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ImpAtom posted:"As a kid" is the key part there though. If you have effectively infinite free time and no responsibilities it's a lot easier to get engaged with stuff like that, versus people who have like 2-3 hours tops a day to play and would like to experience the content they paid for instead of missing a bunch of cool stuff and only finding it out after the fact. I want to experience the content I paid for, yeah, but I don't want it to give me a big list of Content which it then deliberately pads out with fetch quests. If I wanted that, I'd play an MMO(and sometimes do). When I show up for a linear rpg, I'm looking for a linear RPG. Story, fights, cool places to go, and then done. It's nice if I sometimes feel like faffing around and, in the process, find some extra stuff. It's not nice when the game stops me and goes "Hey, here's a big list of stuff. I'm expecting you to do most or all of it, and if you don't then then I'm going to play a sad trombone at you and scratch off a bunch of things on it with a red pen so you know I'm disappointed with you." I want to get on with things, because like you say: I don't have infinite free time. If I cared about missing stuff, I'd get a guide.
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Jul 18, 2023 19:28
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No Dignity posted:Nah I just love weird open ended mysteries in games, you can see it in modern stuff like the egg in Deltarune too, it's just a great conceit The world is a different place now though. Media and the internet is everywhere. People are more easily connected to information than ever before. Nowadays before games even come out, they're going to be mined by influencers for every secret so that the influencer can ~create content~. There are a few rare instances of mysteries that go unsolved for extended time, but those are incredibly rare and very few and far between. "Don't signposts side quests" is not that.
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Jul 18, 2023 19:28
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Mega64 posted:I can't believe different people want different things. It's mad. We need to homogenize, and ostracise any outliers. Namely the ones who like FFX
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Jul 18, 2023 19:29
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cock hero flux posted:I want to experience the content I paid for, yeah, but I don't want it to give me a big list of Content which it then deliberately pads out with fetch quests. If I wanted that, I'd play an MMO(and sometimes do). When I show up for a linear rpg, I'm looking for a linear RPG. Story, fights, cool places to go, and then done. It's nice if I sometimes feel like faffing around and, in the process, find some extra stuff. It's not nice when the game stops me and goes "Hey, here's a big list of stuff. I'm expecting you to do most or all of it, and if you don't then then I'm going to play a sad trombone at you and scratch off a bunch of things on it with a red pen so you know I'm disappointed with you." I want to get on with things, because like you say: I don't have infinite free time. If I cared about missing stuff, I'd get a guide. If you don't want to do side content. Don't do the side content? I love the Yakuza games. Quite a few of the side quests in those games are boring loving dogshit. Even if they're on the map, I ain't doing them. Because I don't enjoy them.
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Jul 18, 2023 19:30
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Mordiceius posted:If you don't want to do side content. Don't do the side content? Alright now I've heard everything.
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Jul 18, 2023 19:32
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cock hero flux posted:I mean, most of them, though I never got more than like 20 minutes into 4 for whatever reason. So off the top of my head: FF6 has a Cursed Shield which is just a cursed item. You need to fight for *256* battles wearing it for it to uncurse itself and become the best shield in the game that also teaches the best spell in the game. You can also trade the Cursed Shield for a Cursed Ring which can't have its curse broken. The thing I disliked which is Gogo. Shadow will permanently die unless you wait at the very rear end end of a timed dungeon until the last second. The game does give you a warning about this but only if you choose not to leave and then leave again. The entire thing with getting Raiden Barret's ultimate weapon only is available if you have him in your party during a specific part with no warning The Underwater Materia The entire insane method of drops in FF8 A bunch of GFs in FF8 (looking at you Tonberry King) Excalibur II Like, I can go on. There's a tooooon of this stuff.
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Jul 18, 2023 19:33
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Mordiceius posted:If you don't want to do side content. Don't do the side content? That's what I used to do, I'd plow through an FF and do maybe 20% of the side content at most. The difference is that when it wasn't signposted and there wasn't that much of it, the game was not designed with the expectation that you would do it, and didn't try to make you feel bad if you didn't. Now, it's all signposted, so the developers expect you to do it, and punish you a bit for not doing it. Hell, look at FF7 Remake. This is the cutscene you get for not doing the sidequests in the area where you meet Aerith: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CoBmu2-yPQ
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Jul 18, 2023 19:33
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I suspect the reason people often don't "feel" the linearity as keenly in FFX compared to FFXIII is down to some subtle game design and writing elements that most of us (myself included) probably aren't consciously noticing when we play, but we can still feel the difference in the subjective experience. The two games are similarly linear, but I think you could play them side by side today and one would feel more "on rails" than the other. I know I said I'm one of the many people who probably can't intelligently comment on why this is but if I had to guess, a couple reasons might include:
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Jul 18, 2023 19:37
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ImpAtom posted:So off the top of my head: Some of this is valid, like Gogo, Shadow and the Missing Score(which isn't really a sidequest? it's just a weird arbitrary thing where the chest doesn't appear if he's not there, I never understood why this is). Other stuff, you get like a piece of equipment that's good. And it's not actually missable: if you find about it later, you can still just go do it. I can't speak for anything in FF8 either way because, while I did play it, I actively avoided side content out of a desire to just get it over with.
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Jul 18, 2023 19:38
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But the content in Yakuza or Ubisoft collection/action games is all very clearly labeled and easily avoidable! FF 16 sounds like an almost perfect game for me because the first ones I played were 1&2 GBA and FF4DS and that made me want more Summons all the time every game. I don't have a PS5 so I'm avoiding spoilers but I don't think they're actually characters beyond possibly cackling villains. So we're getting closer to what I'm looking for. Main featured characters is better than just being bombs you drop on people.
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Jul 18, 2023 19:38
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welcome posted:Alright now I've heard everything. Hey now, I didn't say it was all of the substories. But a large percentage of Y1 and Y3 substories are tremendously boring and bland. The good ones are incredibly loving good. But the bad ones are worse than the most boring poo poo in FFXVI. cock hero flux posted:That's what I used to do, I'd plow through an FF and do maybe 20% of the side content at most. The difference is that when it wasn't signposted and there wasn't that much of it, the game was not designed with the expectation that you would do it, and didn't try to make you feel bad if you didn't. Now, it's all signposted, so the developers expect you to do it, and punish you a bit for not doing it. "it's all signposted" This is a good thing. "so the developers expect you to do it" No they don't. "punish you a bit for not doing it" No they don't. With that Aerith cutscene, you can just opperate under the assumption that the ugly dress is the "default" option. Doing side stuff gives you bonus/better scenes. But that's always common in poo poo. Hell, we Abe talking just a page ago about frustrations with options hidden cutscenes in FF7 that are often core to understanding a character's motivations. That poo poo sucks.
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Jul 18, 2023 19:41
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RareAcumen posted:But the content in Yakuza or Ubisoft collection/action games is all very clearly labeled and easily avoidable! Yeah, but those aren't linear RPGs. They're open world, and intended for people who want that sort of thing. If you avoid the side content in an Ubisoft game I'm honestly not sure what's left, and I'm pretty sure that if you cut all of the sidequests out of Yakuza nobody would want to play it anymore.
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Jul 18, 2023 19:41
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Mordiceius posted:There are a few rare instances of mysteries that go unsolved for extended time, but those are incredibly rare and very few and far between. The only one I know of is when the hidden basement was first found in Borderlands. A while after launch, someone posted a question on the Gearbox forums about it, saying a dev joined their game and eventually mentioned it to the poster. People thought they were trolling for a while until a Gearbox employee finally spoke up in the thread and said the rumor was legit, so there was just a mad scramble to figure it out with hints dropped over time, and a while later someone found it. It's an out of the way unmarked door that only unlocks during one quest in the storyline, when you wouldn't really have much reason to go back there. Would love to hear about more examples, that kind of stuff fascinates me.
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Jul 18, 2023 19:42
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ImpAtom posted:"As a kid" is the key part there though. If you have effectively infinite free time and no responsibilities it's a lot easier to get engaged with stuff like that, versus people who have like 2-3 hours tops a day to play and would like to experience the content they paid for instead of missing a bunch of cool stuff and only finding it out after the fact. I don't see how being a kid has any bearing here? I didn't complete either sidequest back then either becaise it was too obtuse, but it was just cool to find these weird little events at the fringes of the world. All you're saying is that as an adult you have completionist brain and want to knock off all the content is a relatively simple and easy to parse manner, and I think even as an adult an unsolved mystery is still cool and worthwhile
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Jul 18, 2023 19:45
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Mordiceius posted:Hey now, I didn't say it was all of the substories. But a large percentage of Y1 and Y3 substories are tremendously boring and bland. The good ones are incredibly loving good. But the bad ones are worse than the most boring poo poo in FFXVI. Not in my opinion, yes they do(at least some of it, anyway), and yes they do. Don't be disingenuous, that cutscene is absolutely intended to be a "this is what you get for rushing" bit. It even comes with a lovely flute version of the theme playing. And I wouldn't consider the thing with FF7 to be a flaw with not signposting sidequests as much as it is a flaw with including critical story content in a sidequest, signposted or not. If the information is absolutely necessary for understanding the story, it's a bad idea to allow the player to skip it.
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Jul 18, 2023 19:45
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Mordiceius posted:Hey now, I didn't say it was all of the substories. But a large percentage of Y1 and Y3 substories are tremendously boring and bland. Hey everybody should play and like or dislike what they want - I was more just flabbergasted at the "love Yakuza, hate the substories" take. That said I agree on Y1 and Y3, especially 3 where there's 200 of the fuckers.
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Jul 18, 2023 19:46
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Is 3 the one where you get the majority of your EXP from sidequests, which seems like a neat idea until you realize that means they made a ton of filler sidequests to fill the leveling curve.
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Jul 18, 2023 19:47
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Excalibur II is my favorite missable. Hey kids, want this sword? Just skip everything else in the game and it can be yours! I didn't get far in 12 but the Phoenix Spear and the invisible airship chest always sounded about as absurd.
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Jul 18, 2023 19:49
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More games should pull a Xenoblade 3 where like 40% of the story is purely optional
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Jul 18, 2023 19:50
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[wokely] i think all of aerith's dresses are pretty
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Jul 18, 2023 19:56
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welcome posted:Hey everybody should play and like or dislike what they want - I was more just flabbergasted at the "love Yakuza, hate the substories" take. That said I agree on Y1 and Y3, especially 3 where there's 200 of the fuckers. I literally do not hate the substories. At no point have I ever claimed to hate the substories. Having played basically every RGG game at this point, I tend to do almost all of the substories in the games. That being said, a lot of the earlier Yakuza games (mainly Y1 and Y3) have a bunch of really lovely filler substories. Stuff like Y0, YLAD, and Judgment are like 80% good substories and 20% boring substories. Y1 and Y3 are like 80% boring substories and 20% good substories.
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Jul 18, 2023 19:59
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I personally prefer not feeling like I need to have a guide open at all times to ensure I don't miss cool side content. If I can see an icon above a persons head or w/e I can choose if I feel like doing it or not and that's on me.
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Jul 18, 2023 20:04
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welcome posted:Hey everybody should play and like or dislike what they want - I was more just flabbergasted at the "love Yakuza, hate the substories" take. That said I agree on Y1 and Y3, especially 3 where there's 200 of the fuckers. Nononono, similar sounding terms but very different meaning. Side content is golf or Outrun, or pocket circuit, or taxi driving. Substories are Ono Michio, pants theif kid, helping knockoff Steven Spielberg and Michael Jackson film a movie scene. cock hero flux posted:Yeah, but those aren't linear RPGs. They're open world, and intended for people who want that sort of thing. If you avoid the side content in an Ubisoft game I'm honestly not sure what's left, and I'm pretty sure that if you cut all of the sidequests out of Yakuza nobody would want to play it anymore. The main story is what's left, the same as every other game that has a focal narrative! (That leaves out games like, Animal Crossing, sport and racing games, fighting games, etc.) I'm more talking about stuff like collecting all the feathers or screws that fell out of someone's cuckoo clock or whatever now.
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Jul 18, 2023 20:11
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No Dignity posted:I don't see how being a kid has any bearing here? I didn't complete either sidequest back then either becaise it was too obtuse, but it was just cool to find these weird little events at the fringes of the world. All you're saying is that as an adult you have completionist brain and want to knock off all the content is a relatively simple and easy to parse manner, and I think even as an adult an unsolved mystery is still cool and worthwhile Totally agree with this. I'm a grown rear end man and I still go "wow, cool" when I discover secret quests and stuff like that, whether that's through exploring on my own or by learning about it from someone else. I'm not sure I understand people arbitrarily deciding it's OK and cool when Elden Ring and classic FF games do unmarked quests but a modern Final Fantasy game with unmarked quests would be beyond the pale. And funnily enough, yes, there is a middle ground between "all content in the game is specifically signposted and categorized in-game" and "Tales-style back-tracking to a random village within a very strict time window to continue a quest line to unlock some incredible reward in the endgame".
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Jul 18, 2023 20:16
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I personally prefer not feeling like I need to have a guide open at all times to ensure I don't miss cool side content. If I can see an icon above a persons head or w/e I can choose if I feel like doing it or not and that's on me. For me, it depends if the game emphasized replayability. If I’m going to do multiple runs, missing things is a feature and finding new quests or items on playthrough six is a gift.
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Jul 18, 2023 20:22
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FFX's linearity is really alleviated by Tidus being a complete outsider to Spira who is experiencing all this stuff for the first time without any context, as it allows the writers to explain stuff to the audience and imparts a sense of slow revelation about the nature of the world. Yes you're going forward down a hallway, but it also has the sense of going deeper into the story as you uncover more about the world. Meanwhile, XIII's cast are all familiar with everything. Even the naive sheltered ones understand the setting at least on the level of "Oh yeah, Gran Pulse, I've heard of that place, I hear it sucks," so it all feels perfunctory, no exposition, no real sense of wonder even as they walk past impressive important-seeming vistas. Nobody super gives a poo poo about taking in the sights, THEY treat it as running from point A to point B.
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Jul 18, 2023 20:22
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Final Fantasy X feels like going on vacation with local friends/pen pals. Final Fantasy XIII feels like living in Ohio.
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Jul 18, 2023 20:24
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I also like that "Sin Toxins" probably isn't real, it's just everyone saying he's loving stupid/crazy.
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Jul 18, 2023 20:25
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Vengarr posted:For me, it depends if the game emphasized replayability. If I’m going to do multiple runs, missing things is a feature and finding new quests or items on playthrough six is a gift. I agree that it depends on whether the game is designed with replayability in mind. And to me, a 50+ hour story game is never something where replayability is a core focus. Something like Rogue Legacy is built with replayability and discovery. Or if you want to look at a more "story" game, I would argue that Undertale fits that. Multiple endings and secrets and replayability. If a game's story is over 10 hours long, I generally ain't gonna play it more than once.
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Jul 18, 2023 20:29
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jokes posted:I also like that "Sin Toxins" probably isn't real, it's just everyone saying he's loving stupid/crazy. I like that as soon as Tidus hears that as a possible excuse he runs with it and immediately breaks it out as an excuse to say and do whatever dumb poo poo he feels like doing.
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Jul 18, 2023 20:31
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Yeah, showing how loving stupid he is. Just don't ask obviously stupid questions and read the room you dumb jock!!!!!
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Jul 18, 2023 20:32
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I'M CAPTAIN BOSCH, AND I'VE BEEN INFECTED BY SIN'S TOXINS
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Jul 18, 2023 20:34
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cock hero flux posted:i don't know what elden ring does because i never played it but this is basically just what every final fantasy up to 10 did my favorite thing was my first (and actually only) time finishing ff7, i didn't get yuffie after midgar. I didn't know she existed and also didn't know vincent existed until later. when i did get yuffie, it was disc 3, so wutai basically didn't exist, can't do anything there, and i completely missed her sidequest. maybe i should have known better but i was hellbent on finishing the game during the 3-day rental of both ff7 and a psx from blockbuster.
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Jul 18, 2023 20:38
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FFX is a 'straight line' but they do a very good job of disguising the linearity with the story and the world. Like there's a literal fork before the Moonflow and Djose and even though the party 'But Thou Musts' to Djose first, the fact that it's there makes the different areas feel more alive and connected. Even little things like the party going to Seymour's mansion, then to the Farplane, before going to the Thunder Plains via the other Guadosalam exit makes it feel like you're going throughout a location instead of 'into the mouth of the dungeon, ransack it for treasure, out the anus and onto the next one'. Like there's no reason to ever backtrack (other than getting Energy Blast), but the fact that the option exists makes the world feel less like a disjointed set of stages.
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Jul 18, 2023 21:09
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ApplesandOranges posted:Like there's no reason to ever backtrack (other than getting Energy Blast), but the fact that the option exists makes the world feel less like a disjointed set of stages. I like the idea that the group is spending weeks or months on the pilgrimage, mostly walking through a whole arse continent, and Tidus just occasionally decides he wants to go all the way back to the start to grab some loot.
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Jul 18, 2023 21:17
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I just want optional dungeons and side areas with cool poo poo in them. 4 - 6 did this well. here's a tough dungeon with a fuckin monstrosity at the end squatting on something cool, or an item that leads to something cool. Even 15 did this pretty well. dev time is way more costly now, and maybe they have internal metrics like "90% of players never bother" so why waste time. that's the kind of side stuff I like though. hunt quests are fine too provided there's a real fucker waiting at the end
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Jul 18, 2023 21:25
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TheHoosier posted:I just want optional dungeons and side areas with cool poo poo in them. 4 - 6 did this well. here's a tough dungeon with a fuckin monstrosity at the end squatting on something cool, or an item that leads to something cool. Even 15 did this pretty well. I think that was actually a thing in Pokemon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, where they didn't bring back the Battle Frontier because the devs thought that too little people would make use of it.
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Jul 18, 2023 21:27
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All this talk about linearity in FF games and here I am playing romancing saga heehee
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Jul 18, 2023 21:40
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ApplesandOranges posted:FFX is a 'straight line' but they do a very good job of disguising the linearity with the story and the world. Like there's a literal fork before the Moonflow and Djose and even though the party 'But Thou Musts' to Djose first, the fact that it's there makes the different areas feel more alive and connected. Even little things like the party going to Seymour's mansion, then to the Farplane, before going to the Thunder Plains via the other Guadosalam exit makes it feel like you're going throughout a location instead of 'into the mouth of the dungeon, ransack it for treasure, out the anus and onto the next one'. Another thing is that FFX has Blitzball and Chocobo Racing. It really helps a game to not feel like you're just running down corridors when you can break up the pacing and play a minigame for a while. FF13 didn't have any minigames or towns or anything that wasn't just running down corridors, fighting and watching cutscenes. Players need something to break up a gameplay loop sometimes to stop it from feeling monotonous.
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Jul 18, 2023 21:42
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People also need to consider that Elden Ring is an open world game where you are meant to stumble on important stuff by accident. This doesnt work in Final Fantasy because you always have a clear destination where to go and any deviation from that path is up to the player. So they might end up missing stuff simply because the game explicitly says what you have to do instead of wandering around.
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Jul 18, 2023 21:51
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