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Tom Cruise didn't save anyone in The Last Samurai. They all died except him. [edit] Lol, this snipe.
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Jul 20, 2023 05:05
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teagone posted:Tom Cruise didn't save anyone in The Last Samurai. They all died except him. I'll save it by saying he probably died too.
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Jul 20, 2023 05:17
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teagone posted:Tom Cruise didn't save anyone in The Last Samurai. They all died except him. And the best he ever gets in 1 on 1 combat with Hiroyuki Sanada is a draw, he doesn't suddenly become Samurai Supreme.
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Jul 20, 2023 10:43
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Edward Zwick is kind of weird though because between Glory, Last Samurai, and Blood Diamond, he just kept making movies about nice white guys really exposing the plight of those non white people.
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Jul 20, 2023 16:33
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They're all White Saviour narratives but they're all also trying to do something more interesting with it. Glory's Shaw doesn't really do achieve any high ground aside from being a competent officer who takes his soldiers' service and training seriously. The most he really does is die alongside them in an unsuccessful attack. Last Samurai is a little different since the Samurai aren't 'noble savages'. They're a settled 'civilised' people, they're just anachronistic and encountering a world and technology that is two or three centuries removed from their own (by choice, by the way, given Japan's self isolation and the Samurais' rejection of the new tech. The only expertise Algren gives them is specific military knowledge that he has because of his job, rather than some inherent quality he has. Blood Diamond is, again, interesting, since Danny's role is, ultimately, merely to allow Solomon to tell his own story. It undercuts this by not showing Solomon tell his story, which falls into the trope of depicting African suffering, but not their voices. It also falls into a lot of traps of depicting Africa in general. There's a great video of Djimon Honsou reading "How not to write about Africa" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYVvEa3dSeU Watch it and count how many apply to Blood Diamond In short I think Zwick knows his viewpoint is limited without really understanding where the limits are or how to overcome them. The end result is well made, entertaining films whose hearts are absolutely in the right place, that are trying to challenge their cliches but that also fall into traps that he can't really spot.
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Jul 20, 2023 23:22
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The ninja vs samurai scene in The Last Samurai is weapons grade cinema. When Ujio yells at the end of that set piece? Yeah, that's the stuff Scorsese is talking about. [edit] vvv That's a good point too. teagone fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Jul 21, 2023 |
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Jul 20, 2023 23:29
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The Hollywood system would have forced Zwick to put a white male character in all his movies as a "POV character". No, I don't agree with this personally, but this is a documented reality of Hollywood during that period. This is not to excuse Zwick, I don't know anything about him or his motives, but I'm just saying that those movies would not have been released without those character. The script wouldn't have survived pre-production. The condemnation may lie on Hollywood here, or Zwick, or both.
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Jul 21, 2023 01:19
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I like all three movies to varying degrees too. It's just funny/interesting how Zwick became "that guy." Even Legends of the Fall almost dips into it for a second.
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Jul 21, 2023 04:51
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Yeah, unfortunately you just gotta put these things in context, and often people really are doing the best they think they can get away with in the circumstances they have. The focus changing more to Jake's kids, who are living specifically in a cultural hinterland because of their heritage and experiencing it in different ways, seems like a good way to mix it up and that's probably the idea. Both the Sea People and the returning human colonists are strange and alien to them yet they are tied to both, and have expectations and assumptions placed on them they need to figure out how to even understand, and quick.
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Jul 21, 2023 08:30
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Snowman_McK posted:The only expertise Algren gives them is specific military knowledge that he has because of his job, rather than some inherent quality he has. He has literal military knowledge of the kind of warfare coming to Japan, but also a kind of prescient cautionary knowledge of the future. Algren is basically anachronistic, like a sort of Vietnam vet sent back 100 years. He was a naive farm boy who signed up and was utterly broken and traumatized by the experience of war - by the horrors of the industrialized war machine generally, and by ethnic atrocity specifically. (The latter is what makes me say Vietnam vs some other conflict like WW1.) The movie centers the Meiji Restoration and the (failed) Satsuma Rebellion as this inflection point in Japan’s history that leads directly into the Imperial era, atrocities in China and Korea, utter devastation during WW2, etc. “The loss of Japan’s soul.” And Algren’s specific trauma is relevant because it’s almost like a time traveler attempting to stop Japan from making the same mistakes the rest of the industrial world did in the 20th century. “I am what happens when you follow the same path as America.” Which is why I think the “white savior” accusation is…sort of but not quite right. It’s not that Algren is especially skilled or important, and he barely changes the outcome. He doesn’t actually help Katsumoto succeed or inherit leadership like Jakesully. His only savior-ish impact is to validate Katsumoto’s worldview from the perspective of a man whose own life and culture, as warmongers and colonizers, is out of balance. The racism of the movie, in that sense, isn’t that Algren is the best samurai or whatever. It’s a kind of reductive Orientalism. The movie presents pre-industrial Japan as this simplistic, exotic, morally superior place where people live in bucolic harmony with nature, basic “noble savage” kind of poo poo. Which Avatar also clearly does, though at least the Na’vi are fictional.
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Jul 21, 2023 08:47
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Xealot posted:The racism of the movie, in that sense, isn’t that Algren is the best samurai or whatever. It’s a kind of reductive Orientalism. The movie presents pre-industrial Japan as this simplistic, exotic, morally superior place where people live in bucolic harmony with nature, basic “noble savage” kind of poo poo. Which Avatar also clearly does, though at least the Na’vi are fictional. Reminds me of a running theme of modern Orientalism that Asian countries are confusing and scary when they actually act like modern nations with militaries, politics, borders and ideologies, and should instead be harmlessly quaint exotic tourist traps that white people can treat like a country-sized theme park.
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Jul 21, 2023 08:58
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Talking about Avatar in terms of "white savior" is like administering a Bechdel Test. You don't need to go in and measure traits in order to ascertain whether it qualifies as an example of a trope. Avatar is racist because it uses race to 'naturalize' a society where leadership is decided based on skill at gator wrasslin'. Specifically, it present this as natural for other societies, because nobody watching the film would unironically accept this for themselves. We 'respect' the Navi practices while simultaneously treating them as deeply unserious, silly games.
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Jul 21, 2023 20:17
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Babylon continues to be the superior Avatar sequel.
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Jul 21, 2023 22:19
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Ok I know it sounds like a bad idea, but have we actually tried gator rasslin as an alternative to the electoral college? Maybe it could yield better results. At least all the 70+ are probably ruled out.
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Jul 21, 2023 23:12
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Also the samurai loved guns and were a brutal caste who oppressed the lower castes with impunity. Japanese movies often struggle with the reality of samurai rule, but western media go for a more romanticized version.
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Jul 23, 2023 03:16
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MonsieurChoc posted:Also the samurai loved guns and were a brutal caste who oppressed the lower castes with impunity. It works since Katsumoto is a zealot trying to make a point rather than a guy who simply can't figure out guns.
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Jul 23, 2023 08:12
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Talking about Avatar in terms of "white savior" is like administering a Bechdel Test. You don't need to go in and measure traits in order to ascertain whether it qualifies as an example of a trope. It's perfectly possible to respect and even admire difference without wishing to emulate it. Not everything needs to be universal. The more complicated question is, of course, that the Na'vi don't exist, they were created by Cameron heavily inspired by indigenous persons, and yet no indigenous group I know of decides leadership based on wrasslin'. It's strange to think about how two blockbuster franchises (Black Panther and Avatar) attempt to positively depict a non-western people while hallucinating this particular trial of leadership.
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Jul 26, 2023 16:27
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Mostly because it makes for great movie setpieces. Also settling conflicts via duel is a very, very old trope in the European imagination in particular.
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Jul 26, 2023 17:41
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Mostly because it makes for great movie setpieces. Yeah and Hamilton was just a big thing so everyone knows about pistol duels still being a thing 250 years ago here in the US too
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Jul 26, 2023 18:12
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Mostly because it makes for great movie setpieces. Yeah, “does anyone challenge the Black Panther to vigorous moderated debate on the current political challenges facing Wakanda!” doesn’t have the same impact. But also, clearly western imagination has trouble picturing a modern African or indigenous society whose practice isn’t filtered through a colonial lens. Like, some show of physical prowess set against all these tribal-looking accoutrements “feels right” for what they’re presenting. Would a magic sci-fi utopia do a spear fight on a waterfall for leadership? Probably not. But the pre-colonial context of sub-Saharan Africa dates back 500 years, and that’s the kind of thing westerners imagined happened back then.
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Jul 26, 2023 18:46
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i took the whole toruk makto thing not as something that only a select few were capable of accomplishing, but as an act of such danger and desperation that only a few people had been driven to that need and succeeded
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Jul 26, 2023 19:48
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Tenkaris posted:Yeah and Hamilton was just a big thing so everyone knows about pistol duels still being a thing 250 years ago here in the US too Informal pistol duels were going on in the US much more recently than that. See for example the excellent documentary series The Wire.
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Jul 26, 2023 23:37
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Making Glory in the 80s becomes a little more subversive when you take into account it was cry much in the era when civil war media was almost all either borderline lost cause propaganda (Gettysburg, ken burns) or out in the open lost cause propaganda (the sequel to gettysburg)
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Jul 27, 2023 14:22
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BiggestBatman posted:Making Glory in the 80s becomes a little more subversive when you take into account it was cry much in the era when civil war media was almost all either borderline lost cause propaganda (Gettysburg, ken burns) or out in the open lost cause propaganda (the sequel to gettysburg) This may surprise you, but Gettysburg came out in 1993, and its sequel in 2003. The Lost Cause probably has as many adherents/advocates as its ever had, they're just a lot less well spoken than Shelby Foote.
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Jul 27, 2023 22:23
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I need to rewatch The Seige by Zwick, as I haven't watched it since high school. In English we studied The Siege and another book on terrorism in 2001 in July or August, I think, which was a hell of a case of timing.
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Jul 28, 2023 13:06
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looks like scientists have discovered unobtanium, big jim keeps winning
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Aug 1, 2023 11:28
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Snowman_McK posted:This may surprise you, but Gettysburg came out in 1993, and its sequel in 2003. The Lost Cause probably has as many adherents/advocates as its ever had, they're just a lot less well spoken than Shelby Foote. So what you're saying is I'm right about Glory coming out during that time period?
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Aug 1, 2023 15:08
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BiggestBatman posted:So what you're saying is I'm right about Glory coming out during that time period? Sort of. Gettysburg is a 'both sides' type film whereas Gods and Generals is straight up Lost Cause apologia. Both directed by the same guy. He lurched one way on the issue in the intervening ten years.
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Aug 2, 2023 00:01
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Finally watched the movie, just caught up on the thread. A couple thoughts: 1. Eywa as Gaia seems to be the consensus around here, and rightly so, but etymologically I wonder if the name is a pig-latinization of "Way", in the sense of the Tao (thus reinforcing the religious sense of all-encompassing balance). If so, the sequel's subtitle could also be read as "the Eywa of Water", which would sort of point to Payakun as her spiritual successor as the (vengeful!) avatar of Nature... though there's also Kiri acting as avatar of the last film's Eywa. I like the idea that each new environment will entail a new corresponding "Eywa" 2. The biggest deposits of the McGuffin mineral unobtanium are located beneath the Tree of Souls, where the Na'vi commune with the planet. The ore was replaced as McGuffin by space whale-brain ambergris in the sequel (from one Eywa to the next), so both the initial context and continuity with its successor indicate that unobtanium is central to the "mind" of Eywa in some sense or other. And it occurred to me that since the bulk of both movies is about Jake's (and the kids') trials toward becoming Authentic natives of their new homes, it'd be thematically tidy and pretty funny if the magic rock below the Soul Tree literally represented "soul", like in the "racial je ne sais quoi" sense. "I initially assumed another race's skin with a profit motive and, now that I Love Them, I must contend with the cruel effects of my exploitation" is also the plot of the 80's racefaking comedy Soul Man, if we want a reference point other than District 9 3. There's gotta be a salient thematic tie between "Spider" and the RDA's many crab-bots? Based on point 1, I might guess is humans are also being assigned an element (I'd guess fire if not for the imminent Ash Na'Vi) and Spider is being primed as the avatar of that element's Eywa, much like his counterpart Kiri -- but SMG's question of WHO'S BUILDING THE SPIDER ROBOTS threw the absence of Spider's mother into sharper relief for me, especially since Spider being named Miles after his dad seems to invoke "unnatural" reproduction by mirroring the cloning that brought about Quarritch's resurrection. So the name might moreso function to draw parallels between modes of production
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Aug 5, 2023 02:23
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Great thoughts, love this especially though:mmmmalo posted:1. Eywa as Gaia seems to be the consensus around here, and rightly so, but etymologically I wonder if the name is a pig-latinization of "Way", in the sense of the Tao (thus reinforcing the religious sense of all-encompassing balance). If so, the sequel's subtitle could also be read as "the Eywa of Water", which would sort of point to Payakun as her spiritual successor as the (vengeful!) avatar of Nature...
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Aug 5, 2023 05:14
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'We came to conquer this world, but now I want to protect it' is a pretty common and fun theme in kids media. Ferngully, Iron Giant, Lawrence of Arabia, Transformers sometimes (Sky-Byte, a villain more heroic than many Autobots!) and of course the well known classic Butt Ugly Martians. It's a fun theme to play with! I do wonder how much there's to be said for capitalism and imperialism's influence there- in that whether you have an alien war machine enjoying Earth culture and hanging out with target demographic audience avatars, or a human audience avatar exploring a vaguely familiar exotic culture, often there's an at least implicit theme that the Other is at least a community that values its surroundings and often engages more with the protagonist, even with distrust and skepticism, than his own culture ever has. The whole fantasy is that of escaping and getting revenge on the society that the protagonist tends to already be alienated from, treated as an expendable tool of imperialism/profit that they barely even bother to pay enough. I suppose there's a more general theme of 'Outcast of one society becomes hero in another that takes him in', but still, Avatar if anything is on the nose with the scientist who openly hates his job to turn sentient beings into canned immortality serums, but there's nothing he can do about it but drink to numb the regret.
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Aug 5, 2023 06:02
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Butt Ugly Martians is Imperialism Vs Capitalism , since the title characters were seduced to abandon the Manifest Destiny creed of their people by the rampant consumerism and hedonism of Earth.
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Aug 5, 2023 06:23
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gently caress yeah, someone else knows what I'm talking about with that crappy cartoon I watched before it was on before Pokemon. It's also about lying to your boss and slacking off work.
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Aug 5, 2023 07:27
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Invader Zim should’ve murdered those stupid martians
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Aug 5, 2023 10:43
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I finally got around to watching this movie. I loved how subtlely evil the villains were. They hunt super intelligent space whales with rocket harpoons specifically targeting mothers with calfs so they can extract goo that makes rich people live forever directly from their brains. If you think about it, it suggests that humans and capitalism are maybe a bit bad? Really clever.
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Aug 14, 2023 16:18
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ThinkTank posted:I finally got around to watching this movie. I loved how subtlely evil the villains were. They hunt super intelligent space whales with rocket harpoons specifically targeting mothers with calfs so they can extract goo that makes rich people live forever directly from their brains. If you think about it, it suggests that humans and capitalism are maybe a bit bad? Really clever. The plan to blow up Eywa's wifi access spots in the last one wasn't cartoonishly evil enough, yeah.
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Aug 14, 2023 16:30
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It was also an unbearably horny movie and Sigourney Weaver eye loving a teenager young enough to be her grandson even if she was playing a teenaged alien made me very uncomfortable.
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Aug 14, 2023 16:45
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If you find Avatar Way of Water "unbearable horny" then I suggest becoming a Catholic priest, you'll fit right in.
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Aug 14, 2023 17:41
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ThinkTank posted:It was also an unbearably horny movie and Sigourney Weaver eye loving a teenager young enough to be her grandson even if she was playing a teenaged alien made me very uncomfortable. 
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Aug 14, 2023 18:06
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Was there a good reason Sigourney Weaver had to play her own daughter? It was an incredibly strange casting choice. She's 73 playing a 14 year old.
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Aug 14, 2023 18:10
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