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The Atomic Man-Boy posted:I’m partial to the thesis laid out in this post and in the paper. Ooh don't sleep on the Black Eagle Trust Fund, aka The Golden Lily Fund, aka the secret black bank consisting of looted Japanese gold after WW2 that MacArthur seized and was been used to fund illicit military and intelligence activities including Iran/Contra and, probably, 9/11. Thats right - there is a straight line between nascent US fascists like MacArthur and Charles Willoughby to 9/11, via Axis gold, and 9/11 was likely funded by the same illegal cash that it was designed to cover up.
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Aug 18, 2023 13:46
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Mola Yam posted:i don't get the implication there. what if the plane had missed or hit a wildly different floor I dunno, probably all just a weird coincidence 🙂
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Aug 18, 2023 14:31
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Trabisnikof posted:Pretty sure that in the last 30 years every single FBI agent who fired their weapon has been found to be justified according to the FBI. even the dance floor guy?
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Aug 18, 2023 14:44
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Ace of Baes posted:I dunno, probably all just a weird coincidence 🙂 It didn't really matter what floor the planes hit because they were both structurally compromised immediately. One building had mostly office space hit and the other had a sky lobby (which is why jet fuel exploded throughout the building) and mechanical floor. In that instance, the machinery caused a stairwell to be diverted, and the location of the stairwell, shielded by all of that heavy metal, is why a stairwell survived and those four guys were able to make it out. e: One thing that is genuinely fuzzy in the literature on the excavation of Ground Zero, aside from the jeans in the firetruck, is what happened to the vaults. I know the Secret Service was involved in trying to recover gold or something, but all of the details are incredibly vague. Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 15:01 on Aug 18, 2023 |
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Aug 18, 2023 14:57
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LIVE AMMO COSPLAY posted:Gotta wonder what plane #4 was meant for building 7 obviously
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Aug 18, 2023 15:07
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The thing about flights 77 and 93 that I'm puzzled over, that touches on Cheney's odd phone calls, the confusion caused by the war-games and exercises going on, the June order changing SOP for interception of wayward flights, is why lie if they authorized a shootdown and scrambled fighters? If they had downed flight 93, I'm sorry but air defence did their job. If they had tried to down 77 and 93, had been armed and authorized to engage them, air defence did their job. The only thing I can think of is that example of Pearl Harbour where it was embarrassing that so many AA shells had landed on Honolulu. In that case, they were still under attack by the Japanese and trying to defend the fleet, I think in those circumstances civilian casualties were unavoidable. They should have admitted that the Navy's shells, not Japanese bombs, killed all of the civilians on that day. Would the USAF downing flight 93 be different in any meaningful way? I would want to know that in the one case the Navy's guns were firing minutes into the first wave and caused significant Japanese losses in the second wave, and in the other that NORAD had aircraft in the air, even if both caused civilian casualties.
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Aug 18, 2023 15:35
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Because the optics of killing hundreds of American hostages would have been unacceptable. we have the benefit of hindsight, and I don't disagree with you. but that's why they had to hide that it had been at least on the table
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Aug 18, 2023 15:44
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i think the mechanics of exactly how the towers came down is basically the least important part of the whole thing. it's sorta similar to the fifty years of vigorous argument over who exactly took the shot at kennedy and from where, it's interesting no doubt but it's almost not relevant against the enormous amount of documentary evidence we have that makes it not really disputable that members of the government of the united states intentionally orchestrated this poo poo and pulled strings to make sure it happened the way they wanted. whether they had the buildings rigged to blow ahead of time or used remote controlled planes or what have you doesn't change the basic fact of who these people are and what they're responsible for, or what that means for the political systems as a whole building 7 is fuckin weird as poo poo though
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Aug 18, 2023 15:44
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They're arguments that specifically miss the forest for the trees. Whether there was a second shooter is irrelevant to the fact Oswald was very likely recruited by the CIA in conjunction with the Mafia to kill Kennedy, and was there to take the shot. He was a patsy and it was always intended for him to die after completing the mission to tie up any loose ends. Likewise for all the arguments about how exactly the towers were brought down. The Bush admin was behind it, even if they hadn't organized it directly but just trained and armed the group who eventually did. It suited their neocon agenda and gave a casus belli to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. The war in Afghanistan had the benefit of increasing Islamist tensions in the Chinese province of Xinjiang. Marenghi has issued a correction as of 15:55 on Aug 18, 2023 |
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Aug 18, 2023 15:51
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mdemone posted:Because the optics of killing hundreds of American hostages would have been unacceptable. Would it have been so hard to say "those people were dead already"? By the time those two flights were detected, everyone knew the planes were weapons. These were not people trying to get to Cuba or whatever like in the 70's.
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Aug 18, 2023 16:02
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Amy "Bloodbath" McGrath was gonna shoot down those airliners
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Aug 18, 2023 16:02
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Marenghi posted:They're arguments that specifically miss the forest for the trees. so youre saying not only did Bush did 9/11, Bush did the Uyghur genocide
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Aug 18, 2023 16:07
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my bony fealty posted:so youre saying not only did Bush did 9/11, Bush did the Uyghur genocide i mean,
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Aug 18, 2023 16:12
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Look up the current Uyghur activist and founder of Campaign for Uyghurs, Rushan Abbas, if you want a laugh. She's been one of main voices pushing the idea of a Chinese Uyghur genocide. But through the 80s and 90s she was a journalist for Radio Free Asia. Before taking a break to work in Guantanamo Bay as a CIA translator for the many Uyghur men imprisoned there during the War on Terror. Is it a coincidence Islamic Terrorist attacks in Xinjiang started to rise after the US invaded Afghanistan.
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Aug 18, 2023 16:14
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Building 7 official story makes sense to me. It got slammed by a huge amount of heavy debris and then a raging fire weakened its structure enough to cause collapse Everything ive read disputing this comes from laymen who consider themselves structural engineering experts from reading the internet a lot
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Aug 18, 2023 16:17
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Marenghi posted:Look up the current Uyghur activist and founder of Campaign for Uyghurs, Rushan Abbas, if you want a laugh. ETIM is just as much a US op as ISIL is (which is to say 100%)
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Aug 18, 2023 16:18
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paul_soccer12 posted:Building 7 official story makes sense to me. It got slammed by a huge amount of heavy debris and then a raging fire weakened its structure enough to cause collapse Yeah, the Marriott was cut in half, people underestimate how much damage was done to the whole area. One of those other bank buildings almost collapsed as well.
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Aug 18, 2023 16:22
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Frosted Flake posted:Would it have been so hard to say "those people were dead already"? everybody knowing that and trying to sell it politically are two different things, is all I'm saying
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Aug 18, 2023 16:23
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paul_soccer12 posted:ETIM is just as much a US op as ISIL is (which is to say 100%) Most ops disguised as legitimate independence movements are generally easy to spot by if they have an NGO Washington. Ukraine was an obvious one that eventually paid off. From the end of WW2 to the end of the USSR the US funded a lot of Banderist within the USA to create an independence movement. ISIL are a bit more covert because their funding and training comes through back channels.
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Aug 18, 2023 16:36
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Marenghi posted:Most ops disguised as legitimate independence movements are generally easy to spot by if they have an NGO Washington. Ukraine was an obvious one that eventually paid off. From the end of WW2 to the end of the USSR the US funded a lot of Banderist within the USA to create an independence movement. I think it was an FF post in Ukraine thread that detailed the differences between the rose revolution in Georgia and the maidan coup re: having an ideologically motivated hardcore far right militant wing ready to employ when the peaceful student, etc. groups (created by US NGOs) aren't enough to get the goods, and the differences in outcomes between the two.
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Aug 18, 2023 16:45
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Jumping around a bit but lol remember this https://twitter.com/Cail0n_/status/1639086677120503808
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Aug 18, 2023 16:46
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"Balochistan insurgents" was going to be the next big thing but Imran Khan getting ousted means they can keep it under their hat for now.
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Aug 18, 2023 16:48
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my bony fealty posted:Ooh don't sleep on the Black Eagle Trust Fund, aka The Golden Lily Fund, aka the secret black bank consisting of looted Japanese gold after WW2 that MacArthur seized and was been used to fund illicit military and intelligence activities including Iran/Contra and, probably, 9/11. MacArthur and Ollie North are popular. There's no need to cover their involvement in anything. it's like how the theory about 9/11 being a way to cover up the "covert economic war against the Soviet Union" is weird. it was the end of history, that poo poo was considered badass. The IMF was openly doing structural adjustment programs around the world by 2001. 9/11 did kill the anti-globalization movement in the US. That milieu may have had some concern about new economic war revelations maybe? seems like sort of stretch to blow up four buildings to stop some anarchists. Marenghi posted:Most ops disguised as legitimate independence movements are generally easy to spot by if they have an NGO Washington. Ukraine was an obvious one that eventually paid off. From the end of WW2 to the end of the USSR the US funded a lot of Banderist within the USA to create an independence movement. The US ability to identify and cultivate already existing sympathetic forces in other countries shouldn't be underestimated. I'm probably a bit influenced by rereading the Jakarta Method, but Bevins basically shows how Kennedy's innovation was allying with and training local elites to do the mass killings that the US had previously done directly You can even see some of those proxy or wanna be proxy forces get pissed off when they don't get as much support as they like. That's the government in Kyiv right now complaining about weapons. When the TPLF push towards Addis got turned around, some of their officials criticized the US for implying support that didn't materialize. Syrian contra supporters still sometimes say that the US is pro-Assad because there was never a mass bombing campaign by the US against the Syrian government
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Aug 18, 2023 16:50
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Frosted Flake posted:The only thing I can think of is that example of Pearl Harbour where it was embarrassing that so many AA shells had landed on Honolulu. In that case, they were still under attack by the Japanese and trying to defend the fleet, I think in those circumstances civilian casualties were unavoidable. They should have admitted that the Navy's shells, not Japanese bombs, killed all of the civilians on that day. meaningful way?
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Aug 18, 2023 16:50
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gradenko_2000 posted:"Balochistan insurgents" was going to be the next big thing but Imran Khan getting ousted means they can keep it under their hat for now. always good to keep a few of those around if there is a need down the line
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Aug 18, 2023 16:51
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https://twitter.com/0ddette/status/1692150913501188139?s=20
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Aug 18, 2023 17:29
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gradenko_2000 posted:"Balochistan insurgents" was going to be the next big thing but Imran Khan getting ousted means they can keep it under their hat for now. gonna laugh when it turns out the "tribal people try" YouTube channel is a CIA op
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Aug 18, 2023 17:32
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mawarannahr posted:hearing about this for the first time and I'm mad I got a book on it a few months ago when discussion came up. The US Army was in charge of air defence in Hawaii. They had just had a major exercise and were on leave on Dec 7. Their crews were not in barracks, and their antiaircraft guns and ammunition was locked up or taken apart for maintenance. The US Navy battleships in Pearl Harbour included many WW1 types that had not yet undergone their full modernization and installation of high angle secondary armament under director control. Which is a long way to say their smaller guns were designed to mostly shoot at torpedo boats and not airplanes. While they could fire timed fuzes to burst in midair, without director control or the later radar control, it was up to gun crews to set the fuzes to burst at the right altitude. This is obviously prone to error especially using visual rangefinders, or estimating with binoculars. When the first wave attacked Pearl Harbour, the Navy used ammunition in the ready lockers near the guns when the ships went to action stations. They were actually pretty quick in getting into the fight, within I think five minutes or so for all of the ships to start firing. What they weren't was accurate. Gun crews started blazing away before their ships were fully manned, which is to say without their fire being directed. We'd say the guns were under local control. Crews picked their own targets and set their own range, estimating range and altitude at the gun, rather than observers in the spotting tops (crows nest) using special ranging equipment and mechanical computers. In these circumstances, most crews either made ranging errors when setting fuzes or did not set timers at all. Their shells were set to explode on impact. Only, if they did not directly impact the place - which would be exceptionally unlikely even using radar - they would go off when they hit the ground. Because the Japanese first wave included torpedo bombers that were flying at mast top hight, much of the fire from ships along battleship row, the target for these torpedo bombers, was almost horizontal. As a result thousands of rounds of ammunition of all calibres went flying in all directions, not only causing many, many friendly fire casualties within the base, but also landing all over Oahu. These shells killed dozens and wounded hundreds. The Pearl Harbour memorial now admits that: "Perhaps the most tragic civilian casualties come from those killed by "friendly fire." Many of the 5-inch anti-aircraft rounds fired at the Japanese aircraft did not detonate properly and landed in civilian areas around Pearl Harbor and Honolulu, exploding on contact with the ground. Many of the civilian fire departments had deployed to Hickam Field and Pearl Harbor to fight fires there and were not available to fight the many fires caused by falling rounds in civilian areas." and lists their names,  Now here's the last thing. You can see many of those names are Japanese, due to the large Japanese and Nisei population of Hawaii at the time. The US government used that for propaganda to claim that the Japanese were so bloodthirsty and indiscriminate that they bombed "their own" civilians in Honolulu. So, at once they attributed the casualties to the Japanese, which was covered up until at least the 1960's I believe, and also associated these Americans, killed by their own Navy, with the enemy.
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Aug 18, 2023 17:58
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Atrocious Joe posted:MacArthur and Ollie North are popular. There's no need to cover their involvement in anything. It's not about covering up involvement, it's about having access to an enormous slush fund for covert operations without congressional oversight or funding. Drug trade, arms sales, Nazi gold, sex trafficking, they've got it all.
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Aug 18, 2023 17:59
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"All types had some ready ammunition at the guns, in accordance with their type directives. Battleships and Cruisers, 15 rounds per gun for two guns for the 5-inch anti-aircraft battery and 300 rounds per gun for half of the .50 caliber battery. The Destroyers present all had .50 caliber ammunition available and some 5-inch ammunition, depending on tests that were underway at the moment. Although a battery condition of readiness for ships had not been designated from the Naval Base Defense Plan, the first batteries opened fire less than two minutes after the attack was initiated. All batteries, except those on ships undergoing overhaul, had taken up the fire within approximately seven minutes after the attack was initiated." "Although the Japanese launched their initial attack as a surprise, battleship ready machine guns opened fire at once and were progressively augmented by the remaining antiaircraft battery as all hands were promptly called to general quarters. That all ships present opened fire with commendable promptness is attested by the record. Actually, as stated above, ships opened fire immediately with machine guns, bringing down two, and damaging others, of the first wave of attacking torpedo planes. Within an estimated average time of under five minutes, practically all battleship antiaircraft batteries were firing; cruisers were firing all antiaircraft batteries within an average time of about 4 minutes; and destroyers, though opening up with machine guns almost immediately, averaged seven minutes in bringing all antiaircraft guns into action." "On the occasion of the treacherous surprise attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, battleship ready guns opened fire at once. They were progressively augmented as the rest of the antiaircraft battery was manned as all battleships went to General Quarters with commendable promptness. This resulted in an early and great volume of antiaircraft fire. Considering all the circumstances, including the necessity for local control in the early stages of the attack, the control of fire was gratifyingly good as attested by the fifteen to seventeen enemy planes which were brought down. That such an antiaircraft fire could be inaugurated and sustained in spite of the difficulties resulting from early damage by torpedoes and bombs and great and menacing oil fires is a tribute to the courage, constancy, efficiency and resourcefulness of the officers and men. Not only were they maintaining a sustained and aggressive fire whenever the enemy threatened, but they were engaged in valiant efforts to save the ships, prevent their capsizing and fighting large and menacing oil fires, enveloped in dense clouds of smoke. Severe structural damage and flooded magazines made replenishment of ammunition a serious problem, in overcoming which great courage and ingenuity was exhibited." "The need for adequate splinter protection for topside personnel was vividly demonstrated. For example, the protection afforded by the King Board bulkheads provided considerable protection so far as it went. These bulkheads were pitted by many .50 caliber bullets and fragments. In no case were the bulkheads which were inspected holed. However, the protection afforded was inadequate. There should be gun shields, or better still, gun turrets. In the case of the Nevada, a bomb hit the boat deck and wiped out most of the personnel because no protection was afforded from inboard." I think the official report lowballed just how much ammunition was fired, because the report from the USS Sacramento alone says: US Navy Report of Japanese Raid on Pearl Harbor, Enclosure E, USS Sacramento posted:At 0757 sounded general quarters. 0800 all stations manned and ready. 0802 Commenced anti-aircraft machine gun (.50 caliber) fire. "Few readers are likely to have heard about this American massacre of their own citizens (the amount of shells that landed on civilians during Pearl Harbour) and there are two main reasons for this. The first is of course that no nation wishes to advertise the fact that it has inadvertently been slaughtering its own people. This explains why official websites and tourist information still to this day give the impression that the people killed in Honolulu and the surrounding district were victims of Japanese bombs, rather than American artillery. There is another reason though for the endurance of the myth and it is that, to put it bluntly, nobody likes to spoil a good story." "Most of the civilians killed during the attack on Pearl Harbor were of Japanese ancestry and had obviously Japanese names. There was something so deliciously ironic about the supposed fact that the Japanese had bombed and killed their own people, that this was bound to become the definitive versions of the events in Honolulu. Something about the idea caught the imagination and tended to show the Japanese, who were by now the enemy, in a bad light. These people were so ruthless that they didn’t even care that they were killing other Japanese! It was a neat little bit of propaganda which had the added advantage of serving to disguise what had actually taken place. In a stroke, the bumbling Americans who fired on their own side had been replaced with an enemy who were even merciless to their own people. Little wonder that the fake version of the affair has been remembered in preference to the truth." "Before leaving the subject of the attack on Pearl Harbor, we reflect upon the contrasting casualty figures for the two sides. The Americans lost 2,335 military personnel that day, compared with the 64 Japanese personnel who died. Nearly seventy American civilians were also killed, almost all of them by their own side. The American navy had managed to kill more of their own citizens that day than they had enemy airman and sailors."
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Aug 18, 2023 18:00
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FDR did Pearl Harbor
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Aug 18, 2023 18:23
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me in the maret school library: woah broah weird vibes
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Aug 18, 2023 18:32
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fanfic insert posted:even the dance floor guy? so I was thinking of a 2013 article, so before dancing fbi guy. quote:After contradictory stories emerged about an F.B.I. agent’s killing last month of a Chechen man in Orlando, Fla., who was being questioned over ties to the Boston Marathon bombing suspects, the bureau reassured the public that it would clear up the murky episode. but if I had to guess, I bet they went with "off duty, doesn't count for our stats"
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Aug 18, 2023 18:36
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fanfic insert posted:FDR did Pearl Harbor Prescott Bush did Pearl Harbor
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Aug 18, 2023 18:54
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Trabisnikof posted:so I was thinking of a 2013 article, so before dancing fbi guy. they 100% killed todashev to cover up the tamerlane tsarnaev FBI links sort of like how obama killed 16yo abdulrahman alawlaki to keep him from revealing anything he knew about his father's security state links
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Aug 18, 2023 18:58
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https://twitter.com/eleevn/status/1692403274358591911?t=wKCcp8-cqSB-1NJEl9EmSw&s=19
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Aug 19, 2023 07:19
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"Synthetic" telepathy- don't worry we can't actually read your minds, never mind that ad that showed up based on something you only thought and hadn't yet expressed in any other way, we just ah got really good at doing algorithms and stuff... 
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Aug 19, 2023 11:44
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gradenko_2000 posted:https://twitter.com/eleevn/status/1692403274358591911?t=wKCcp8-cqSB-1NJEl9EmSw&s=19 oh?
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Aug 19, 2023 12:12
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Dokapon Findom posted:"Synthetic" telepathy- don't worry we can't actually read your minds, never mind that ad that showed up based on something you only thought and hadn't yet expressed in any other way, we just ah got really good at doing algorithms and stuff... I’m glad someone verbalized this because from time to time it happens and i dont know what to make of it
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Aug 19, 2023 12:44
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Dokapon Findom posted:"Synthetic" telepathy- don't worry we can't actually read your minds, never mind that ad that showed up based on something you only thought and hadn't yet expressed in any other way, we just ah got really good at doing algorithms and stuff... Lol all the poo poo about "well, your phones don't really listen to you, it's just making inferences based on metadata" was so obviously a loving lie
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Aug 19, 2023 12:55
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