(Thread IKs:
fatherboxx)
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Enjoy posted:I was asked "whose narrative" it was, as if this is defeatist propaganda circulated by Russia. When in fact it's the view of some troops on the ground. You were asked "by whose narrative was it concluded", and thus failed. You quoted 'some soldiers' wondering if they can breakthrough, not that the narrative was over and a failure. You even outright stated it was a failure and that 'it makes sense' for Ukraine to beg for peace now (even though they aren't begging for peace).
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Jul 21, 2023 19:48
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Enjoy posted:I was asked "whose narrative" it was, as if this is defeatist propaganda circulated by Russia. When in fact it's the view of some troops on the ground. It isn't anyone's narrative, it's a few random comments from soldiers closest to the front who are naturally going to have tunnel vision about the operation. Using that article as support for declaring the offensive a failure is a rather deliberate mischaracterization.
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Jul 21, 2023 19:48
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Deteriorata posted:It isn't anyone's narrative, it's a few random comments from soldiers closest to the front who are naturally going to have tunnel vision about the operation. Using that article as support for declaring the offensive a failure is a rather deliberate mischaracterization. I used the article to show it's not a nefarious narrative from Russia. The reason I think the offensive has failed is that it hasn't taken any significant ground.
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Jul 21, 2023 19:50
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Enjoy posted:I used the article to show it's not a nefarious narrative from Russia. The reason I think the offensive has failed is that it hasn't taken any significant ground. Taking significant ground is not the immediate point of it. You misunderstand Ukraine's objectives for it. Taking significant ground is supposed to happen eventually, but only after Russia's logistics train has been hosed up and soldiers have no food or fuel or ammo with which to fight.
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Jul 21, 2023 19:53
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Enjoy posted:I used the article to show it's not a nefarious narrative from Russia. The reason I think the offensive has failed is that it hasn't taken any significant ground. Considering Russian forces are constantly getting degraded while slowly losing ground, that's a very weird view to have. Recently, our news reported the new cluster munitions are having a great effect on Russian troops: Helping to clear defensive trenches and stopping Russian advances, both. Together with everything else going on, Russia is certainly not really looking great.
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Jul 21, 2023 19:54
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Enjoy posted:I used the article to show it's not a nefarious narrative from Russia. The reason I think the offensive has failed is that it hasn't taken any significant ground. The only person who suggested it was a 'nefarious narrative from Russia' was you.
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Jul 21, 2023 19:55
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Kchama posted:The only person who suggested it was a 'nefarious narrative from Russia' was you. Kavros suggested it. If they meant something else, I hope they chime in and correct my misunderstanding 
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Jul 21, 2023 19:56
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Deteriorata posted:Taking significant ground is not the immediate point of it. You misunderstand Ukraine's objectives for it. For this to be true, I would have to believe that the Ukrainian command placed little value on the lives of their soldiers, to treat them as literal cannon fodder. I don't think that's the case. I think the Ukrainian command will seek peace.
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Jul 21, 2023 19:58
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"Ukrainian command" doesn't get a say in whether or not peace is sought as they are subordinate to the civilian government.
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Jul 21, 2023 19:59
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Enjoy posted:Kavros suggested it. Again, you are the only one to suggest that it was Russia. He was asking where you came up with the "Oh Ukraine has lost the counterattack so they clearly are going to want peace and this would be good for that!" idea, and you suggested that these random soldiers were your source (it obviously wasn't, since that did not say what you claimed it said) and so when called out you started insinuating that it was claimed as a 'nefarious Russian narrative'.
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Jul 21, 2023 19:59
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Moon Slayer posted:"Ukrainian command" doesn't get a say in whether or not peace is sought as they are subordinate to the civilian government. I meant both the civilian and military leadership
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Jul 21, 2023 20:00
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Ah, I see we're in the "1 person argues bullshit in bad faith and occupies the entire thread for a couple days" stage again. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 21, 2023 20:04
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mutata posted:Ah, I see we're in the "1 person argues bullshit in bad faith and occupies the entire thread for a couple days" stage again. I'm sorry, please resume talking about your favourite borscht recipe
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Jul 21, 2023 20:05
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Enjoy posted:I'm sorry, please resume talking about your favourite borscht recipe Again, more interesting and factual than whatever dumb logical leaps you're performing, but don't let me stop you.
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Jul 21, 2023 20:07
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Enjoy posted:For this to be true, I would have to believe that the Ukrainian command placed little value on the lives of their soldiers, to treat them as literal cannon fodder. I don't think that's the case. I think the Ukrainian command will seek peace. yeah actually war is horrendously wasteful of human life, thats why it sucks. hasn't stopped war yet!
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Jul 21, 2023 20:11
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Shaping Operations and Sustainment. Note to self: go into more detail, adding pointed analysis to the dry doctrinal walls of text eventually quoted.
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Jul 21, 2023 20:14
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Trying to change the topic from speculation. Russians painting decoys in their airbases. Probably due to pressure from Ukrainian strikes? I can't see this disguising anything operationally. https://nitter.net/bradyafr/status/1682354735473655810#m
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Jul 21, 2023 20:14
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Enjoy posted:For this to be true, I would have to believe that the Ukrainian command placed little value on the lives of their soldiers, to treat them as literal cannon fodder. I don't think that's the case. I think the Ukrainian command will seek peace. I think you're wrong and either not posting in good faith or a weirdo, or both. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 21, 2023 20:15
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spankmeister posted:I think you're wrong and either not posting in good faith or a weirdo, or both. Ah, the Law of the Excluded Middle, no?
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Jul 21, 2023 20:16
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WarpedLichen posted:Trying to change the topic from speculation. Ukraine did the opposite of this earlier in the war by painting/printing tarps that looked like craters on many of their undamaged airfields and pretty successfully convinced Russian targeting people that xyz didn't need another strike because it had been neutralized.
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Jul 21, 2023 20:43
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Enjoy posted:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66121584 I hate this poo poo so I will reiterate something about it even if there already was some dragging about it You say Ukraine should seek peace because the counter offensive failed You get asked who's account it is that the counter-offensive is good and done You offer an article saying "people are wondering if the counteroffensive can have a breakthrough" I'm gonna just ask you if YOU see the issue where this fucks with people's patience
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Jul 21, 2023 20:48
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Why are ppl talking to ppl on my ignore list?  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 21, 2023 21:14
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WarpedLichen posted:Trying to change the topic from speculation.
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Jul 21, 2023 21:53
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Staluigi posted:I'm gonna just ask you if YOU see the issue where this fucks with people's patience I understand why it angers people: I think a lot of liberals subscribe to magical thinking where acknowledging that a thing is happening makes it happen. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 21, 2023 21:54
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Mr. Apollo posted:Wouldn't this be easily detectable since those painted planes wouldn't cast shadows? High resolution space cameras are, uh, apparently unknown technology. Russia has fallen far.
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Jul 21, 2023 21:56
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Enjoy posted:I understand why it angers people: I think a lot of liberals subscribe to magical thinking where acknowledging that a thing is happening makes it happen. What are you talking about? Like I get that you're attempting a sick dunk, but people have been asking you your source for claiming that the counterattack has failed and is over. Now you're just going "Oh well it's true and you just don't want to admit it, no I wouldn't show you a source that says that."
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Jul 21, 2023 21:59
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Mr. Apollo posted:Wouldn't this be easily detectable since those painted planes wouldn't cast shadows? Is it better than nothing? Almost certainly. Does it make the folks at home feel good? Kinda! Getting a fistfull of contractors and conscripts to splash some paint around isn't the worst military use of 400 low-grade man hours.
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Jul 21, 2023 22:07
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Kchama posted:What are you talking about? Like I get that you're attempting a sick dunk, but people have been asking you your source for claiming that the counterattack has failed and is over. Now you're just going "Oh well it's true and you just don't want to admit it, no I wouldn't show you a source that says that." My source is 1. the lack of movement on maps by the ISW etc and 2. some Ukrainian soldiers say the defences are too strong for a breakthrough We can disagree on the strength of the evidence but people are pretending this is just trolling when it isn't.
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Jul 21, 2023 22:07
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Quite the baiting sidestep Slava ukraine Faucet Drinker fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Jul 22, 2023 |
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Jul 21, 2023 22:07
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Enjoy posted:My source is 1. the lack of movement on maps by the ISW etc and 2. some Ukrainian soldiers say the defences are too strong for a breakthrough The 'some Ukrainian soldiers' said they had worries that they are, not they are. This is a pretty important difference. From your own post: Enjoy's own post" posted:As the casualties from Ukraine's counter-offensive mount, it is easy to see why - on a rare visit to this closely guarded section of the southern front - some soldiers and observers are starting to wonder if a breakthrough is possible, or whether Russia's defensive lines, built up and heavily-reinforced over the winter months, are simply too much of a barrier." Kchama fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Jul 21, 2023 |
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Jul 21, 2023 22:14
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Slo-Tek posted:Is it better than nothing? Almost certainly. Does it make the folks at home feel good? Kinda! It's the kind of thing where you are forcing intel people to do the minimal amount of work of comparing current and old satellite images, instead of just looking at the latest ones. Assuming that they don't have access to higher definition pictures. It might fool a drone operator, though?
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Jul 21, 2023 22:17
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Nenonen posted:It's the kind of thing where you are forcing intel people to do the minimal amount of work of comparing current and old satellite images, instead of just looking at the latest ones. Assuming that they don't have access to higher definition pictures. It might fool a drone operator, though? I can't conceive of this fooling anyone. Ukraine sees drone footage of this, they ask the coalition 'hey what do you make of this', every intelligence service tears down the pixels, snaps some new footage of the coordinates, identifies every actual tail number there, counts Russia's known aircraft, and start laughing. Like, this is just busy work for soldiers worried sick about dying.
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Jul 21, 2023 23:35
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Here is a little handy tip to remember for the armchair strategists out there, moving an invisible line in the dirt isn't the most important metric to judge how a war is going, especially if one side is taking attrition holding onto that dirt to the point they are running out of supplies and there are coups happening from the people with the only successes on their side.
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Jul 21, 2023 23:39
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The winning sides typically don't mass-arrest their generals mid-war is all I'm sayin'.
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Jul 22, 2023 00:00
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Nenonen posted:It's the kind of thing where you are forcing intel people to do the minimal amount of work of comparing current and old satellite images, instead of just looking at the latest ones. Assuming that they don't have access to higher definition pictures. It might fool a drone operator, though?
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Jul 22, 2023 00:12
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It's probably enough to fool the AI that analyzes the terabytes of satellite images. For a day...
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Jul 22, 2023 00:18
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anonumos posted:I can't conceive of this fooling anyone. Ukraine sees drone footage of this, they ask the coalition 'hey what do you make of this', every intelligence service tears down the pixels, snaps some new footage of the coordinates, identifies every actual tail number there, counts Russia's known aircraft, and start laughing. Like, this is just busy work for soldiers worried sick about dying. It isn't always about fooling the other side. It is about making it real enough that someone has to go do the checking or that they have to make the hi-res pass because a lesser asset couldn't get the job done with confidence. It is the same thing with the Ukrainians and their wooden tanks or painted craters. Yes, a thorough study of the target will reveal it is fake. But once you know that they are putting up fakes, you now need to ensure that your strikes are against real targets and now must always include the proper background work or risk hitting a bad target.
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Jul 22, 2023 00:20
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yeah probably just Russia adapting to the reality that Ukraine has long-range capabilities (and likely will only continue to have more) combined with Ukraine also having fairly limited access to sat time (and a targeting process that is independent of the US/NATO for that matter) and that every bit of time they spend looking at painted planes is time they aren't using to give a headquarters a closer look or w/e
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Jul 22, 2023 00:25
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Ra Ra Rasputin posted:The winning sides typically don't mass-arrest their generals mid-war is all I'm sayin'. Only if you dont play i20 Chess.
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Jul 22, 2023 00:36
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Apparently the building destroyed in Odesa center with rocket strikes a day or two ago was the HQ of a Turkish-Ukrainian joint grain export venture. https://dumskaya.net/news/raketno-dronovyy-udar-po-tcentru-odessy-privet-e-177488/
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Jul 22, 2023 00:47
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