VostokProgram posted:I was thinking about that chart of Napoleon's army from earlier. I'm wondering, what were his other options besides walking to Moscow? Just not invading seems like the best one to me. But I guess he could have also gone to St Petersburg and maybe been resupplied by the french navy along the way? Would that have been viable? TLDR; Napoleon had to occupy Moscow and in his mind sacking and holding the city would force the Russians to come to the table and work with him once again instead of getting sulky over issues like trade and recognising Poland existed. It turns out the Tsar was willing to sacrifice Moscow and wait him out after all. Whoops. I am not certain the French Navy was strong enough to leave their home waters at that time, let alone attempt such an expedition into the baltic.
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Jun 20, 2023 20:11
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FWIW, the Russian campaign was ruinously awful for the Russians too. Especially if you include civilian losses. Scorched earth loving sucks when it's the fields you rely on to feed yourself being scorched.
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Jun 20, 2023 21:11
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During the retreat the Russian armies chasing the French suffered pretty badly as well, whilst they probably handled the weather better the supplies with food and fodder was painfully tricky unless they liked eating frozen dead guys.
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Jun 20, 2023 21:23
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VostokProgram posted:I was thinking about that chart of Napoleon's army from earlier. I'm wondering, what were his other options besides walking to Moscow? Just not invading seems like the best one to me. But I guess he could have also gone to St Petersburg and maybe been resupplied by the french navy along the way? Would that have been viable? He would probably have been fine if he stopped campaigning upon capturing Smolensk and picked it back up next Spring. He decided to press on the issue in hopes of resolving the war faster and it turned out to have been a bad gamble.
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Jun 20, 2023 22:23
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Fangz posted:FWIW, the Russian campaign was ruinously awful for the Russians too. Especially if you include civilian losses. Scorched earth loving sucks when it's the fields you rely on to feed yourself being scorched. Russia has had a long history of really painful wars in the western part of their territory. As I understand it, they're more or less impossible to secure against ground invasion, and this was the primary motivation for wanting a set of friendly "buffer states" between them and any potential future belligerents. If invasion was going to happen along that route, better it happen in someone else's territory (ideally including some chokepoints to slow the enemy down) instead of in Russia proper.
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Jun 20, 2023 22:33
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Russia has had a long history of really painful wars in the western part of their territory. As I understand it, they're more or less impossible to secure against ground invasion, and this was the primary motivation for wanting a set of friendly "buffer states" between them and any potential future belligerents. If invasion was going to happen along that route, better it happen in someone else's territory (ideally including some chokepoints to slow the enemy down) instead of in Russia proper. This is also more or less the reason for all Prussian foreign policy between ~30 Years War and WW1.
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Jun 20, 2023 22:58
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My wife and I were boat chatting, as is normal, as one does, and she got really onto me for the fact that the HMS St Lawrence wreck was literally in line of sight of my window when we first met but we never dived it She's right tbh Rest well, HMS St Lawrence, first and only first-rate ship of the line to be built, live, and die entirely in fresh water 
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Jun 20, 2023 23:53
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Cyrano4747 posted:Google "crossing the line" ceremonies in general. It's a big loving deal and is bizarrely anarchic. Apparently they could get no bullshit WILD in the pre-80s USN... ...dare I ask about the potatoes?
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Jun 20, 2023 23:56
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Phanatic posted:...dare I ask about the potatoes? I have zero idea. Drag competitions used to feature prominently, with a "beauty contest" judged by "neptune's court" (sailors dressed like King Neptune & Co.). I've heard of poo poo in the 20s-40s that involved crap like drinking shipboard lubricants until people puked, running a gauntlet of dudes with whips while naked, and all sorts of other poo poo that's basically just military-grade hazing. So this poo poo getting toned down a bit in the post-Vietnam era isn't really a bad thing. It's basically like frat initiation stuff in that some people would eventually take poo poo too far.
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Jun 21, 2023 00:35
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Russia has had a long history of really painful wars in the western part of their territory. As I understand it, they're more or less impossible to secure against ground invasion, The details have slipped past me a bit at this point but I remember Kenneth Chase going into this wrt the Near East straight through to Northern India in Firearms: A Global History and it being a bit of a shakeup to my historical worldview -- for the most part the open plains from Egypt through Mesopotamia and Northern India (and the actually inhabited parts of Iran? as I said the details escape me now) are practically indefensible against horse nomads, and as such were totally at the mercy of regimes established by Turkic nomads. I recall him listing the details and it being near literally every major power in the region for the better chunk of a millennium. I should find the passage again.
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Jun 21, 2023 01:15
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Cyrano4747 posted:I have zero idea. Drag competitions used to feature prominently, with a "beauty contest" judged by "neptune's court" (sailors dressed like King Neptune & Co.). I've heard of poo poo in the 20s-40s that involved crap like drinking shipboard lubricants until people puked, running a gauntlet of dudes with whips while naked, and all sorts of other poo poo that's basically just military-grade hazing. On one of the boats I was on, there was a tradition of "Sunday Funday" where the usual routine was broken up with an all-hands call to something usually different and hopefully entertaining to break up the monotony of being at sea. As it happened the winds had been consistently against us lately, so it was decided that all watches were to come up with ceremonies and rituals to beg the gods of the sea for a favorable wind. There were a number of things that went on - one guy who'd been growing a beard for 30 years shaved it off, another ritual involved collecting some hair from everyone and casting it into the sea (the captain, being bald, pulled his shirt open to reveal his chest hair for this), there was some faux Latin chanting at one point, but one particular highlight was a ritual in which a barrel that someone had pooped in was brought on deck (shore leave and alcohol was involved in that story), at which point they started filling it with all kinds of nasty poo poo - seawater from the fire hose, pine tar, scrapings from the bilge, old paint, etc, and when all was done and mixed and appropriate words were said all hands were handed a cup and told "And now you must drink this, no, this is not a joke, we're drinking from the poop barrel" and the officer in charge began ladling out from the barrel. It was just a magic trick, they had pitchers of orange juice hidden inside, but that might suggest something of the, uh, creativity involved when you get a lot of people in a very stressful but monotonous environment for months on end. Oh, and yes, the bosun was dressed as Neptune and was looking appropriately stern and displeased throughout all the festivities.
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Jun 21, 2023 01:51
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No wonder sailors has to be press ganged or shanghaied on the job.
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Jun 21, 2023 06:12
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Last stand of the tin can sailors had a chapter that described their crossing the line ceremony. The nice/cruel bit was that if any of the "active participants" got cold feet and wanted out, he was instantly granted an exemption from the hazing. Which was nice. Then a minute later, he realizes that he will now be the only "tadpole" on the ship and that he will by default be the only second class citizen around. He desperately begs to be allowed to resume the ritual hazing, but his pleading falls on deaf ears. Which is cruel.
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Jun 21, 2023 07:41
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Tevery Best posted:He would probably have been fine if he stopped campaigning upon capturing Smolensk and picked it back up next Spring. He decided to press on the issue in hopes of resolving the war faster and it turned out to have been a bad gamble. Yeah, I think Napoleon knew the political situation behind him was tense at best, and his belief was that by resolving the Russian campaign more quickly, it would let him get back more quickly to keep Prussia and Austria in line.
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Jun 21, 2023 14:36
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Cyrano4747 posted:So this poo poo getting toned down a bit in the post-Vietnam era isn't really a bad thing. It's basically like frat initiation stuff in that some people would eventually take poo poo too far. It was pretty rough in the late 80s. Guys were hospitalized, etc.
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Jun 21, 2023 15:21
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Going to London and Paris later this summer, are there any milhist destinations I shouldn't miss? Already got the Imperial War Museum on the docket, and I already did the Churchill war rooms, Tower of London and most of the obvious stuff last time I was in town (which was about 15 years ago, granted) Normandy would be my top choice but it seems like a little much for a day trip, alas
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Jun 21, 2023 15:56
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ninjahedgehog posted:Going to London and Paris later this summer, are there any milhist destinations I shouldn't miss? Already got the Imperial War Museum on the docket, and I already did the Churchill war rooms, Tower of London and most of the obvious stuff last time I was in town (which was about 15 years ago, granted) Les Invalides in Paris is basically the French version of the Imperial War Museum. It's really good, and you can join the rest of the non-French world in having a sensible chuckle at how they depict WW2. Not milhist but while you're in London go to the British Museum. It's loving incredible. Speed walk your way through the poo poo like the Rosetta Stone that the tour groups all stop at for way too long (I mean, look at it, but it's a loving rock with writing on it, it's cool to say you saw it though) and go dive into the Roman/Egyptian stuff. Last time I was there they had a huge display of the Vindolanda Tablets that was loving mind blowing, with almost no one in it.
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Jun 21, 2023 16:13
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Napoléon's tomb is also at Les Invalides. It's a work of art in its own right, and you can't be a milhist nerd without paying your respects. The Liberation/Leclerc/Moulin museum is a nice short visit focusing on the resistance and holocaust victims https://en.parisinfo.com/paris-museum-monument/71086/Musee-de-la-Liberation-de-Paris-Musee-du-general-Leclerc-Musee-Jean-Moulin
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Jun 21, 2023 16:31
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Cyrano4747 posted:Les Invalides in Paris is basically the French version of the Imperial War Museum. It's really good, and you can join the rest of the non-French world in having a sensible chuckle at how they depict WW2. Out of curiosity, how do they depict WW2 that makes it worthy of a sensible chuckle?
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Jun 21, 2023 16:43
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ninjahedgehog posted:Normandy would be my top choice but it seems like a little much for a day trip, alas It's not THAT far. You can drive from Paris to Normandy in a bit over three hours. (I do not necessarily recommend doing this; rental cars are relatively expensive, and driving in Normandy can be a bit hair-raising.) But it's perfectly possible to drive there in a morning, spend a day going to the beaches or, better yet if you're into Medieval stuff, Bayeaux, then drive back late at night or the next day. (I did this back in April. I spent four days in Normandy, but if you just want to hit a few highlights quickly you can. Let me know if I can help with more specifics.) Edit: And absolutely go to Les Invalides, it's one of the great military museums. Cessna fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Jun 21, 2023 |
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Jun 21, 2023 16:48
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fartknocker posted:Out of curiosity, how do they depict WW2 that makes it worthy of a sensible chuckle? "Remember how everyone was in the Resistance and DeGaulle saved all of civilization? Ah, those were the days." (wistful accordion music plays in the background) Edit: I really shouldn't mock this too strenuously. If anything, I was favorably impressed with Les Invalides; they were clearly trying to show "yes, this happened" as opposed to "what we want to tell ourselves," especially in the displays on some of the unhappier aspects of French military history, like their war in Indochina. It certainly as not bias-free, but it wasn't all as "yay, patriotism" as most similar US museums. Cessna fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Jun 21, 2023 |
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Jun 21, 2023 16:50
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Is there a French term for "quisling"? I won't take "le quisling" as answer 
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Jun 21, 2023 17:01
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Nenonen posted:Is there a French term for "quisling"? I won't take "le quisling" as answer Collaborationniste. That is, someone who accepted Nazi ideology, as opposed to a collaborateur who was forced to cooperate under threat.
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Jun 21, 2023 17:07
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If I remember correctly, their "world wars" exhibition covers 1870-1945.
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Jun 21, 2023 17:20
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I think vichyste is closer in spirit to Quisling, but both work
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Jun 21, 2023 17:23
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mon dieu, le double-poste
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Jun 21, 2023 17:23
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I think vichyste is closer in spirit to Quisling, but both work Merci 
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Jun 21, 2023 17:27
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Cessna posted:It's not THAT far. You can drive from Paris to Normandy in a bit over three hours. (I do not necessarily recommend doing this; rental cars are relatively expensive, and driving in Normandy can be a bit hair-raising.) I've been planning a vacation in France, and I've discovered that their passenger rail kicks rear end. Paris to Calais is three hours, is less than $20, and there's food. Then rent a car for a few hours when you get to Normandy. I have not dug into car rentals yet.
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Jun 21, 2023 18:02
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Paris to Caen takes about two hours, and from there to Bayeaux takes less than half an hour. I don't know how often the trains run, though, you might want to look into that. I don't know how accessible Mont Saint Michel is by train, but that's absolutely worth the trip if you have time. (Edit: Google says Caen to Mt St Michel takes about 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 hours depending on if you change trains.) I love France. I work from home and am seriously considering relocating once the kids are in college. Cessna fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Jun 21, 2023 |
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Jun 21, 2023 18:17
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Cessna posted:"Remember how everyone was in the Resistance and DeGaulle saved all of civilization? Ah, those were the days." (wistful accordion music plays in the background) Just to expand, with the note that Cessna's edit is on point AND that it's been like 10 years since I've been there (but with the additional caveat that the exhibit I'm about to talk about hadn't changed at all in the 10 years since my previous visit): There's a section on the liberation of France that is basically all about how the Resistance rose up and drove the perfidious Boche from the homeland (oh and a few Americans and Brits were there too I guess) that is right next to a giant exhibit about all the material damage that the awful USAAF did that specifically tallies up the cost of replacing all the bridges that were blown up. It's strongly implied that this was needless and a travesty. Which, like. . . ok, that's true. But. . . . there's kind of a reason all those bridges got blown up, and it kind of has something to do with the lack of Germans in (most of) the country as of the Winter of 44/45.
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Jun 21, 2023 19:41
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Cyrano4747 posted:There's a section on the liberation of France that is basically all about how the Resistance rose up and drove the perfidious Boche from the homeland (oh and a few Americans and Brits were there too I guess) that is right next to a giant exhibit about all the material damage that the awful USAAF did that specifically tallies up the cost of replacing all the bridges that were blown up. This changes by region and by museum. In Les Invalides, the emphasis is HEAVILY on De Gaulle and the Resistance.* They've converted a full half of the basement to a walk-through of De Gaulle's life ("The Charles de Gaulle Historical Center") and it really pushes the hagiography. In retrospect I should have bought a shirt.  But in Normandy the various smaller museums, like the D-Day museum right behind Omaha Beach or the Juno Beach Center, show whoever was landed there, Americans and Canadians respectively. * For WWII, that is. The museum as a whole covers a lot of ground, from smaller exhibits on Gauls v. Romans through the Medieval era through present day. WWI receives a lot of attention, and it's quite sober.
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Jun 21, 2023 21:08
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mllaneza posted:I've been planning a vacation in France, and I've discovered that their passenger rail kicks rear end. Paris to Calais is three hours, is less than $20, and there's food. Then rent a car for a few hours when you get to Normandy. Calais is not in normandy and pretty far from it. The lower Normandy bits at least You'd be better taking the train to Caen (2 hours) and renting the car there if you want a car in normandy. Juno (courseulles) and bayeux are about 30 minutes each from Caen, though you can get the train straight to Bayeux (pretty nice, and the tapestry is neat) or Carentan (not really worth a visit) if you wanted. The memorial in caen is a decent museum, has some bits about occupation and wwi beyond the standard normandy D-day type stuff. St mere église has a good biscuiterie. Cessna is right though, gently caress the rest of it off and go to the mont st Michel instead. It's incredible and in normandy
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Jun 21, 2023 23:20
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If you're in the British Museum, go see Pete Marsh (Lindow Man), the Sutton Hoo helmet, the hoard of Roman silver from Mildenhall, the skeleton from Maiden Castle with a ballista bolthead in its spine.
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Jun 21, 2023 23:52
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It also happens to be milhist-adjacent, but for Paris you can never go wrong with hitting up the Catacombs with half a bottle of red wine in you already.
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Jun 22, 2023 02:10
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Xiahou Dun posted:It also happens to be milhist-adjacent, but for Paris you can never go wrong with hitting up the Catacombs with half a bottle of red wine in you already. MY DUDE HAVE YOU TRIED LSD!!
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Jun 22, 2023 02:27
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In Paris the deportation memorial changed me in a profound way, Vichy France didn’t need to be that way, people chose to make it that way. Everything I’ve read since makes it worse. To lighten things up, growing up in the Anglo sphere as a war nerd, seeing des Invalides and the entirety of the military museum was great, Napoleon being glorified instead of vilified is a treat. Top of the Arch has cool stuff too, hell even the tourist traps like Musee de Illusion are a gas and worthwhile.
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Jun 22, 2023 04:09
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mllaneza posted:I've been planning a vacation in France, and I've discovered that their passenger rail kicks rear end. Paris to Calais is three hours, is less than $20, and there's food. Then rent a car for a few hours when you get to Normandy. According to my French friends, French passenger trains are great if your start or end destination is Paris. Everything else is a nightmare because nothing much leads directly to anywhere else, it just all goes to Paris and back out again. My friends were generally not Parisians.
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Jun 22, 2023 06:32
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Cessna posted:In retrospect I should have bought a shirt. Okay that shirt is just the French version of 
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Jun 22, 2023 06:43
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Le me, looking at t-shirt and having le cringe.
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Jun 22, 2023 10:52
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The shirt was made for people to wear whilst eating fast food, sauce flying down onto the stern smug annoyed face.
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Jun 22, 2023 12:11
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