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Comrade Blyatlov posted:wait moiraine can channel again now Belal's death is still one of the funniest in the whole series
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Oct 4, 2023 11:37
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Speaking of Belal's death I can't believe they wrote out Bella after one episode.
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Oct 4, 2023 14:54
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BigHead posted:Speaking of Belal's death I can't believe they wrote out Bella after one episode. Well, you don't want to overuse the Creator. It would diminish everyone else's struggle.
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Oct 4, 2023 15:02
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How funny would it be if we got a scene if Ishamael breaking out Belal and the dude has only one more scene where he makes a dramatic entrance and gets balefired and we never mention him again on the show. Make it happen, Rafe.
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Oct 4, 2023 15:04
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Lanfear and Ish play go fish with the seals, neither wants Bel, they leave his seal when they bail out to do other things, it gets accidentally balefired. Just the most offhanded treatment.
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Oct 4, 2023 15:22
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Eighties ZomCom posted:He'll just show up a season or two later and Rand will be like "But I killed you!" and Ishy will be like "eh, I got better." “Somehow, Ishamael returned”
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Oct 4, 2023 16:09
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Health Services posted:Perhaps Rand deciding to face his destiny by himself (or near enough), and then learning to become a leader is a more coherent arc than the other way around? In the show he’s run away from everyone and everything. His only growth is that now he wants to rescue Egwene.
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Oct 4, 2023 16:53
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th3t00t posted:In the show he’s run away from everyone and everything. His only growth is that now he wants to rescue Egwene. Running away from the mantle of Dragon Reborn is a major part of his character arc in Book 2.
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Oct 4, 2023 17:55
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Gnoman posted:Running away from the mantle of Dragon Reborn is a major part of his character arc in Book 2. Also in book 3. It's framed as him running TOO his destiny but he's doing it in the most suicidal self destructive way, as if he's daring the pattern to kill him just to prove he really isn't the dragon.
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Oct 4, 2023 18:11
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th3t00t posted:I don’t think the order matters. I’m just pointing out that neither thing has happened. So Rand is not even close to where he ends in book 3 as he hasn’t gone through his character arcs of book 2 or book 3. He runs away all of book 3, too. We really don’t see him until the end when he gets to Tear. It totally makes sense why they combined books 2 and 3. Rafe is right that the plot of both are basically the same. I’d rather him off on his own trying to see Logain and getting mixed up with Lanfear thank just flashes of him trying to make it to Tear as he goes nuts in the woods. Also, of course he’s going to try to rescue Egwene. Edit: Also, Mat didn’t do a whole hell of a lot in the books by this point. He doesn’t start really getting into his luck until the end when he’s sneaking into Tear. We see him gamble and win and get lucky in some fights, but it takes some books before he becomes the “Mat” we all know. KilGrey fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Oct 4, 2023 |
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Oct 4, 2023 18:14
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Rand on the edge of desperate crazy might have been too quick in his overall arc and was then pulled back but man it made him a really interesting character to follow, something it's a shame the show isn't apparently following.
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Oct 4, 2023 18:17
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silvergoose posted:Belal's death is still one of the funniest in the whole series The proper term is: Be'lol
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Oct 4, 2023 18:31
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The question is gonna be whether or not tomorrow night's episode is a banger or not Either they flub it or they whack it out of the park, no in between I am somewhat excited to see how they have so far successfully set Mat up as the "Yolo, let's try the magic thing and see what happens" guy
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Oct 4, 2023 18:33
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Shageletic posted:Rand on the edge of desperate crazy might have been too quick in his overall arc and was then pulled back but man it made him a really interesting character to follow, something it's a shame the show isn't apparently following. I'm not convinced they can decently wrap up most of the threads they have in one final episode, so I guess I'm hoping they kind of abandon some of them and pick them up next season and give the important things time to breath. Leave Min and Liandrin behind, don't focus too much on Loial and Ingtar, etc.
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Oct 4, 2023 18:43
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where mat and rand are emotionally in the books is kind of irrelevant. egwene and nynaeve had rather more material in season one then they do in TEOTW and no one (worth listening to) cares about that or feels that stuff not being there at that time in the books made it bad. so far mat feels pretty adjunct to the show, and they highlighted that by choosing to silo him in his own specialboy plotline, and rand feels like he's been spinning his wheels for two seasons. he's even getting plenty of screentime, they just seem to have no approach as how to characterize him deeply without narration and they haven't made the lack of access to his headspace very interesting either. it's a shame because the decision he makes at the end of season one (explicitly rejecting ishamael's offer because he refuses to see egwene as a happy ending to be offered and understands her as a person in herself) was a super interesting and fun change for the adaptation to make. it gives us a glimpse of a very thoughtful and empathetic rand; a rand who understands the gendered nature of his role in a complex way could be really fun! But they sort of just left that there and imo haven't built on it much and now it just kinda falls into his "generally self-sacrificing" nature which isn't as interesting. . Valentin fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Oct 4, 2023 |
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Oct 4, 2023 18:53
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Valentin posted:where mat and rand are emotionally in the books is kind of irrelevant. The story of wheel of time is centered by the character's emotional journeys. So in the context of talking about the overall narrative, it's extremely relevant.
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Oct 4, 2023 19:01
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uh, yeah, most stories are about character's emotional journeys, wheel of time is not remotely unique in that lol. I mean in the context of an adaptation, where a character is emotionally in the books has no relation to whether their emotional journey as depicted in the adaptation is compelling.
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Oct 4, 2023 19:03
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Do you think these books and their heavy reliance on narration and points of view make it a harder task to translate to movies and films than something like, say, Lord of the Rings. So much of WoT is the reader picking strands from the protagonists viewpoint they don't even realize themselves, sort of an ironic distance/death of the author thing that is really clever stuff from Jordan. I can think of some cool adaptations of books that rely on that distance, but then there's stuff like Cosmopolis where you just had another character literally voicing the protagonists narration.
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Oct 4, 2023 19:05
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Valentin posted:uh, yeah, most stories are about character's emotional journeys, wheel of time is not remotely unique in that lol. I mean in the context of an adaptation, where a character is emotionally in the books has no relation to whether their emotional journey as depicted in the adaptation is compelling. Yeah the show needs to present these characters and stand on it's own.
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Oct 4, 2023 19:05
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Valentin posted:uh, yeah, most stories are about character's emotional journeys, wheel of time is not remotely unique in that lol. I mean in the context of an adaptation, where a character is emotionally in the books has no relation to whether their emotional journey as depicted in the adaptation is compelling. I didn't say nor imply that it was unique. I also didn't say anything about compelling. Folks were talking about how TDR and TGH are or are not combined into S2 of the show.
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Oct 4, 2023 19:06
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I would say narration heavy POV switching makes adaptation extremely difficult, yeah. It made game of thrones hard to adapt, and that's a series where characters love to speak directly to each other and say "HERE IS MY PHILOSOPHICAL STANCE ON POWER." some of the best work GoTs1 does is in adding dialogue to help us really understand characters who are otherwise characterized heavily through other's narration. Robert and Cersei, for example, are both heavily informed by Ned's POV, so instead they added that scene of them eating dinner to get in some of their characterization. Not all of it works well (chaos is a ladder!; also the show fails to convey any of Dany's possible mounting targaryen madness until way too late in the game), but I think that show provides another example of a source material that has that difficulty and another adaptation that tries to handle it. I think WoT's approach seems to basically be "gently caress it we're adapting the plot" and I think that's a shame because the pov adds a lot of texture. Stuff like rand seeing lan and nynaeve in the blight in TEOTW does a lot to characterize all three, and what replaces it in the show loses a lot of power and weight imo. Valentin fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Oct 4, 2023 |
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Oct 4, 2023 19:08
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Oh GoT is a great example. And that has at least as skewed and heavily baked in non verbal PoVs
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Oct 4, 2023 19:10
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just remembering it now but GOT provides a great example of this in its flashbacks, which the show struggled with for AGES because they wanted to not use them, (imo) because flashback breaks the diegetic and chronological nature of a show in a way it doesn't for first person narration (the books don't have to ever "flash back" because they can have characters think about and remember things as they become relevant in the flow of the story). But it turns out stuff like the tower of joy flashback or Cersei meeting the witch is important not just for the plot points you can recount but for the emotional beats each offers, and the show eventually had to admit defeat* and get those on screen so it could adapt their emotional impact as well as plot relevance *(and imo it really was a defeat and a failure of adaptation; the main value of the tower of joy flashback is characterizing ned and understanding the decision he made w/r/t Jon more clearly, and through that a better understanding of catelyn etc. Secondarily it reinforces the book's critical vibe that we are at the end of a heroic age, and the true knights are generally all dead in the last war. So throwing it in waaaaay late in the game purely for R+L=J was a mistake) Valentin fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Oct 4, 2023 |
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Oct 4, 2023 19:14
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I've never been entirely sure about how much I agree with the whole "books 2 and 3 are very similar!" take. The very general shape of the story is fairly similar, true enough, but who is doing what, how, and why are all pretty different. Some of the plotlines are probably easily enough condensed (like Rand basically doesn't have one in one book, and nobody cares enough about Perrin so whatever), but also I dunno how you get around the finales. Or Mat's arc. And if it's about the Wondergirls getting captured being repetitive, well, I've got baaaaaaad news on that front.
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Oct 4, 2023 19:37
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Eighties ZomCom posted:He'll just show up a season or two later and Rand will be like "But I killed you!" and Ishy will be like "eh, I got better." I hope if they do Moridin, they 1) cast a dude who just looks like a 20-something Fares Fares, and 2) just keep having Fares Fares show up on screen anyway so Ish can keep taunting Rand and co. like an rear end in a top hat. e: Nevermind, gently caress it, just have Fares bring THIS look back for Moridin  :
nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Oct 4, 2023 |
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Oct 4, 2023 19:45
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Valentin posted:I would say narration heavy POV switching makes adaptation extremely difficult, yeah. It made game of thrones hard to adapt, and that's a series where characters love to speak directly to each other and say "HERE IS MY PHILOSOPHICAL STANCE ON POWER." some of the best work GoTs1 does is in adding dialogue to help us really understand characters who are otherwise characterized heavily through other's narration. Robert and Cersei, for example, are both heavily informed by Ned's POV, so instead they added that scene of them eating dinner to get in some of their characterization. Not all of it works well (chaos is a ladder!; also the show fails to convey any of Dany's possible mounting targaryen madness until way too late in the game), but I think that show provides another example of a source material that has that difficulty and another adaptation that tries to handle it.
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Oct 4, 2023 19:51
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CainFortea posted:If you treat the show and books as a story instead of just a bunch of boxes to check of set pieces it's pretty clear that Rand is much closer where he is at the end of book 3 than the end of book 2. Also Mat actually is a character at this point instead of being a plot device like he is for the first 2 books. Gnoman posted:Running away from the mantle of Dragon Reborn is a major part of his character arc in Book 2. He hasn't gone through the combined growth of books 2 and 3, he's barely past the start of book 2 in terms of growth in the show. KilGrey posted:He runs away all of book 3, too. We really don’t see him until the end when he gets to Tear. It totally makes sense why they combined books 2 and 3. Rafe is right that the plot of both are basically the same. I’d rather him off on his own trying to see Logain and getting mixed up with Lanfear thank just flashes of him trying to make it to Tear as he goes nuts in the woods. Changing Mat to be more of a real character before he's freed from the dagger is one of the things that I thought the show could improve on from the books. It hasn't really panned out yet. Show Mat hasn't had any of the growth he got in the 2nd half of TDR yet.
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Oct 4, 2023 19:52
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DTurtle posted:That seems to be a very ... unique ... interpretation considering all the plot lines added in the show that were nowhere in the books. "Plot" here in the sense of broad strokes and narrative. What I mean is that they've taken the core story from the books but are not maintaining its formal elements (the pov), or the prose, or afaict most of the dialogue, etc.
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Oct 4, 2023 19:57
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This explains a lot https://twitter.com/owendanoff/status/1709629484499149079?s=20 quote:Rafe Judkins: It was a complete rewrite of the entire season. We always wanted to tell the story in season 2 of, “Mat is a hero who doesn't think he's a hero,” and I would have loved to tell the story of the three boys on the hunt for the Horn of Valere, but we didn't get to tell that story. In TV, you can never be apologetic about the story you're telling. so [since] we couldn't do that story, we wanted to lean in fully to the story of the five of the Emond’s Field Five being separate for the first time, [with] each of them on their own path.
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Oct 4, 2023 21:40
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silly to chalk it up to the actor, imo. rafe's like "we COULDN'T tell that story" and it's like, yeah you could. you already did a six month mostly unexplained timeskip, you could absolutely be like "mat rejoined us in that time but he's still kinda twitchy from the dagger stuff and the other boys feel weird and a little resentful because he, you know, ditched them". i don't think they have to apologize for the storytelling choice to separate everyone but it's not like their hand was forced, they thought it was a good idea and swung for the fences.
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Oct 4, 2023 21:54
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They couldn't tell the story because the actor wasn't there to film the last two episodes.
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Oct 4, 2023 21:56
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rafe says he wanted to do the three boys hunting the horn, but that he couldn't because the actor was gone in season 1. i'm saying the actor being gone in season 1 is irrelevant to that, because they already teleport the actor from where he was at the end of season 2 into the hands of liandrin. they could've put him anywhere they wanted at the start of season 2 and no one would've batted an eye because everyone was extremely aware that season 1 got hosed by covid.
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Oct 4, 2023 21:58
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Everyone pays that much attention to the goings on of TV shows?
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Oct 4, 2023 22:04
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I feel like a lot of discussions are gonna be rendered moot tomorrow one way or another. Either the s2 finale kicks rear end or it flops. If it's great, all sins forgiven. If not, endless could have beens.
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Oct 4, 2023 22:37
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I feel like a lot of discussions are gonna be rendered moot tomorrow one way or another. Either the s2 finale kicks rear end or it flops. If it's great, all sins forgiven. If not, endless could have beens. Or maybe... what might bes?
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Oct 4, 2023 22:56
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I always found Rand to be a really bland character in the first couple of books so nothing has really changed for me. He gets hit hard by Main Protagonist Syndrome
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Oct 4, 2023 23:23
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I wonder if they gonna give Mat the "I have never served you, Father of Lies" quote cause of his tea trip and because it's one of the best lines from the whole book. Stop leaving out cool lines, tv show!
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Oct 4, 2023 23:25
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th3t00t posted:Gnoman and Kilgrey, you both don't seem to be aware that this^ was the post I was originally responding to. I'm fully aware of what you were responding to. I just think you're straight-up wrong.
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Oct 5, 2023 01:10
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Valentin posted:rafe says he wanted to do the three boys hunting the horn, but that he couldn't because the actor was gone in season 1. i'm saying the actor being gone in season 1 is irrelevant to that, because they already teleport the actor from where he was at the end of season 2 into the hands of liandrin. they could've put him anywhere they wanted at the start of season 2 and no one would've batted an eye because everyone was extremely aware that season 1 got hosed by covid. Yes in a very specific use of the word "had to" that's true. They could have. They also could have all quit making TV and started doing underwater basket weaving.
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Oct 5, 2023 01:43
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Oh so that's what they mean when they're talking about weaving with threads of water.
Eighties ZomCom fucked around with this message at 10:44 on Oct 5, 2023 |
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Oct 5, 2023 09:52
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