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I remember thinking it would be hilarious if Yamato snuck onto the wrong ship and he ended up temporarily crewing with Kidd.... boy that idea aged poorly!
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Jul 6, 2023 02:57
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Andrew_1985 posted:Didn’t Sanji get a transfusion from a gay guy in Fishman Island and that was the last of his nosebleed problems? It was a pair of twins that he got a transfusion from. The treatment of the pair was not great and was essentially just a continuation of the Kamabakka Kingdom business.
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Jul 6, 2023 03:00
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The mildest defense of those really indefensible characters is that only Sanji thinks there's anything wrong with them. It is presented as a completely Sanji specific pathology to have any issue with these people at all. Of course they're presented in a way where Sanji's revulsion is supposed to be something the audience can understand, and that's just purely lovely, but considering their role in the story and the world it's clear Oda doesn't hate them. Still, even with the "positive" characters, it's a constant joke that they're unattractive. (With the sole exception of Inazuma.) I had a Mr. 2 avatar for my first decade or so on this site, because Mr. 2 owns, but eventually that aspect- the joke of being absurdly unattractive on the outside, contrast with his beautiful heart- made me uncomfortable enough in the context of actual trans people I know dealing with body image issues that I kind of cooled even on that largely positive depiction.
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Jul 6, 2023 03:13
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Jerusalem posted:I remember thinking it would be hilarious if Yamato snuck onto the wrong ship and he ended up temporarily crewing with Kidd.... boy that idea aged poorly! In that scenario I just see him ditching Kidd for Shanks or bashing Kidd's head in cause I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be down for Kidd's reckless attack either.
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Jul 6, 2023 05:04
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Electric Phantasm posted:In that scenario I just see him ditching Kidd for Shanks or bashing Kidd's head in cause I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be down for Kidd's reckless attack either. in that scenario Yamato would be able to tell that Shanks is merely 97% as powerful as Kaido's base power, and that with the full moon his zoan powers would outrank Shanks, however if you were to put Mihawk in the mix, who we know is the strongest swordsman, then
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Jul 6, 2023 05:18
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The numbers don't lie, Shanks, and they spell disaster for you at Laugh Tale
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Jul 6, 2023 05:57
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Eiba posted:Still, even with the "positive" characters, it's a constant joke that they're unattractive. (With the sole exception of Inazuma.) I had a Mr. 2 avatar for my first decade or so on this site, because Mr. 2 owns, but eventually that aspect- the joke of being absurdly unattractive on the outside, contrast with his beautiful heart- made me uncomfortable enough in the context of actual trans people I know dealing with body image issues that I kind of cooled even on that largely positive depiction. I guess it’s subjective and all but Bon Clay doesn’t feel like a mean spirited depiction of trans/nonbinary people the way the generic background okama do. He just looks like a guy who would fit in alongside most other significant named characters like Lucci, Enel, Moria and Mihawk. I don’t he’s supposed to be read as specifically a trans women as opposed to just queer/nonbinary though, because he has his whole cool hero speech at the end of Alabasta where he says he has the heart of both at times.
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Jul 6, 2023 06:12
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He is kinda... iffy.
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Jul 6, 2023 06:21
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Interesting note that even in the middle of Kamabakka Kingdom's utter bullshit and harmful stereotypes about "the predatory gays", Sanji refused to attack his pursuers because he considered them women.
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Jul 6, 2023 06:22
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Last Celebration posted:I guess it’s subjective and all but Bon Clay doesn’t feel like a mean spirited depiction of trans/nonbinary people the way the generic background okama do. He just looks like a guy who would fit in alongside most other significant named characters like Lucci, Enel, Moria and Mihawk. I don’t he’s supposed to be read as specifically a trans women as opposed to just queer/nonbinary though, because he has his whole cool hero speech at the end of Alabasta where he says he has the heart of both at times. But Bon Clay is ugly as a joke. I think he's awesome. I think he looks awesome. But there's a very early gag with him where he puts together the ugliest face in the world, and he puts together his own features with Usopp's nose. Oda was trying to draw someone ugly when he drew Mr 2. Oda was ultimately making a point about how an absurdly "ugly" person had an absurdly beautiful soul, but that contrast was part of the joke. Not the most defining part like the background okama later in the story, but definitely a part of it. "A man who wants to be more feminine ends up an ugly parody of femininity" is... kind of core to his character design. There's a lot to mitigate that- he's happy with himself, he's a good person, he's representative of a certain kind of person, a positive representation of someone who doesn't "pass" and kind of revels in the am-bi-gui-i-ty, and all that. I really like Mr 2. A lot. One of my favorite characters in all of fiction. But it is a joke that he's ugly. Once I actually liked that joke, to be honest. I appreciate "ugly" characters who aren't idealized in a medium where everything could easily be idealized. He's way more interesting the way he is. But I know trans people- trans women, and nonbinary trans people- who have serious issues with body image. So that joke lands differently for me now.
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Jul 6, 2023 06:35
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Eiba posted:[...] So that joke lands differently for me now. At least there's some very conventionally attractive trans representation in one piece now too, like Yamato, Kiku and Sir Crocodile
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Jul 6, 2023 07:05
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Waffleman_ posted:The numbers don't lie, Shanks, and they spell disaster for you at Laugh Tale I love this joke in all it's permutations. I'll still watch the original and be utterly fascinated it even happened in the first place.  Craptain Mid wasn't enough of a GENETIC FREAK apparently.
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Jul 6, 2023 09:47
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Gyges posted:Change it back, doc, change it back! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjCxyruU8NI
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Jul 6, 2023 13:23
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In a series with a wider variety of trans narratives Bon Clay would be fine. In a series where our primary exposure to queer folk is constantly "hideously ugly but good at heart" Bon Clay is simply the most well written instance of a cruel theme
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Jul 6, 2023 13:45
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Eiba posted:The mildest defense of those really indefensible characters is that only Sanji thinks there's anything wrong with them. It is presented as a completely Sanji specific pathology to have any issue with these people at all. Even if it was played this way, where they look normal to everyone else, that'd make Sanji a homophobe and... yeah there's no way to be kind to that arc, it just straight up sucks, I wish Oda didn't do it, and I don't think it's defensible in any way. Did Oda ever acknowledge, comment on it, or apologise in any way? Yamato & Kikunojo being great characters at the very least means he's learnt not to do that poo poo again
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Jul 6, 2023 13:45
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Not that the Kamabakka stuff was great, but I thought that it was based on a specific Japanese drag scene/performer that Oda liked. Or at least I read that somewhere before.
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Jul 6, 2023 14:17
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Deki posted:Not that the Kamabakka stuff was great, but I thought that it was based on a specific Japanese drag scene/performer that Oda liked. Or at least I read that somewhere before. Ivankov specifically is based off an actual queer person he met through Luffy’s voice actor, who actually voiced him for a while in the show after nailing the audition that Oda insisted he do. He then got recasted after being arrested for more or less bullshit, but the first part’s pretty neat!
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Jul 6, 2023 14:28
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There is, of course, a lot of Frank N. Furter there as well, which is probably why the official translation writes him like Tim Curry doing a bad German accent.
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Jul 6, 2023 14:36
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Last Celebration posted:He then got recasted after being arrested for more or less bullshit, but the first part’s pretty neat! Lost role due to *checks notes* indecent photos of him showing off his tattoos. You forget how regressive Japan is about a lot of things.
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Jul 6, 2023 14:40
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I do think the okama stuff comes off as worse to a foreign audience who doesn't recognise the subculture that's being depicted (actually in a pretty positive light most of the time). There are definitely jokes that play into offensive stereotypes though, particularly the whole Sanji timeskip story.Infinitum posted:Did Oda ever acknowledge, comment on it, or apologise in any way?
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Jul 6, 2023 14:51
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In the WSJ author comments in October 2020, Oda wrote because he had to take a break cause he was sick
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Jul 6, 2023 15:14
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the original ivankov voice was so much better. the replacement just sounds like he's short of breath.
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Jul 6, 2023 15:57
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is this poo poo almost back i wnat to learn more about imu
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Jul 6, 2023 16:26
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tbp posted:is this poo poo almost back i wnat to learn more about imu One more week before leaks. Official chapter will drop on the 17th or the 18th, speedscans a bit earlier like the 12th. It's a matter of days rather than weeks now. We're almost there. GruntMountain fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Jul 6, 2023 |
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Jul 6, 2023 16:33
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tbp posted:is this poo poo almost back i wnat to learn more about imu I'm not convinced that we're going to. Sabo is running away during the retelling. we still have Garp & Rescue crew, Bonney & Kuma backstory and Saturn heading to Egghead I think we have the jist of what happened at Reverie and will move on
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Jul 6, 2023 16:36
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Infinitum posted:Did Oda ever acknowledge, comment on it, or apologise in any way? yeah he did the level 3 apology from the like a dragon business sim
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Jul 6, 2023 16:37
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Yeah this seems like a logical time to return to Egghead.
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Jul 6, 2023 16:43
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I think it’s worth acknowledging that there is a difference between being a drag queen and being a trans woman, and I think it’s reasonable to assume that Kamabakka Kingdom is supposed to be a (still not great) portrayal of the former but not necessarily the latter. If anything, the examples we have of explicitly trans people in One Piece are generally positive, I think?
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Jul 6, 2023 18:21
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Bleck posted:I think it’s worth acknowledging that there is a difference between being a drag queen and being a trans woman, and I think it’s reasonable to assume that Kamabakka Kingdom is supposed to be a (still not great) portrayal of the former but not necessarily the latter. If anything, the examples we have of explicitly trans people in One Piece are generally positive, I think? Considering Ivankov transitions people with their fruit, and those people are always hot girls or boys, I figured it was all but stated that anyone with a 5 o'clock shadow and a dress was just big into drag/dressing in women's clothing. It's not like Japan is unfamiliar with the concept of femboys. It's hard to separate that long stretch of absolute terrible Sanji's reactions and how normal people react. We just don't have very many people other than Mr. Sexual Harassment Nosebleed to serve as data points for how society reacts to them. Like, outside Sanji I think the only actual group of people interacting with that "type" was in Impel Down. A place where half the guards are explicitly deep into kinks, and 90% of everyone else is an irredeemable monster well deserving of being locked away in the deepest pit.
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Jul 6, 2023 20:15
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I think the Bon Clay ugly-on-the-outside (BECAUSE HES A TRANS/DRAGQUEEN HO HO HO) joke is progressive for its time and country, but very much not great today. I think it's the same as rampant sexism in 80's manga, and blatant nose-bone racism in otherwise excellent children's books from the 50's. (E.g. Pippi Longstocking's sailor dad being a 'friend of the family king' (yes that really is what is written in the books) in a faraway country). It's just how the times were and people know better today, and the best you can do is consider it an educational moment and a measure of societal progression. It's fine to point out how gross they are but also just accept it as the history of the world. Oda is handling these issues muuuuch better today, I mean compare Bon Clay, a fantastic and heroic character with problematic presentation, to Mr. Pink and Yamato, both fantastic and heroic characters but with loving perfect presentations. I feel you can clearly tell his heart has always been in the right place and he has been learning and improving with the times. Bisse fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Jul 6, 2023 |
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Jul 6, 2023 21:41
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I can accept the impel down queer characters as being "of their time and place" but the squad of near identical 11 ft. Tall hairy berserkers that existed to flirt with Sanji and get transhobia'd at were of no time or place
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Jul 6, 2023 22:09
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oda was bad with trans issues before but he's gotten significantly better over the last few years esp as he's stopped doing the joke that's been discussed over the last few pages really
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Jul 7, 2023 00:29
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i have a little pet theory that i'm not sure why i think, but it feels right to think about: i think imu is "dreaming" the one piece world in some sense. this si why they command such utter devotion from the power structure which exists, and ties into bb's line about a "man's dream never dying". i think they're functioning as some sort of lynchpin for the world itself
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Jul 7, 2023 00:30
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the will of d ream
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Jul 7, 2023 00:34
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tbp posted:i have a little pet theory that i'm not sure why i think, but it feels right to think about : i think imu is "dreaming" the one piece world in some sense. this si why they command such utter devotion from the power structure which exists, and ties into bb's line about a "man's dream never dying". i think they're functioning as some sort of lynchpin for the world itself Discord friend was talking about something similar in that line of thought...   Link's Awakening was released 4 years before OP btw.
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Jul 7, 2023 00:54
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tbp posted:i have a little pet theory that i'm not sure why i think, but it feels right to think about : i think imu is "dreaming" the one piece world in some sense. this si why they command such utter devotion from the power structure which exists, and ties into bb's line about a "man's dream never dying". i think they're functioning as some sort of lynchpin for the world itself Plutonis posted:Discord friend was talking about something similar in that line of thought... quote:DREAMIN'
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Jul 7, 2023 00:56
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His name is Link he's just like a Samurai L-A-D-Y, Zelda's not shy
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Jul 7, 2023 01:25
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tbp posted:i have a little pet theory that i'm not sure why i think, but it feels right to think about : i think imu is "dreaming" the one piece world in some sense. this si why they command such utter devotion from the power structure which exists, and ties into bb's line about a "man's dream never dying". i think they're functioning as some sort of lynchpin for the world itself The Pirate Rap way the key all along.
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Jul 7, 2023 01:29
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Couldn't see if anyone posted this yet but the One Piece youtube channel put this out for the new volume. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Sb4wxbHh-4 Love the custom song they made just for Vegapunk
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Jul 7, 2023 01:31
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Plutonis posted:Discord friend was talking about something similar in that line of thought... huh, neat, i never made that connection
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Jul 7, 2023 02:32
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