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fun hater posted:i dont think anyone is debating the existence of the change in accent lol but ppl are assigning nefarious reasoning for a more "common" accent from characters who arent the main cast of children attending a prestigious and posh boarding school who are also presented as having a completely different skin color and unfamiliar culture in addition to being VERY clearly of a lower social and economic class, which stands out given how poorly gunnerkrigg court has built out literally any other world details about what the court is actually like to live in
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Sep 18, 2023 03:14
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fun hater posted:to me it just read as a clumsily executed attempt at a stock "i didn't NEED your help" scene; lana comes off as more angry at his intrusion to her flirting (that shes learned about from her books). like, the purpose of the scene was to show loup overreacting in a scary way to a perceived slight. you werent supposed to clap your hands for loup breaking their fingers. i really struggle to view that scene as a potential sexual assault in any capacity I think what clearly defines it as sexual assault, to me at least, is the question mark from Lana as the elf boy moves in while asking her to show them "what boys like". That little ? tips it over from "Lana was just flirting and having fun" to "Lana doesn't know what she's doing and is being taken advantage of." As for whether the reader is supposed to (dis)approve of Loup's actions, it's unclear to me either way. He did prevent Lana from getting into a situation she clearly didn't understand, and later Reynard is like "nah you did the right thing" - granted Reynard is not an objective voice of reason or anything, but the only time the comic seems to disapprove of his actions are Lana getting mad at him (and it's already established she didn't understand that she may have been in danger), and him being drawn kind of scary. Either way, I don't really see why it had to be elves here and not just rando court humans.
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Sep 18, 2023 03:15
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Oxxidation posted:lana is unwittingly inviting intimate contact here because she equates exhibitionism with body positivity and she's too naive to get how other people might interpret that. you can tell by the question mark in panel 3 that she has no idea what the elves are asking - she's not flirting because she doesn't understand what flirting is ??? the question mark reads like curiosity. i dont understand how the rest of the assumptions were extrapolated Patware posted:he learned nothing from it and was only ultimately rewarded for his behavior rewarded with .....what. was lana the reward?? im pretty sure the intense scary close up of loups face is a pretty deliberate attempt to communicate "wrongness". was getting a girlfriend a special treat for him because he was being morally correct??? that specific behavior repels her
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Sep 18, 2023 03:21
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Patware posted:who are also presented as having a completely different skin color and unfamiliar culture in addition to being VERY clearly of a lower social and economic class, which stands out given how poorly gunnerkrigg court has built out literally any other world details about what the court is actually like to live in er. are the elves poor. or do they just live in the forest CodfishCartographer posted:
renard has really weird ideas about women lol. he gives loup terrible advice to apologize but not mean it. as for why not humans, i agree that i dont think it would have made too much of a difference to change to humans but i had a think: the forest folk havent seen anything like the robots right? the thought process could have been that humans might have been less curious about them. still would have worked tho fun hater fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Sep 18, 2023 |
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Sep 18, 2023 03:23
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alright so you just refuse to process fiction at all, got it
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Sep 18, 2023 03:25
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fun hater posted:??? the question mark reads like curiosity. i dont understand how the rest of the assumptions were extrapolated no, sorry, this is just an incorrect read. even if you overlook the punctuation mark, her body language is unreactive - she's not returning the elf's touch, she's just letting herself be pulled in because she doesn't know why he's handling her - her introduction to the story had her showing off her body to loup strictly out of aesthetics, and at the end of the chapter she doesn't even understand what a crush feels like. she's proud of her body in a strictly objective sense, with no idea how that might come off to people who understand sexuality. she's childishly naive, basically showing off her t&a to people like a kid would show you a new haircut or a pair of shoes the point of all that being that the elf's advances on her were non-reciprocal, so loup's spooky assault is still being framed as him using his aggressiveness to save the girl, and she ends up becoming his girlfriend as a result. the whole thing is a mess Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Sep 18, 2023 |
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Sep 18, 2023 03:26
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Oxxidation posted:no, sorry, this is just an incorrect read. even if you overlook the punctuation mark, her body language is unreactive - she's not returning the elf's touch, she's just letting herself be pulled in because she doesn't know why he's handling her - her introduction to the story had her showing off her body to loup strictly out of aesthetics, and at the end of the chapter she doesn't even understand what a crush feels like. she's proud of her body in a strictly objective sense, with no idea how that might come off to people who understand sexuality. she's childishly naive theres no concern on her face or body language but more than that: and the story has never been that dark or crossed those themes. why would this non-event in the overall plot utilize rape so cavalierly given literally all the other writing in the comic?
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Sep 18, 2023 03:29
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fun hater posted:theres no concern on her face or body language but more than that: and the story has never been that dark or crossed those themes. why would this non-event in the overall plot utilize rape so cavalierly given literally all the other writing in the comic? yes, that's why everyone had their heads in their hands for this. because that is how the scene is depicted and meant to be read, and it's done for such a stupid, avoidable reason https://twitter.com/gunnerkrigg/status/1466994808803803138
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Sep 18, 2023 03:31
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i do not think it was the authors intent to suggest a group rape was about to occur were it not for the villains unwanted intervention
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Sep 18, 2023 03:37
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fun hater posted:er. are the elves poor. or do they just live in the forest You… just pointed out yourself the boarding school was prestigious and posh and they’re presented as more common. If someone’s home is destroyed and they have to become refugees living in a place we already know devalues them as people and/or exploits them, that suggests a certain level of poorness, yes? Honestly at this point I think you’re just loving with everyone which, well done I guess 
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Sep 18, 2023 03:38
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fun hater posted:i do not think it was the authors intent to suggest a group rape was about to occur were it not for the villains unwanted intervention if you're not willing to recognize the unwanted physical contact in that scene then there really isn't anything further to discuss. the anti-immigrant thing is extrapolating a few steps further than i'm comfortable with but this is just information obviously there on the page
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Sep 18, 2023 03:39
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There are lots of stories that use sexual menace as a threat, which the (in this case edgy, misunderstood) hero can save the naive heroine from. It's one of the oldest cliches in mediocre romance stories, and shows up in a bunch of shoujo as well. Usually, it's not treated with the gravity we want to treat sexual assault, because on some level it's understood that the threat will never be carried out; the menace is strictly for show, to establish stakes. That is still a gross trope to use. E: Like, the idea that sexual menace is never used in media that would never carry through with it is just laughable, and the idea that the scenario isn't a carbon copy of a dime-a-dozen scene of 'naive upper-class girl doesn't understand the threat, has to be saved by rough-around-the-edges romantic opposite number' is just laughable. That is precisely the cliche it reproduces, and we know that the author is reproducing a bunch of romance comic cliches in the chapters surrounding Loup and Lana, including a big shoujo romance story spread at the end of one chapter. Most of the issues arise from precisely that xerox reproduction of questionable romance tropes, like 'I love you so much it doesn't matter that you hit me into a wall' and 'sure he hit her but they're in love now,' both of which follow the exact same tropes as 'rough, edgy character saves naive girl, upsets her in the process by implying she needs saving (she did).' Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Sep 18, 2023 |
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Sep 18, 2023 03:39
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coolusername posted:Honestly at this point I think you’re just loving with everyone which, well done I guess gotta be, since the alternative is putting an awful lot of passion into talking about a piece of media that they are not bothering to actually think about at all
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Sep 18, 2023 03:40
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fun hater posted:i do not think it was the authors intent to suggest a group rape was about to occur were it not for the villains unwanted intervention Then you are wrong. Sorry. It’s not really subtext it’s just text.
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Sep 18, 2023 03:44
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Joe Slowboat posted:There are lots of stories that use sexual menace as a threat, which the (in this case edgy, misunderstood) hero can save the naive heroine from. this is it yeah. coolusername posted:You… just pointed out yourself the boarding school was prestigious and posh and they’re presented as more common. If someone’s home is destroyed and they have to become refugees living in a place we already know devalues them as people and/or exploits them, that suggests a certain level of poorness, yes? i dont really understand what youre trying to say other than to point out that i said a boarding school attracts posh accents. theres plenty of other elves in the comic who arent accented; theres undue focus on this one example. i think you can safely assume that most people mean what they say and dont just say things to upset you.
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Sep 18, 2023 03:53
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I want to be clear that I was not agreeing with you, fun hater, but rather disagreeing with you harshly. Using sexual menace like that, with the thoughtless assumption that because it's a trope and you'd never actually go that far it's therefore not really engaging with sexual assault imagery, is still using sexual menace. E: Also I believe every green forest elf has had the same eye dialect; it's the fairies, a distinct category of being, who don't.
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Sep 18, 2023 03:58
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Personally, I don't think there was any intentional thought put behind the elves as refugees or migrants or whatever being the ones Lana was flirting with. Lana flirting, getting in over her head, and getting rescued by Loup before it could go anywhere seems like the intended trajectory in any case. And that on its own is a stupid, tired, and problematic plot beat. Like everything involving Lana at this point really. Like seriously, why would anyone look at what happens to Lana and be satisfied with what they're planning?
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Sep 18, 2023 04:05
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Joe Slowboat posted:I want to be clear that I was not agreeing with you, fun hater, but rather disagreeing with you harshly. i think your assessment of the trope is dead on, whether we agree or not on this specific instance. its a sexist and tired plot device predicated on the idea of women as static objects that have things DONE to them or FOR them. i just thought you had a very succinct understanding of it and why it turns the stomach when it shows up. in my case, when im looking at the work as a whole, i have trouble assigning the level of malice or menace to it strongly implied by tiny myers original post. knowing its the work of a single person and the entire rest of the comic being strongly aimed toward a general audience, im more willing to just assume it was a flopped plot beat with less thought put into it than it deserved Nuns with Guns posted:Personally, I don't think there was any intentional thought put behind the elves as refugees or migrants or whatever being the ones Lana was flirting with. Lana flirting, getting in over her head, and getting rescued by Loup before it could go anywhere seems like the intended trajectory in any case. And that on its own is a stupid, tired, and problematic plot beat. Like everything involving Lana at this point really. its so bad lol. its so bad.
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Sep 18, 2023 04:24
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If there's anyone that we should give the benefit of the doubt when it comes to racism, it's definitely a white Brit
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Sep 18, 2023 04:45
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I think the disconnect you might be having is that you think intent is required for the scene to be gross. But it's not, people repeat tropes like this without realizing all the time. Be it because they lack experience to recognize it or they don't care or they just are uncritically copying the sorts of scenes in the fiction they've read growing up or whatever else. That doesn't change the fact that the scene was written as it was written. In that respect intent is irrelevant. It's not a comment on the ethics or goodness of the author, it's just saying this scene has some extremely lovely implications in it that are hard to overlook. And that absolutely drags down the quality of the comic as a whole.
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Sep 18, 2023 05:12
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Kesper North posted:Oh no spiders. If only one among you was a living death ray. Anyway,
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Sep 18, 2023 09:44
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loup especially as loup-jerrek is obviously supposed to be like an elemental force of bad YA tropes, a fanfic writer with godly powers. but this concept is not really used effectively to do much beyond repeating bad YA tropes and half-heartedly tapping the fourth wall
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Sep 18, 2023 13:28
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fun hater posted:i think you can safely assume that most people mean what they say and dont just say things to upset you. You have also been nothing but incredibly hostile and condescending since you stepped in this thread, which is why I'm not engaging your ideas other than to point out how blatantly untrue this is. Anyway I'm glad Annie is getting a shred of agency for once and we're finally getting to see what her powers look like in practice post-merge, since it was implied she was much stronger due to that but we haven't really gotten to witness it.
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Sep 18, 2023 15:13
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Tiny Myers posted:Anyway I'm glad Annie is getting a shred of agency for once and we're finally getting to see what her powers look like in practice post-merge, since it was implied she was much stronger due to that but we haven't really gotten to witness it. Time to go full Dragon Ball Z posting, I guess. Fusion is a major power multiplier, but masenko just isn't a very impressive attack to start with. Its hard to see this being enough to negate the enemy's regeneration. I have minor complaints about the panel to panel action (enemy is directly in front of her, then its getting blasted up and back, then it landed almost directly up?), but you are right. Agency! Something that might be a conflict! Woo! Hope it doesn't just get resolved instantly next page.
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Sep 18, 2023 15:50
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Being a bit charitable to the comic, I suppose Annie's fire powers having improved this much helps explain why she is relatively confident in this situation.
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Sep 18, 2023 15:52
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Huh, has the comic usually used that kind of cape comics sound effect? Possibly I’m just not remembering.
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Sep 18, 2023 16:14
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The used to be used extensively early on: https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=117 But eventually they were toned down heavily: https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=807 https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1400 Here is a much more recent page with finger lasers: https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2204 The one on this page is a little word-artier than most of the others, that is about it.
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Sep 18, 2023 16:31
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Kesper North posted:Oh no spiders. If only one among you was a living death ray. Anyway,
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Sep 18, 2023 16:47
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this would definitely have been cooler if like annie had turned and immediately lasered the thing and THEN been like 'weird zimmy monsters, it's normal' then it would feel like someone's taking something a little seriously
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Sep 18, 2023 17:05
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fun hater posted:Is there some reason why ya'll are glossing over the fact that Siddell retweeted a group of polite, yet mildly upset people, many of whom identified as transwomen, for the sole purpose of mocking them in front of an audience of 13k people or like are you gonna keep prattling on about CRAZY these strawmen youve invented are. you rly 180'd your opinion on tom when the comic actually got bad, huh? bad faith posting should be ban worthy tbh.
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Sep 18, 2023 17:21
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Niavmai posted:bad faith posting should be ban worthy tbh.
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Sep 18, 2023 17:34
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The 7th Guest posted:this thread wouldn't survive lol. like you literally grabbed a post from 9 years ago to try to own fun hater. loving pathetic i clicked on their post history because i couldn't find a specific post i wanted to quote. it was the very first thing to show up.
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Sep 18, 2023 17:36
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people's opinions can change with time. i understand this is a difficult concept, you may take a few minutes to consider this
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Sep 18, 2023 17:42
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I think people's opinions of Gunnerkrigg Court/Tom are allowed to change over 9 years. Also it doesn't actually sound like she disagrees that much with the thread on specific ways the comic sucks now, so I think assuming she's some bad faith troll is kind of bad and maybe a sign of mockthread rot setting in if everyone going against any grain here is defaulted to a troll. JuniperCake posted:I think the disconnect you might be having is that you think intent is required for the scene to be gross. But it's not, people repeat tropes like this without realizing all the time. Be it because they lack experience to recognize it or they don't care or they just are uncritically copying the sorts of scenes in the fiction they've read growing up or whatever else. It sucks the same way I find makeup has been framed as icky and bad through poor handling of implications in the comic bad. I don't know if there was conscious thought put into the chain of implications, but the surface writing of Lana on its own blows rear end in ways that should've been obvious and avoidable if any care was put into it all.
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Sep 18, 2023 17:44
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pull up thread
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Sep 18, 2023 17:45
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SpiritOfLenin posted:people's opinions can change with time. my entire point is their vitrol from then, over what was genuinely a mistake/miscommunication, to change into Get Down Mr. Siddell only after the author has lost the faith of the rest of the thread, is real suspect. we have genuine complaints and concerns now, i find it pretty hilarious that their only posts in this thread are from two completely different angles. Nuns with Guns posted:I think people's opinions of Gunnerkrigg Court/Tom are allowed to change over 9 years. never said they couldn't, i only find the timing real strange. e: Nuns with Guns posted:Also it doesn't actually sound like she disagrees that much with the thread on specific ways the comic sucks now, so I think assuming she's some bad faith troll is kind of bad and maybe a sign of mockthread rot setting in if everyone going against any grain here is defaulted to a troll. fun hater posted:?????????? i literally cannot see this dialog as anything but teens of any origin. what is everyone else seeing lol it doesn't?? really?? Niavmai fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Sep 18, 2023 |
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Sep 18, 2023 17:46
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Niavmai posted:never said they couldn't, i only find the timing real strange. Why is it strange?
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Sep 18, 2023 17:52
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I think the comic needs to stop being so boring that this thread descends into cannibalism
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Sep 18, 2023 17:56
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Rotten Red Rod posted:I think the comic needs to stop being so boring that this thread descends into cannibalism
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Sep 18, 2023 17:56
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Nuns with Guns posted:Why is it strange? we're finally at the point of many people thinking it's possible that tom's actually doing these weird and horrible things on purpose, and assigning intent to it. the faith has so completely eroded that mods have to come in (more often) and tell us to gently caress off. i truly struggle to believe that someone who would accuse tom of transphobia 9 years ago, would have completely changed ther opinion only after these developments, but i guess people are complicated.
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Sep 18, 2023 18:00
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