly not fun being so horribly wounded on a battlefield any local who's decided to make a quick buck via plunder can easily finish you off with a knife and knock out any gold teeth you have in the process.
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Jun 8, 2023 19:57
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maybe theyre talking about being the looter
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Jun 8, 2023 19:58
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SeanBeansShako posted:It's certainly not fun being so horribly wounded on a battlefield any local who's decided to make a quick buck via plunder can easily finish you off with a knife and knock out any gold teeth you have in the process. The one that gets me is the ACW battle that started a bunch of forest fires (I want to say either 2nd bull run or one of the ones surrounding that?) where the wounded in the underbrush basically burned to death. Lots of accounts of people finishing themselves off with a musket before the flames got to them, accounts of finding charred corpses hugging trees or with their hands held out in the direction the flames were coming from etc.
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Jun 8, 2023 20:02
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Yeah that happened at Waterloo in multiple parts of the battlefield. The wounded got it worse in Hougoumont.
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Jun 8, 2023 20:06
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SeanBeansShako posted:It's certainly not fun being so horribly wounded on a battlefield any local who's decided to make a quick buck via plunder can easily finish you off with a knife and knock out any gold teeth you have in the process. even suffering a light wound could be a death sentence At Waterloo for instance the British just left many of the French wounded on the battlefield for several days where lightly wounded men died of dehydration or exposure
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Jun 8, 2023 20:23
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Cyrano4747 posted:The one that gets me is the ACW battle that started a bunch of forest fires (I want to say either 2nd bull run or one of the ones surrounding that?) where the wounded in the underbrush basically burned to death. Lots of accounts of people finishing themselves off with a musket before the flames got to them, accounts of finding charred corpses hugging trees or with their hands held out in the direction the flames were coming from etc. Battle of the Wilderness. Lt. Col. Horace Porter, Grant's staff[ posted:"Forest fires raged; ammunition trains exploded; the dead were roasted in the conflagration; the wounded, roused by its hot breath, dragged themselves along, with their torn and mangled limbs, in the mad energy of despair, to escape the ravages of the flames; and every bush seemed hung with shreds of blood-stained clothing...."
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Jun 8, 2023 20:25
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vuk83 posted:But won’t he use a standardised frago trained through battle drill? Sure, we used something similar in armor. ("Gunner, sabot, T-72 in the open," etc.) That's a fire command, not a 5-paragraph order.
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Jun 8, 2023 21:17
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Typo posted:At Waterloo for instance the British just left many of the French wounded on the battlefield for several days where lightly wounded men died of dehydration or exposure We're going to need some context here. So after Waterloo, like 48 hours after things were very much still in the air with what the hell was going on with Napoleon and the core of his Guard forces that escaped fighting a brutal rear guard action with the Prussians, and the battle itself pretty much stretched the Anglo-Dutch-German forces to the point where the pursuit was mainly handed over to the Prussians. What was left of the Armee Du Nord was very eager to book it back to France so a lot of their walking wounded found themselves at the mercy of the general population of Belgium in a series of villages leading back to the border. Now we've got perhaps the most crowded charnal house in waiting in Europe and the closest place to remotely handle the wounded in general is Brussels, which already has it's hands full with the wounded and dying armies of several German states, the Netherlands and the Prussians. Outside Belgium people have no clue who won or if Napoleon was even alive. The wounded French got the short end of the stick, but not by being left alone by the victors on the Battlefield. Due to the overflow of the hospitals in Brussels the wounded French that were brought from Waterloo had to make do with being given space at the outskirts of the city. So essentially they were bunked up in less than ideal conditions.
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Jun 8, 2023 21:41
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vuk83 posted:But won’t he use a standardised frago trained through battle drill? Yeah this is "quick battle orders" rather than the full deliberate process.
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Jun 8, 2023 22:33
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glynnenstein posted:Battle of the Wilderness. SeanBeansShako posted:It's certainly not fun being so horribly wounded on a battlefield any local who's decided to make a quick buck via plunder can easily finish you off with a knife and knock out any gold teeth you have in the process. Happened in many civil war battles, one of the many hazards of wounded men. Others include those incapacitated and then having the battle continue around them in subsequent days. Most combat troops tended to do whatever they could to help the wounded even if they wore the other uniform though. A book on Chickamauga included an account where a Federal soldier got wounded on the first day and lay in no man land. When the Confederates formed up for another attack, the troops took great care to move around and avoid trampling him even though they were under fire themselves. Another account of a wounded man being moved away from the dead and decomposing bodies to set him and other wounded men beside a camp fire. They even took time to clear the area of dry leaves so the aforementioned burning of disabled men wouldn't occur and gave him a spare blanket. Naturally after a major battle, the victors who controlled the field would naturally prioritized their own dead and wounded first but there was generally no looting or murder going on after the fact. A point was often made by officers to give out orders to treat all wounded the same regardless of which side they fought for. That said, the tremendously overworked medical staff often meant that if you wore the wrong colour, you wouldn't be looked at immediately but then again, even if you wore the right colour, the system of sorting out the wounded meant you waited for days even after you were initially moved off the field before someone looked at you. Typically, walking wounded and those who were suspected to have mortal wounds were looked at last. Doctors would prioritize those who needed to have limbs amputated and it would be natural to ensure your own guys got looked at first. FAUXTON posted:With the way the Brady coverage of the ACW made it look as though collection of the dead and wounded was a 'maybe a few days' process.... Depending on the size of the battle, it would take at least a week for the preliminary burials to be done. Because the winning army often had to be on the move relatively quickly the vast majority were only buried in shallow trenches maybe a couple of feet deep. Subsequently, rain and animals might dig up some of the shallowest trenches or pits so once the immediate aftermath was over, efforts at some sites were made to reconsolidate the dead to more permanent sites. There were occasions where men fell in battle and friends dug a hasty grave with some marking in the hopes of recovering your remains and reinterring you with more dignity at some point in time. Efforts continued after the war as well as with civil society groups traveling to dig up the trenches and try to bring soldiers back to home counties for reburial. The worst part from the accounts was apparently the hordes of dead horses that littered the field since they were taken care of last. Must have been a disgusting task to try and bury a week old decaying horse that had been sitting in the summer weather.
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Jun 8, 2023 23:47
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Figured the milhist thread would be a good place for this. The USS Alabama has had the original deck replaced and local artists have turned the salvaged boards into keepsakes and art pieces that go on sale next week. https://www.ussalabama.com/teak-deck-project/
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Jun 9, 2023 01:53
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TheKingslayer posted:Figured the milhist thread would be a good place for this. does anyone know anything about pens I could use a good one e: oh holy god the prices nevermind
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Jun 9, 2023 13:53
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Milo and POTUS posted:does anyone know anything about pens I could use a good one Buy a fisher space pen ($15) or a Zebra F-701 ($10)
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Jun 9, 2023 14:30
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