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"Oh, no, we're not antisemites, but when Apartheid Musk blames all his troubles on a Jewish organization we're happy to well actuallying why it's really okay because we don't like some of that organization's views"
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Sep 6, 2023 17:46
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The civil rights organization does not have to be an angel for us to slam Elon.
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Sep 6, 2023 17:46
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I'm not shocked that people are expressing hesitance to defend an organization that has been an open and vocal advocate for a genocide. If Elon had targeted, say, JVP or B'tselem the reaction would be entirely different. Framing it as "we don't like some of that organization's views" strikes me as a pretty disingenuous dismissal.
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Sep 6, 2023 18:30
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Jon posted:I'm not shocked that people are expressing hesitance to defend an organization that has been an open and vocal advocate for a genocide. If Elon had targeted, say, JVP or B'tselem the reaction would be entirely different. Framing it as "we don't like some of that organization's views" strikes me as a pretty disingenuous dismissal. Yep, exactly.
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Sep 6, 2023 18:33
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Absurd Alhazred posted:"Oh, no, we're not antisemites, but when Apartheid Musk blames all his troubles on a Jewish organization we're happy to well actuallying why it's really okay because we don't like some of that organization's views" They’re both lovely, fyi. I’m not defending Musk- he is an antisemite. I just hope that this damages both parties.
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Sep 6, 2023 18:34
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In this Antisemitic Godzilla vs King Kong fight, I'm not sure who to back so I'm just enjoying it.
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Sep 6, 2023 19:09
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It doesn't matter how much you dislike the ADL for other reasons. When you're watching a bunch of open white supremacists publicly attacking the ADL for its opposition to white supremacists, you do not nod along and say that maybe the white supremacists have a point. If you hate the ADL for other reasons, that's fine, hate the ADL for those reasons. But when multiple posters are uncritically taking Pizzagate Guy's anti-Semitic attacks at his word and openly expressing their hopes that the white supremacist hate campaign manages to damage their target, then I think it's worth expressing concern here. When you're watching openly anti-Semitic white supremacists openly organizing to attack an organization for its stance against anti-Semitism, that is absolutely not a "let them fight" moment. I'm not saying you have to get out there on the digital streets and start fighting to defend the ADL, but maybe at least we could try not being so quick to pull out the cheerleading gear. Jon posted:I'm not shocked that people are expressing hesitance to defend an organization that has been an open and vocal advocate for a genocide. If Elon had targeted, say, JVP or B'tselem the reaction would be entirely different. Framing it as "we don't like some of that organization's views" strikes me as a pretty disingenuous dismissal. Why would he target JVP or B'Tselem? Neither of those groups are primarily dedicated to fighting anti-Semitism, so why would they be on anti-Semites' target lists? They're not randomly picking the ADL from a list of Jewish-founded organizations, they're targeting the ADL because its primary purpose is fighting anti-Semitic extremism, and it has in fact had considerable success at deplatforming anti-Semitic hate groups. That is why they're mad at it. That is why they've been pushing #BanTheADL for days. That is why a long lineup of avowed white supremacists who openly hate Jews are extensively criticizing the ADL.
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Sep 6, 2023 19:23
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Main Paineframe posted:It doesn't matter how much you dislike the ADL for other reasons. When you're watching a bunch of open white supremacists publicly attacking the ADL for its opposition to white supremacists, you do not nod along and say that maybe the white supremacists have a point. I--and I think others like me--aren't nodding along with Elon Musk, Mike Cernovich, or any of the other right wing Twitter shitheads. They are attacking the ADL because they are open antisemites now, and I absolutely don't agree with their attacks. The ADL is, however, a horrible organization that has done, and continues to do, an enormous amount of damage. Just this past March, its CEO went on the record equating left-wing groups critical of Israel with right-wing groups like those attacking the ADL now, stating that both "endanger Jews." Where I live, in the UK, the ADL's campaigns in conjunction with small-C conservative British Jewish groups have done considerable political damage, effectively wiping out the left wing of the Labour Party and any prospect of progressive politics taking hold for the near future. So I'm absolutely not going to cry if this campaign does damage to the ADL. Other progressive Jewish advocacy groups? Absolutely, I'd be up in arms. But not the ADL. MeinPanzer fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Sep 6, 2023 |
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Sep 6, 2023 20:19
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MeinPanzer posted:So I'm absolutely not going to cry if this campaign does damage to the ADL. Other progressive Jewish advocacy groups? Absolutely, I'd be up in arms. But not the ADL. In that case, you still shouldn't be rooting for Musk, because any and all "damage" he causes will be tainted by the fact that they are 100% correct in going after him for their stated reasons.
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Sep 6, 2023 20:26
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Aramis posted:In that case, you still shouldn't be rooting for Musk, because any and all "damage" he causes will be tainted by the fact that they are 100% correct in going after him for their stated reasons. Damage is damage. If he drains the ADL's funds and hinders them from carrying out their campaigns, so be it.
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Sep 6, 2023 20:29
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MeinPanzer posted:Damage is damage. If he drains the ADL's funds and hinders them from carrying out their campaigns, so be it. Look, while I tend to agree that there are positions and battles taken by the ADL where they are on the wrong side, this is just not one of them. No matter how this shakes out, the ADL is going to come out on top PR-wise because they are up against honest-to-goodness actual loving Nazis here. I personally think the best you can hope for is to prop this up as a clear example of what the ADL should be spending their resources on instead of their more problematic activities.
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Sep 6, 2023 20:45
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MeinPanzer posted:I--and I think others like me--aren't nodding along with Elon Musk, Mike Cernovich, or any of the other right wing Twitter shitheads. They are attacking the ADL because they are open antisemites now, and I absolutely don't agree with their attacks. Ghost Leviathan posted:That the ADL immediately jumped to a weird blackmail tactic rather than say it's rather bad to blanket outlaw a more or less harmless religious practice doesn't reflect well on them. In the meantime, you don't agree with the attacks but also MeinPanzer posted:They’re both lovely, fyi. I’m not defending Musk- he is an antisemite. I just hope that this damages both parties. "Man, it's bullshit the ADL is getting threatened with lawfare by antisemities and fascists just for publicizing how they use social media" isn't an endorsement of the ADL. It's not a defense of their positions. Hoping, as you've repeatedly made explicit you do, that Musk damages ADL in retaliation for their reporting is advocating that the literal fascists achieve their goals through their chosen methods. That's ignoring, of course, that Musk having success here stymies other extremist researchers and the campaigns to deplatform the kiwifarms of the world, demonitize the Breitbarts and the Tuckers and the Ngos of the world, and the attempts to keep the sexual predators like Vic Mignogna out of the fan spaces and workplaces where they hunt. Personally, I think cheering for antisemities to destroy the ADL isn't sanctified because you want it for really good reasons. Apparently, your mileage may vary?
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Sep 6, 2023 21:03
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To quote the great sage Dril. "You Do Not, Under Any Circumstances, "Gotta Hand It To Them"
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Sep 7, 2023 04:56
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I am extremely weary of the ADL due to their anti-Palestinian positions, but ultimately I want them to get their poo poo pushed in as a direct result of those positions and not for the things they do which are worthwhile. Having them chastised for the good things they do does nothing to stop the bad things they do in the long run, and even if I thought their eventual elimination were a net positive, any successor organization would learn the lesson that "anti-Palestinian poo poo is good, criticizing American Nazis is bad" and that doesn't accomplish my goals of stopping the bad things the ADL participates in. It's like attacking the Catholic Church for social justice initiatives rather than their rampant homophobia, transphobia and child abuse. I like seeing them take an L on principle, but it doesn't really help if it's for entirely the wrong reasons.
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Sep 7, 2023 05:19
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Automata 10 Pack posted:that one dril tweet about isis? Telsa Cola posted:I loving hate that quote because goons apply it to everything and have run it into the ground. Nitrousoxide posted:To quote the great sage Dril. "You Do Not, Under Any Circumstances, "Gotta Hand It To Them" lmao not even a full page later
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Sep 7, 2023 06:01
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A more apt quote is probably "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." You don't gotta think the ADL is great to recognize that these people going after it are absolute monsters.
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Sep 7, 2023 06:26
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PT6A posted:I am extremely weary of the ADL due to their anti-Palestinian positions, but ultimately I want them to get their poo poo pushed in as a direct result of those positions and not for the things they do which are worthwhile. Having them chastised for the good things they do does nothing to stop the bad things they do in the long run, and even if I thought their eventual elimination were a net positive, any successor organization would learn the lesson that "anti-Palestinian poo poo is good, criticizing American Nazis is bad" and that doesn't accomplish my goals of stopping the bad things the ADL participates in. I and some posters in this thread are obviously not ever going to see eye-to-eye on this issue, but I'll just say that the main reason I feel the way I do about this scenario is precisely that right-wing Jewish advocacy organizations like the ADL don't ever suffer consequences for their lovely positions and campaigns in the real world. They throw the accusation of antisemitism around in defense of Israel and pro-Israel politicians knowing how damaging it is and knowing that most people won't dare challenge them for fear of being tarred with the same label. They actively damage or destroy progressive movements and then crow about how they've helped to prevent the next Holocaust, all the while actively supporting atrocities and oppression in Palestine. They also often ignore or only occasionally limply criticize actual right-wing antisemites while aggressively attacking the left, so this involves some added chickens-coming-home-to-roost schadenfreude. I can't remember the last time a group like the ADL was actually held accountable for its aggressively terrible actions. So I'll take the next best thing, which is the prospect of the psycho idiot impulsive billionaire draining them of some resources.
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Sep 7, 2023 08:31
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Yeah let’s get rid of the most successful group fighting antisemitism on social media, great idea, because that’s not critical to the personal loving survival of a huge number of Jewish people in Amerikkka. Wanting the ADL to lose means you want the blood of your neighbors on your hands. It’s saying American Jewish people are collectively guilty for scumbag settlers and deserve to be punished with more random synagogue shootings in Ohio, because that’s what happens if they let up or lose.
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Sep 7, 2023 09:12
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Remulak posted:Yeah let’s get rid of the most successful group fighting antisemitism on social media, great idea, because that’s not critical to the personal loving survival of a huge number of Jewish people in Amerikkka. Wanting to keep the ADL means wanting to keep a Nakba denying organisation that cooperated with apartheid South Africa through spying on activists, and now minimizes Palestinian suffering and works against an end to the apartheid set up against them. It is a matter of whether you value the conditions of Palestinians or their lives. If you don't, go on and keep supporting the ADL and through it, apartheid and genocide denial.
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Sep 7, 2023 10:22
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The ADL doesn't have much directly to do with the disintegration of Twitter or even the proliferation of rival right wing nationalists there. Twitter is increasingly becoming an irrelevant playground for radioactive conservative viewpoints.
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Sep 7, 2023 11:08
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Of course, and most companies shouldn't need to be told that having Nazi oven memes appearing beside their brand is bad for business. Those memes and accounts have had a large presence there for years and there were always people complaining about it. But it did get noticeably worse after he came in. Like unbanning the relatively few that had been banned, and banning anti Nazi accounts.
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Sep 7, 2023 11:38
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Adenoid Dan posted:Those memes and accounts have had a large presence there for years and there were always people complaining about it. But it did get noticeably worse after he came in. Like unbanning the relatively few that had been banned, and banning anti Nazi accounts. The fact that musk openly chats to some pretty well known bad ones also is also him throwing up a big sign that this his is the social media for that sort of crap.
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Sep 7, 2023 11:43
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I don't have enough knowledge to weigh in on the past transgressions of the ADL but their beef with Twitter certainly seems like it might be a reasonable concern...
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Sep 7, 2023 11:54
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Oh their concerns about Twitter and most of the issues they pursue are completely valid. I eventually gave up on reporting Nazi accounts because they were almost never dealt with, even when they included images of nooses and ovens. Most people have similar experiences of reporting those accounts. There are two sides here, on this specific issue, and the ADL is unquestionably the one with the correct stance. But this is not the only issue, and in other places the ADL is acting in support of apartheid and denying and justifying historical and ongoing ethnic cleansing and apartheid. That's why people don't want to hand anything to them.
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Sep 7, 2023 12:11
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Pointing out that Musk using the ADL as a scapegoat for Twitter’s advertising woes is itself an antisemitic action isn’t “handing it” to the ADL
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Sep 7, 2023 14:06
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Jon posted:I'm not shocked that people are expressing hesitance to defend an organization that has been an open and vocal advocate for a genocide. Too hard to tell if this is referring to Elon's Twitter or the ADL.
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Sep 7, 2023 14:41
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MeinPanzer posted:I and some posters in this thread are obviously not ever going to see eye-to-eye on this issue, but I'll just say that the main reason I feel the way I do about this scenario is precisely that right-wing Jewish advocacy organizations like the ADL don't ever suffer consequences for their lovely positions and campaigns in the real world. They throw the accusation of antisemitism around in defense of Israel and pro-Israel politicians knowing how damaging it is and knowing that most people won't dare challenge them for fear of being tarred with the same label. They actively damage or destroy progressive movements and then crow about how they've helped to prevent the next Holocaust, all the while actively supporting atrocities and oppression in Palestine. They also often ignore or only occasionally limply criticize actual right-wing antisemites while aggressively attacking the left, so this involves some added chickens-coming-home-to-roost schadenfreude. Regardless of the level of irony involved, you can't exactly be surprised at some raised eyebrows regarding your take on the ADL with the username "MeinPanzer"... Even awful organizations can sometimes be on the right side of things, so maybe some positive reinforcement of "pick this battle, not the other one where you defend apartheid" is the tack to take rather than "gently caress both of them"?
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Sep 7, 2023 16:01
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Teratrain posted:I don't have enough knowledge to weigh in on the past transgressions of the ADL but their beef with Twitter certainly seems like it might be a reasonable concern... It is a completely reasonable concern, and fighting antisemitism anywhere and everywhere that it rears up is a good thing. But the ADL specifically has spent the last many years cozying up to the right wing, so they're having a bit of a 'I never expected the leopards to eat MY face' moment and I for one don't feel bad at all for feeling schadenfreude. Maybe they shouldn't have been giving these same types of people awards and speaking engagements when they expected them to only cheerlead for Palestinian genocide.
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Sep 7, 2023 16:09
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Timmy Age 6 posted:Even awful organizations can sometimes be on the right side of things, so maybe some positive reinforcement of "pick this battle, not the other one where you defend apartheid" is the tack to take rather than "gently caress both of them"?
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Sep 7, 2023 16:22
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Family Values posted:It is a completely reasonable concern, and fighting antisemitism anywhere and everywhere that it rears up is a good thing. But the ADL specifically has spent the last many years cozying up to the right wing, so they're having a bit of a 'I never expected the leopards to eat MY face' moment and I for one don't feel bad at all for feeling schadenfreude. Maybe they shouldn't have been giving these same types of people awards and speaking engagements when they expected them to only cheerlead for Palestinian genocide. Maybe consider that what you're actively vocalizing is that your feelings of pleasure are due to an increase in Nazism. I'm certain we all enjoy watching right-wingers get in fights and shithead republicans getting attacked by their own when supporting something good definitely encourages a bit of sideline laughter, but when you start burning bonus calories to announce how happy you are that Senator LowTaxes' kid is being attacked by Representative BookBurner for attending a BLM rally then maybe consider not  if you don't want to be viewed as supporting attacking civil rights.
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Sep 7, 2023 18:06
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itt people cheering a highspeed swastika-adorned bulldozer going through a dickhead's house which has an unrelated synagogue immediately behind it
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Sep 7, 2023 18:13
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So I finally got an invite code to BlueSky and, as I feared, the exclusivity of the platform means I don’t find much fanart, which is the number one reason I’m on social media 😔
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Sep 7, 2023 20:16
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SgtSteel91 posted:So I finally got an invite code to BlueSky and, as I feared, the exclusivity of the platform means I don’t find much fanart, which is the number one reason I’m on social media 😔 Yeah, until it's open access, it isn't very artist friendly. I figure that'll change once the platform opens up, but that'll likely take years.
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Sep 7, 2023 20:45
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Lol @ a dude called Heinrich von German Name chiming in to say “hey maybe the Nazis have a point about these particular Jews”
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Sep 7, 2023 21:19
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Speaking of, I have another bluesky code if any one needs one. e:sent OgNar fucked around with this message at 10:22 on Sep 8, 2023 |
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Sep 8, 2023 08:04
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OgNar posted:Speaking of, I have another bluesky code if any one needs one. I could use a code if not taken already, have PMs?
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Sep 8, 2023 09:18
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I feel social pressure to get a Bluesky because the artists I follow have one, but I also feel like I won't have an audience there myself. Currently I guess it's good for mutuals but poo poo for showcasing? I wish Cohost would take off, it's like a Tumblr with moer custom filters.
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Sep 8, 2023 14:09
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I have 3 blue sky codes and can PM then to people who want them.
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Sep 8, 2023 18:28
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Szmitten posted:I feel social pressure to get a Bluesky because the artists I follow have one, but I also feel like I won't have an audience there myself. Currently I guess it's good for mutuals but poo poo for showcasing? It probably won't be good for showcasing until it's visible to the general public, yeah But if you think you might ever use it for that, may as well make an account now to get as close to your preferred username as you can
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Sep 8, 2023 18:29
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Yeah, blue sky is going to be big eventually as Twitter starts to clear out, so if you're an artist getting an account now and sitting on it until it opens up to the general public will probably be a good long term investment. I may be proven wrong here, but we'll see.
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Sep 8, 2023 22:23
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