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90s Cringe Rock posted:I've just been assuming that space non-binary is still sort of a generic umbrella for genders outside the... wait, is Aspen non-ternary? There are 3 or 4 primary genders depending on how you define it. Male Female Brennan "It" (Universal Friends) Then the "NB" or whatever you'd call that for more than 2 base genders. Aspen appears to identify with this.
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Aug 27, 2023 21:09
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Isn't aspen a tree person?
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Aug 27, 2023 22:40
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Affi posted:Isn't aspen a tree person? aspen is from a country (arborea) that's basically the gaians from SMAC. they're all still regular humans, they just have a very nature-focused culture
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Aug 27, 2023 23:26
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I think the Arboreans are just humans who grew up in these countries of trees built over the ocean? They're all human, just with minor genetic differences like the DIVR gene, like any coherent coherent population group. And yeah, I did see that conversation about the genders, but it just kind of tells us how they think of gender. I did think it's kind of silly that you'd ever end up with a a society where people are confused at the concept of having two genders, though - the vast majority of humans are still sexually dimorphic, so it should be easy to understand how cultures would recognize two genders, even if gender itself is a social construct and there's no reason to demand people adhere to specific gender roles. I get the point that was being made ("gender is a social construct and social norms can change, so there's no reason you couldn't have more genders"), but there's a difference between "being a social construct" and "being arbitrary," and it's not exactly hard to figure out why human societies would have recognized two genders in the past. Even in this setting, IIRC men/women make up 85% of humans. I generally like the story's take on a distant future, though. The only part that is a bit iffy to me is that the story correctly recognizes that "true AI" is probably impossible, but I think it's possible to create AI significantly more effective/"reasonable" than the one in the story. It is a very novel and (comparatively) realistic take on the concept of a "rogue AI," though. It's also strange (though not completely unbelievable) that a future society would clamp down on the creation and use of mobile devices like smart phones, while still having prison slave labor. It seems like the same profit motive resulting in the latter would also prevent the former. Most other stuff (like social concepts and taboos changing) makes sense, since nothing about those things directly conflicts with the material interests of the wealthy.
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Aug 27, 2023 23:27
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From a space colony with a culture heavily focused on agriculture (Arborian), so a tree person in that sense, but he is not part plant. Texas aside, the story isn't really western enough to be Trigun.
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Aug 27, 2023 23:30
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Einander posted:From a space colony with a culture heavily focused on agriculture (Arborian), so a tree person in that sense, but he is not part plant. Texas aside, the story isn't really western enough to be Trigun. They live on, build and maintain gene-edited-tree-based floating islands swimming on earth's oceans, which are largely credited with saving the whole place from runaway climate catastrophe (to some extent, anyway).
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Aug 27, 2023 23:48
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Ytlaya posted:And yeah, I did see that conversation about the genders, but it just kind of tells us how they think of gender. I did think it's kind of silly that you'd ever end up with a a society where people are confused at the concept of having two genders, though - the vast majority of humans are still sexually dimorphic, so it should be easy to understand how cultures would recognize two genders, even if gender itself is a social construct and there's no reason to demand people adhere to specific gender roles. I get the point that was being made ("gender is a social construct and social norms can change, so there's no reason you couldn't have more genders"), but there's a difference between "being a social construct" and "being arbitrary," and it's not exactly hard to figure out why human societies would have recognized two genders in the past. Even in this setting, IIRC men/women make up 85% of humans. If it helps, consider colors. All the colors are 'real' in that they correspond to wavelengths of light, but which particular colors get names and mental representations is not something given by the world. There are languages without a distinction between violet and purple, ancient languages tend to have no blue (and Russian still doesn't, it has two 'blue's), and orange AFAIK literally only exists because of the fruit. Categories are just questions of use. You'd just need to there be to enough of a social reason to make the distininction, and like the fedex arrow they'd emerge.
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Aug 27, 2023 23:49
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Griddle of Love posted:They live on, build and maintain gene-edited-tree-based floating islands swimming on earth's oceans, which are largely credited with saving the whole place from runaway climate catastrophe (to some extent, anyway). Oh, thanks for the correction. I remembered mention of them floating and assumed they meant zero G.
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Aug 28, 2023 00:03
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SS81: Major props to Andrzej for getting into the hero track at their high school as an B-Rank Cudgel Meister. That's the exact sort of class where a B-Rank would be at the worst disadvantage, so he must have been super good in the admission exams. hosed up that Lute lost his eye. Brain Candy posted:If it helps, consider colors. All the colors are 'real' in that they correspond to wavelengths of light, but which particular colors get names and mental representations is not something given by the world. There are languages without a distinction between violet and purple, ancient languages tend to have no blue (and Russian still doesn't, it has two 'blue's), and orange AFAIK literally only exists because of the fruit. Yeah, but gender isn't strictly "a category for a subset of physical characteristics" like color is (which I guess would be the way to apply your color analogy here, where physical characteristics::wavelengths of light?). It's basically a social/cultural construct of identity. There isn't really a continuous range for the underlying characteristics, where genders are defined by a subset of said range. I can tell you how violet is defined, even if the range of characteristics it's defined by is completely arbitrary. But the way gender is defined in our society isn't completely arbitrary. Unnecessary, sure, but the source of it being in sexual dimorphism is pretty easy to understand, even if someone lives in a society that allows for a wider range of gender expression. Even if gender is no longer correlated with body type in this setting, the concept of "gender was once defined by sexually dimorphic body types" is still easy to understand. One possible explanation I can think of (but I don't know if it's the case) is if humans have actually been genetically modified in this setting so that they're no longer noticeably/significantly sexually dimorphic (sort of like the reveal that most humans now have different nails), and/or no longer directly procreate. In that situation gender would genuinely be completely divorced from a person's body, and a past society having two genders actually would seem completely arbitrary. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Aug 28, 2023 |
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Aug 28, 2023 00:33
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SS68 public: Am I reading it right that Earth's Artonan translator is intentionally bad?
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Aug 28, 2023 01:03
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Kyoujin posted:SS68 public: Am I reading it right that Earth's Artonan translator is intentionally bad? That's the impression us Patreon readers had for that chapter too.
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Aug 28, 2023 01:18
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SupSup 81 That was fun. Honestly I think I would enjoy a dozen chapters of just Alden fitting in to hero highschool. SupSup manages to be fun to read even when it's slow paced because of all the little details that get written into each chapter.Kyoujin posted:SS68 public: Am I reading it right that Earth's Artonan translator is intentionally bad? That's the impression I got, but (ss 68/RR)it seems odd that it would be designed like that since it's clear Artonans use it to talk to humans fairly often. It'd have to be designed to just translate badly when it was a human speaking it, which would be weird. Also Alden did learn his Artonan from being trapped on a moon with a kid for months, so it's possible his Artonan is a bit unusual. Or maybe Artonans deliberately use a different dialect/formal style for talking to resource worlds. Bremen fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Aug 28, 2023 |
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Aug 28, 2023 01:42
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SupSup 68 Joe (and Alis and several others) did comment that Alden's Artonan had gotten a lot better in his time on Thegund. He did pick up a Thegund accent, probably from the soap operas for children which were maybe made there and Kibby who grew up on Thegund through. Nitrousoxide fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Aug 28, 2023 |
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Aug 28, 2023 01:48
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Ytlaya posted:Yeah, but gender isn't strictly "a category for a subset of physical characteristics" like color is (which I guess would be the way to apply your color analogy here, where physical characteristics::wavelengths of light?). The point was that color, despite mapping quite well onto something we can measure isn't actually the thing you measure. Colors are a mental model; blue just doesn't exist in ancient Hebrew but that didn't mean that everyone was colorblind or that the wavelength wasn't present. This is to say categories are alway constructed and since the are used linquistically, the are also social. We use them freely, we speak and write as if the wavelength of light is actually blue. But the wavelength existed before the category, blue is the idenification of something that seems to meet a classifciation. When we say something is blue, we mean 'it appears to be blue to me' not 'the light reflected from it matches a certain wavelength'. It's why people can disagree about colors even if they have no mental or physical defect without anyone really being in error. So when you say Ytlaya posted:I can tell you how violet is defined, you're missing that you can't actually do this in certain languages, because there's no word for violet. You can talk about wavelengths all you want, but the category of identification in the minds of your listener won't be there.
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Aug 28, 2023 02:00
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SS81: The prospect that instructor Rao doesn't actually understand artonan and simply uses the system to fake it endlessly amuses me. Not surprised it came up, but the solution "call the cops" on a possible dv incident between a lesbian couple absolutely made me inwardly cringe
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Aug 28, 2023 02:42
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(SupSup 81) Wow, if the luck chain was so big that the backlash period resulted in Lute losing his eye, then it's amazing that they're just facing bad PR and getting sued. Like, at that point, it's hard to imagine only one person was that badly injured. Anesidoran emergency response is real good, I guess? Also makes Lute's conviction that the backlash would take his fingers way more grim. Also, the fact that Alden swears with "on the Mother" is funny when the Mother is someone he met. "Why in the name of the nice tutorial lady" is a funny thing to say, and I can't imagine he picked up the habit from Kibby when she's still at the watching-the-goodchild-genre age. Also, the System at WindSong was apparently were deliberately not translating swears. Where did you learn this, Alden. Am I forgetting a point where Joe said it, or did Alden make it up himself? Bremen posted:SupSup 81 That was fun. Honestly I think I would enjoy a dozen chapters of just Alden fitting in to hero highschool. SupSup manages to be fun to read even when it's slow paced because of all the little details that get written into each chapter. (SupSup 68) No, the fact that there's normally no issue with Avowed and Artonans speaking is actually evidence that the Earth System's Artonan translator is bad somehow. Most Artonans aren't going to be speaking to Avowed before they summon them, so all the translation would normally be happening through non-Earth Systems. There's no reason to individualize the translators, so if it's fine everywhere else then it's hard to imagine that's not deliberate.
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Aug 28, 2023 03:01
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Einander posted:(SupSup 81) Wow, if the luck chain was so big that the backlash period resulted in Lute losing his eye, then it's amazing that they're just facing bad PR and getting sued. Like, at that point, it's hard to imagine only one person was that badly injured. Anesidoran emergency response is real good, I guess? Also makes Lute's conviction that the backlash would take his fingers way more grim. SupSup 81 Artonans call Artona I (the planet, not the System) "Mother". Joe calls it "Mother" a few times. So it seems like a pretty normal Artonan phrase. Edit: An example from Lesson One quote:“I’m sure I said children in need of instruction, but your version will do. The initial idea of selecting Avowed from resource worlds was a product of minds who would view your existence as a great gift. For our planets—we only had the Mother and Artona II back then—and your own. It was, and is, an arrogant point of view. One centered on Artonan needs and our assumptions about what other species should value.” He shrugged. “But that particular point of view is the only one of the common four that assumes Avowed should both have extraordinary power and be given all the tools they need to use it as a matter of course.” Nitrousoxide fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Aug 28, 2023 |
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Aug 28, 2023 03:11
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Einander posted:(SupSup 68) No, the fact that there's normally no issue with Avowed and Artonans speaking is actually evidence that the Earth System's Artonan translator is bad somehow. Most Artonans aren't going to be speaking to Avowed before they summon them, so all the translation would normally be happening through non-Earth Systems. There's no reason to individualize the translators, so if it's fine everywhere else then it's hard to imagine that's not deliberate. Except (SupSup 68)Artonans do visit Earth. They maintain a lot of the magic stuff and work at magical hospitals and similar. If the system translated normal Artonan especially oddly people would have noticed. So it seems likely it was something specific to Alden causing it.
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Aug 28, 2023 03:25
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Patrick Spens posted:Really don't understand the obvious desire people have for no one to read stories they don't like. but bro if you like those stories you're wrong
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Aug 28, 2023 04:17
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SupSup 68: I think that the translator isn’t bad on purpose, it’s just that Alden isn’t a native speaker of Artonan so he’s unintentionally phrasing things weirdly or using words that are just slightly incorrect. Remember that his immersive crash course in the language was being trapped alone with a child for six months, with no translation abilities whatsoever, forced to learn everything from context. The System translates everything in real-time, so it presumably has a lot of complicated predictive things going on, and what I think happened is that Alden had learned an unusual word for “moon” that a native speaker would not have used in that context, which the System then choked on.
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Aug 28, 2023 08:22
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SupSup 68: If, as the Artonians, you want to slow a resource worlds comprehension and understanding of the Artonian knowledge base, having the "default" translation be a bit off when it's not a Artonian government vistor makes sense. We know Systems can be selective about the topics they translate (see the magical lockout at Leafsong) so it playing funny games with the translation space makes sense. We also know the Artonians have a rough "development plan" for Earth, with Stuarts offhand comment about how it's too early for the Avowed to take over the government yet.
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Aug 28, 2023 08:32
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Bremen posted:Except (SupSup 68)Artonans do visit Earth. They maintain a lot of the magic stuff and work at magical hospitals and similar. If the system translated normal Artonan especially oddly people would have noticed. So it seems likely it was something specific to Alden causing it. Still supsup 68 but this isn't spoiling anything new. They are probably translating it stupidly to maintain the illusion that humans are a backwards race. If they learn artonan from the system or from artonan teachers and start going around using dumbed down language when interacting with wizards and other species and they consequently appear dumb then that is to the artonans benefit.
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Aug 28, 2023 13:50
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Nothingtoseehere posted:SupSup 68: If, as the Artonians, you want to slow a resource worlds comprehension and understanding of the Artonian knowledge base, having the "default" translation be a bit off when it's not a Artonian government vistor makes sense. We know Systems can be selective about the topics they translate (see the magical lockout at Leafsong) so it playing funny games with the translation space makes sense. Just a warning, but I think you accidentally included a patreon spoiler in the second paragraph. Affi posted:Still supsup 68 but this isn't spoiling anything new. I mean, that seems like a lot of work for an unclear benefit, and it wouldn't really work out since it would mean the humans duplicate the speech of the Artonan wizards they interact with, which one assumes is going to be viewed as the more "classy" speech than the non-magical Artonans because of their caste system. My guess is it's the opposite - Alden is using the Artonan used by non-wizards, with a Thegundese dialect, and the system isn't used to translating it. He mostly learned it from children's TV shows and Kibby, who was a wizard by talent but not raised in the same environment. That would also explain why the system has trouble with it - I doubt many, if any at all, non-magical Artonans have ever been to Earth - but actual Artonans seem to not even find it odd. So if anything Alden is probably speaking, let's call it the "plebian" version, and the rest of the humans are speaking the formal one. If the wizard/non-wizard divide has been a thing in Artonan society for a long time, which seems likely, there could be considerably dialect variance. Bremen fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Aug 28, 2023 |
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Aug 28, 2023 17:05
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I really doubt the super-intelligent magical AI that has figured out how to translate hundreds of unrelated Earth languages in perfectly sensible ways is struggling with a rural Artonan dialect, especially when Alden was able to learn it in half a year as a regular dude.
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Aug 28, 2023 17:36
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Nitrousoxide posted:I really doubt the super-intelligent magical AI that has figured out how to translate hundreds of unrelated Earth languages in perfectly sensible ways is struggling with a rural Artonan dialect, especially when Alden was able to learn it in half a year as a regular dude. It might be deliberate. Summoning avowed is something of a status symbol; if anything wizards probably want their fancy help to sound all cultured rather than "dumb."
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Aug 28, 2023 17:39
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A big flaming stink posted:SS81: SS81: it does raise an interesting point that the appropriate choice is going to depend on where the situation is occurring - calling the cops would be fine where I'm from but less so in places like Dubai or Uganda or the US. So you'll have all these barely out of uni kids with their own cultural backgrounds (maybe from the island, maybe from anywhere else) taking that baggage to a random city and making calls in stressful situations like that. Yikes! Also ss 68: the idea that the system can't translate well is just absurd to me. It translates everything else perfectly, and none of the artonans Alden has talked to have commented on his extremely weird patterns of speech. It seems obvious that it's a choice, we just don't know why it's making that choice. Maybe it just doesn't like Alden!
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Aug 28, 2023 20:14
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you know what I haven't Patreoned or anything but my vote is (SS68) Alden just has the Translate My Artonian Speech option set to "oldey-timey" or something similarly ridiculous
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Aug 28, 2023 20:26
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DACK FAYDEN posted:you know what I haven't Patreoned or anything but my vote is (SS68) Alden just has the Translate My Artonian Speech option set to "oldey-timey" or something similarly ridiculous Prank by Mother?
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Aug 28, 2023 20:34
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OddObserver posted:Prank by Mother?
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Aug 28, 2023 21:03
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Foxfire_ posted:SS68 Revenge from Earth Contract after he sassed it about bag storage
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Aug 28, 2023 21:15
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Bog Standard Isekai p3ch20 So the spoiler about dropping Scarred One for Glasser was true. I still liked the chapter and Hogg celebrating loudly in the temple despite the pissed off priest went a long way towards making me like him again. I still think the last arc should have been trimmed down and the Tawna manipulations with no one standing up for Bring went on too long. I'll keep following it for now and see where it goes.
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Aug 28, 2023 21:23
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Kyoujin posted:Bog Standard Isekai p3ch20 So the spoiler about dropping Scarred One for Glasser was true. I still liked the chapter and Hogg celebrating loudly in the temple despite the pissed off priest went a long way towards making me like him again. same, and also please threadban the dipshit who spoiled it for no reason
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Aug 28, 2023 21:50
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Kyoujin posted:Bog Standard Isekai p3ch20 So the spoiler about dropping Scarred One for Glasser was true. I still liked the chapter and Hogg celebrating loudly in the temple despite the pissed off priest went a long way towards making me like him again. The last 7 chapters have been a series of "twists" that large chunks of this story no longer matter. Or do matter again. Or nope, don't matter after all. It sucks that we were told how removing your class like that could leave you with Child for a year, but instead Brin just instantly gets the best possible class for him. Plus, we have access to the main character's thoughts! The payoff for the author withholding them is just whiplash.
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Aug 28, 2023 23:21
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Ytlaya posted:Yeah, but gender isn't strictly "a category for a subset of physical characteristics" like color is (which I guess would be the way to apply your color analogy here, where physical characteristics::wavelengths of light?). It's basically a social/cultural construct of identity. There isn't really a continuous range for the underlying characteristics, where genders are defined by a subset of said range. I can tell you how violet is defined, even if the range of characteristics it's defined by is completely arbitrary. But the way gender is defined in our society isn't completely arbitrary. Unnecessary, sure, but the source of it being in sexual dimorphism is pretty easy to understand, even if someone lives in a society that allows for a wider range of gender expression. Even if gender is no longer correlated with body type in this setting, the concept of "gender was once defined by sexually dimorphic body types" is still easy to understand. gender and sex arent as clearly and inextricably linked as you are presenting them to be and this is immediately apparent if you look at literally any part of human history. gender is a fully separate and distinct thing from sex. a society that has moved beyond assigning gender based on sex and which has moved away from a binary system of gender would necessarily also over time grow to be less understanding of strict binary assignations.
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Aug 29, 2023 01:36
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Enkor posted:The last 7 chapters have been a series of "twists" that large chunks of this story no longer matter. Or do matter again. Or nope, don't matter after all. It sucks that we were told how removing your class like that could leave you with Child for a year, but instead Brin just instantly gets the best possible class for him. That last bit is just egregious, especially because no part of Brin’s inner monologue indicated that this was going to happen, despite events strongly implying that this was something decided on in advance. Brin and Hogg clearly have already had a conversation about this such that Brin can comment on it obliquely and Hogg knows exactly what he’s talking about. The midwife who could verify that Brin was in good enough shape to get rid of his magical healing abilities was already at the temple, as if this were a prearranged thing. It felt like I’d skipped a chapter where this had been set up. Turning this into yet another plot twist did nothing but rob the reader of what could have been a legitimately interesting scene where Brin grappled with his new personality before ultimately beating it and making the rational decision to abandon it, but only once he was fully healed. Then this big last-minute declaration of how he’d defeated the class and didn’t need to switch after all could actually be an emotional moment instead of just a random declaration in the middle of the street. Also, Glasser being the better way to get Illusionist is so loving lazy. All of these constant twists and turns wound up at exactly the best outcome for Brin, with no consequences at all. So much wasted potential.
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Aug 29, 2023 01:47
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blastron posted:
Brin was told outright to get a precursor class to Illusionist, and would have received better info had the class selection not been rushed as it was. Not sure how you call that lazy. The gods being involved probably rigged things, the fact they went to do this at a temple when you could just break your oath anywhere is sorta a hint. From what it sounds like he went through during his Scarred class, you must have a wonderful life to have avoided mental trauma. That is not something of no consequence. All that being said I disliked most of the last story arc for a few different reasons.
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Aug 29, 2023 01:59
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Kalas posted:From what it sounds like he went through during his Scarred class, you must have a wonderful life to have avoided mental trauma. That is not something of no consequence. (Bog Standard) I will be surprised if any part of this whole Scarred One thing is emotionally reflected on at all, shocked if it’s treated as a traumatic experience, and utterly blown away if that trauma has consequences that get more than just a passing description. From everything I’ve seen so far, this is just not that kind of story. Also, that’s a weirdly hostile way to make that point.
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Aug 29, 2023 03:24
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Megazver posted:The 'next chapter' in question was posted on RR yesterday and it didn't happen, so maybe it's the next next chapter or maybe they were just trolling, I dunno. But yeah, lame either way. I'm not for trolling folks who care about spoilers with this kind of stuff. Just putting the thread on notice that if its possibly a spoiler to tag it, even if its a dumb joke (maybe it will improve the joke?)
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Aug 29, 2023 05:50
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blastron posted:(Bog Standard) I will be surprised if any part of this whole Scarred One thing is emotionally reflected on at all, shocked if it’s treated as a traumatic experience, and utterly blown away if that trauma has consequences that get more than just a passing description. From everything I’ve seen so far, this is just not that kind of story. The trauma had to be there for that class to even show up. It's been building, it's pretty obvious Brin was going further down the deep end with his interactions with his antagonist and the situation. One of the key no-no's that the adults skirt around is putting the children in amplified hostile situations to make them stronger. This isn't just because it's morally wrong to do to a child, it's to keep them from building up to qualify for 'evil' classes.
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Aug 29, 2023 05:58
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Bilirubin posted:I'm not for trolling folks who care about spoilers with this kind of stuff. Just putting the thread on notice that if its possibly a spoiler to tag it, even if its a dumb joke (maybe it will improve the joke?) It happened in two chapter rather than the next chapter. It wasn't a joke, it was an untagged spoiler about something pretty critical to the story.
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Aug 29, 2023 14:37
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