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Hong XiuQuan posted:There was no meaningful part of early 20th C Zionism that sought a state *and* rejected the idea of "population transfers", voluntary or not. I mean the ongoing trilemma is Israel must pick two of three: Jewish state, liberal democracy, or two-state solution. There's really no way around this. Such cutting edge commentary brought to you by The Economist. Demographic balance is also an important thing in this region of the world because of how big of a role religion plays. When Turkey invaded North Cyprus, they started all sorts of migration and incentive programs to encourage migration TRNC to legitimize their invasion. When Palestinian migration disrupted the delicate balance in Lebanon between religious groups it collapsed in civil war. Or any Sunni-Shia sectarian violence from Pakistan to Yemen. From a Western perspective these things don't feel important but religion's role being intertwined with demography and history in the Middle East goes back millennia.
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 02:19 |
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# ? Jun 8, 2024 07:25 |
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Raenir Salazar posted:I believe the onus is on you to provide specific evidence in support of your claim and not to gesture vaguely at some book whose credibility might very well be on the same level of Jung Chang. An example of a credible source might be a quote from an officially passed resolution by the World Zionist Congress for instance. Here's a sample of what Morris has to say, and whose fans you, without the slightest of critical thinking, have taken as gospel so you can feel comfortable in your ignorance: quote:"There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide - the annihilation of your people - I prefer ethnic cleansing." [source] Adenoid Dan posted:Fact checked by Reddit! Lol
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 02:31 |
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Raenir Salazar posted:Is it against international law to purchase land? The UN definition very specifically says "contrary to international law". The key thing here is the establishment of a state. You seem to be concerned that this definition would mean that generic gentrification in, say, New York or something could qualify as ethnic cleansing with this loose of a definition or I guess, more precisely, you are specifically alluding to Chinatowns and similar enclaves of minority populations that spring up when people move to places that have services in their language or someone from their extended family and such, but the key bit is that when you establish a government that comes with an implicit threat of force, if not violence in the literal sense - that's the state monopoly of violence. So, yeah, step 1 of just moving there and buying a house isn't ethnic cleansing if that's as far as it goes, but if you are only doing step 1 because you are already planning step 2 where you will establish a new government that will only permit people like you moving in and voting and otherwise participating in society then, yeah, that's actually ethnic cleansing. It's weird that you are framing it as some kind of modern thing that could happen as a result of Asian immigration when the actual historical parallel is the construction of whites-only suburbs, or just plain old American colonization where Europeans "paid" for the land they settled with the implicit threat of force if the deals weren't taken If, instead of planning from the start to establish a government that was only for and by them they instead just established a city or a neighborhood while still respecting the self-determination of their neighbors it wouldn't be an issue, but they basically used the legacy of colonialism to abuse the pre-existing population. It has all the same problems as ideas in the US that all the formerly enslaved could be sent back to Africa to establish a new state for themselves - you are dictating terms to the people who are living where you want to be and the end result is going to be no better than any other iteration of colonialism regardless of whether you put a coat of paint on it by "buying out" the people who you just spent centuries impoverishing and immiserating. BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Oct 17, 2023 |
# ? Oct 17, 2023 02:49 |
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i fly airplanes posted:I mean the ongoing trilemma is Israel must pick two of three: Jewish state, liberal democracy, or two-state solution. There's really no way around this. I had really read the trilemma as picking two of these three: - you have actual democracy - you have a jewish electoral majority - you have all the occupied lands this is more or less ... well, depressingly correct, if somewhat sanitized. if they take the occupied lands and give actual democratic representation to everyone on the land, the jewish electoral majority vanishes. terrifyingly unacceptable if you happen to be a religious ethnonationalist state that desires to purely preference followers of judaism! if they leave the occupied lands alone and just let it be its own thing, that actually solves everything but makes jewish ethnonationalists have actual tantrums over not being allowed to continue genociding and taking every inch of palestine for themselves, so I guess we can't have that either! if they want to keep the jewish electoral majority AND control all the occupied lands, they'll just have to continue Adjusting Democracy™ to ensure permanent minority rule of those in the acceptable ethnic and orthodox categories, and then they just won't actually be a democracy even in concept, it'll be a weirdly schizophrenic kahanist shell of its former self with extremely strict prohibitions on not being a correctly jewish kind of person
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 02:58 |
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Neurolimal posted:Without any intention of being rude: No, not at all. Put into more words: 'islamic terrorism' is completely benign in nature compared to other guerilla groups seeking to affect change. The Serbian nationalist who shot the archduke and the hijackers who flew a plane into the WTC largely share the same formula in their strife; a large state agitating them to the point that they adopt an ideology that directs them to enact violent change. The proliferation of 'islamic terrorists' is purely a result of our multi-decade long adventures in the region fostering multiple groups with an invested disdain for the West. If we were to have spent the last four decades assaulting Europe in the same way that we have the Middle East, we'd be talking about 'catholic terrorists' right now. I think this is a rather important misunderstanding of nationalism. The Serbian nationalist who shot the archduke is a very important example here, because Archduke Franz Ferdinand was a reformer who sought to end the oppression of minority groups within the Austro-Hungarian Empire, with plans to grant them greater autonomy and equal status while also resolving various grievances they had. In fact, Serbian nationalists like Gavrilo Princip targeted him specifically because they feared that he might put an end to the oppression. Their stance was somewhat similar to accelerationism: they wanted Austro-Hungarian oppression of Serbs to continue because they thought that increasing unrest in Bosnia would create opportunities to break the region away from Austro-Hungarian rule (and absorb it into a hypothetical Greater Serbia). Rather than "ending the oppression of Serbs", their goal was "the incorporation of all Serbian or South Slavic lands into a Greater Serbia or Yugoslavia". Reforms that addressed the issues faced by Bosnian Serbs were a threat to their ambitions to spark a Bosnian revolution or an Austrian strike against Serbia. Either one would give Serbia an excuse to intervene, and in turn Russia would almost certainly intervene in any war between Serbia and Austria-Hungary, creating an opportunity for Slavic lands to be broken off from Austria-Hungary if the resulting war went well for Russia and Serbia. Reforms that had a chance of placating the Bosnian Serbs and bringing them into peaceful existence with the rest of the empire were therefore to be opposed. Nationalist movements often spring from oppression, but that doesn't mean that they're dedicated solely to ending oppression. Irredentism can become a goal in its own right rather than a means to an end, often to the point of prioritizing dreams of national unification over the actual well-being of the people. For example, the militant Zionist terror group Lehi repeatedly attempted to ally with the Nazis, believing that the British were greater enemies of the Jewish people than the Nazis were. They were quite convinced that Hitler's nationalist ambitions made him a kindred spirit who understood them far better than the British would, and felt that if they helped the Germans fight the British, Hitler would gladly help them found a fascist Jewish state in Palestine and send every single European Jew there.
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 03:08 |
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Giggs posted:Jesus Christ. Morris isn't a historian, he's a journalist. Pappe holds a PhD in history. Morris is frequently criticized for ignoring arab sources and solely using cherry-picked Israeli sources. Morris has whitewashed genocide (see below). Morris has been explicitly called a racist by Pappe. Your reddit expert (named ghostofherzl lmao) frames Pappe as some sort of subjective, history-as-fiction writer, when in reality that whole issue stems from Morris claiming Pappe is letting his politics interfere with his interpretation of history since he disagrees with Morris' insane racist nonsense. To add to this, per Pappe himself, a key point of disagreement between himself and Morris is on the value of oral history versus documentary history. He lays out his own practices and standards for his historical research, and addresses the weaknesses of relying solely on documentary evidence. Now, I'm also absolutely certain he has a personal axe to grind with Morris, but he's a smart enough guy to lay out his argument very, very well. Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up4-nJo1RGs (I'm sorry it's a one-hour video, but to be fair, it's a very good one-hour video on the issue) It also covers the nature of Israel (and Canada, Australia, the US and South Africa) as settler-colonial states and how that lends itself to ethnic cleansing, and builds on the idea that the point of a system is whatever it does, in addition to providing evidence that prominent Zionists did explicitly intend ethnic cleansing on or around the foundation of the Israeli state. It's an open-and-shut case: Israel required ethnic cleansing, Israel did ethnic cleansing, and as he presents, Israel intended to do ethnic cleansing.
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 03:09 |
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Nov 5, 2023 |
# ? Oct 17, 2023 03:19 |
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Willo567 posted:https://twitter.com/SecBlinken/status/1714074816272089510
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 03:24 |
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mannerup posted:just wanted to thank you two for providing additional context, its not my particular research subfield so I was unaware of the extent of their disagreements One other thing that Pappe lays out, and I think it's crucial to understanding the current situation, is that a good deal of the ethnic cleansing of urban Palestine was done by saying "you have to leave for your safety right now, you'll be allowed back." And then, shockingly, they weren't allowed back. So when people ask: well, why are Hamas and Egypt so reticent to let people flee for their safety, and why are many Palestinians not willing to do it? The reason is that Israel's record is heavily against it when they say "you have to leave for your safety." Some settler is gonna set themselves up in your place and you ain't never going back. They've pulled this trick before and they will of course try it again. EDIT: And more generally, settler-colonial governments including my own are loving masters of saying, "do this, we'll help you out and it's really for your own good" and it NEVER IS! It's bullshit 100% of the time!
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 03:29 |
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Is this supposed to make me think that they actually have a plan to provide humanitarian aid? Blinken's announcement doesn't even Gove any details on how it'll be implemented or when it will
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 03:32 |
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Would anybody be able to point to me some good reading regarding the earliest recorded instances of Zionist-settler/Palestinian friction pre-1917? I see a lot of references to certain instances in some of my researching(IE various references to Jewish guards being killed around 1903) but cant find much deeper than that and am trying to be keenly aware of bias regarding early history. Something Im trying to get a better of understanding of is sort of where these things initially started to tip very early in regards to attitudes around settlers/Zionists starting to purchase land.
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 03:41 |
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AccountSupervisor posted:Would anybody be able to point to me some good reading regarding the earliest recorded instances of Zionist-settler/Palestinian friction pre-1917? What exactly do you mean by "Zionist-settler" here? Zionists were still seriously looking at Mississippi and Uganda until something like 1905 and until the British Mandate it wasn't particularly serious. Migrations before this had some Zionist elements but they tended to be more about fleeing Eastern European pogroms than anything aspirational.
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 04:11 |
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Willo567 posted:https://twitter.com/SecBlinken/status/1714074816272089510 Humanitarian aid is standard, but how that humanitarian aid actually makes it to people is a question, as it's often quite difficult to deliver aid in an active warzone where seemingly random buildings are getting airstriked on short to no notice, particularly when Israel is able to place strict conditions on it and often demands extensive checks and monitoring with the excuse that it's to prevent Hamas from siphoning it off. Just look at how much bureaucracy goes into importing construction materials into Gaza, via a deal brokered by the UN and US between Israel, Hamas, and Fatah: https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2015/12/israel-gaza-cement-housing-shortage-youngsters-tunnels.html quote:While everybody has been focusing their attention on the violent uprising in the West Bank, the situation in the Gaza Strip has been glossed over and its residents forgotten. However, the constant shortage of electric power continues, with intermittent outages occurring throughout most of the day. Water supply is also sporadic, and what flows through the pipes is mostly not potable. Most water wells in the Gaza Strip have become either saline or contaminated. Private companies, which purify water and sell and distribute it in large containers to households, are making a bundle. That's Al-Monitor, which tends to lean toward the pro-Palestinian side of things, but I've found corroborating bits from less opinionated sites as well. For example, it's mentioned by this LA Times article about the rubble scavengers and recyclers of Gaza: quote:GAZA CITY — When the sunlight hits the right angle, the clouds of dust turn golden, swirling in gentle eddies around the concrete crusher before wafting toward the fence separating Gaza from Israel.
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 04:51 |
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Wow, $368 million almost a decade ago (I imagine that number is lower now post-Trump and the current Biden administration) while we're gearing up to send $10 billion in military aid to Israel. How magnanimous of the US.
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 05:05 |
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Main Paineframe posted:Humanitarian aid is standard, but how that humanitarian aid actually makes it to people is a question, as it's often quite difficult to deliver aid in an active warzone where seemingly random buildings are getting airstriked on short to no notice, particularly when Israel is able to place strict conditions on it and often demands extensive checks and monitoring with the excuse that it's to prevent Hamas from siphoning it off. Just look at how much bureaucracy goes into importing construction materials into Gaza, via a deal brokered by the UN and US between Israel, Hamas, and Fatah: fascinating article on salvaging, but also makes me queasy
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 05:57 |
BadOptics posted:Wow, $368 million almost a decade ago (I imagine that number is lower now post-Trump and the current Biden administration) while we're gearing up to send $10 billion in military aid to Israel. How magnanimous of the US. $343 million in 2022, 50% higher than Germany in second place with $202.
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 06:17 |
NBC Nightly News reported that Hamas was willing to release foreign captives without demands, “if conditions allowed”. Is there any idea what those conditions might be beyond “stop dropping bombs”?
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 09:25 |
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Local media (in Scandinavia) said IDF reports "preparations for a land operation". What does this mean in practice? Are they actually closing up shop and killing the rest of Palestines population, or are we looking at something else?
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 09:56 |
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Tias posted:Local media (in Scandinavia) said IDF reports "preparations for a land operation". What does this mean in practice? Are they actually closing up shop and killing the rest of Palestines population, or are we looking at something else? The IDF is planning to invade Northern Gaza. I guess that's supposedly where "Senior Hamas" leadership resides. The invasion was on hold due to weather and now it's delayed again due to Biden's visit. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 10:12 on Oct 17, 2023 |
# ? Oct 17, 2023 10:01 |
Triskelli posted:NBC Nightly News reported that Hamas was willing to release foreign captives without demands, “if conditions allowed”. Is there any idea what those conditions might be beyond “stop dropping bombs”? Here's the coverage. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-rcna120545
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 10:10 |
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Tias posted:Local media (in Scandinavia) said IDF reports "preparations for a land operation". What does this mean in practice? Are they actually closing up shop and killing the rest of Palestines population, or are we looking at something else? Israel is putting in the troops for a surface attack. It's taking them a long time to do it, presumably because a- They had put most of their units elsewhere. b- They are going to use conscripts/reservists , which take a long time to re-train. c- They had no actual plan to do it this big. Why yes, this DOES sound like a 3 Days to Kyiv scenario, though time they have air supremacy. But they are going into destroyed city ruins, which is the best terrain imaginable for light infantry defence.
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 10:10 |
Discendo Vox posted:$343 million in 2022, 50% higher than Germany in second place with $202. In all candour, that’s pretty small when weighed in the balance against “unconditional support for Likud”.
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 10:13 |
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As far as I know, the IDF is specifically prepared for urban combat. Granted, it is still hard but they have the best army to do exactly that. I don't think they will be staying long either. https://x.com/harari_yuval/status/1713185138064949278?s=20 Yuval Harai, a popular historian does a phenomenal interview going over the whole situation. I wish they had a clip of that too but in the interview, the attack was designed to be violent and brutal as possible to specifically make it hurt so much there is no possibility for peace. Looks like their plan worked. Too well. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 10:18 on Oct 17, 2023 |
# ? Oct 17, 2023 10:15 |
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Comstar posted:Israel is putting in the troops for a surface attack. It's taking them a long time to do it, presumably because
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 10:19 |
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Comstar posted:Israel is putting in the troops for a surface attack. It's taking them a long time to do it, presumably because Or d: they cannot make meaningful progress into Gaza given the number of defenders, their willingness to fight to the death, the fortifications in place and the international pressure that will come as soon as the attack begins.
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 10:26 |
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There are recent videos of Hamas shooting rockets into Israel and getting almost immediately countered by israeli artillery with extreme precision. Air superiority and always having eyes in the sky should make this a fairly one sided affair, even on the ground. Because even if the israeli ground troops encounter pockets of dug in Hamas resistance, the israelis can just hunker down and wait for their artillery to obliterate the area before proceeding. Hamas has no way to oppose either israeli air or israeli artillery and israel doesn’t mind destroying the area. The moment Hamas exposes themselves they will get obliterated, which is already happening on a daily basis right now. An occupation would be a different affair altogether though Collapsing Farts fucked around with this message at 10:36 on Oct 17, 2023 |
# ? Oct 17, 2023 10:29 |
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I'd be wary of automatically assuming this will go the same way as the Ukraine conflict. Asides from air supremacy as mentioned there's also a lot of other advantages Israel enjoys that Russia doesn't. Consider Russia spending months and millions of dollars worth of cruise missiles to cause some power outages in Kyiv vs Israel flipping a switch and plunging Gaza into permanent darkness (with no water to boot) within a couple of days. Gaza is heavily dependent on its enemy in a way you really don't want to be during a war. I guess they're very different militarily. Nobody in Palestine, Hamas or anyone else, has javelins or any such nice equipment. The rubble they created by destroying entire neighborhoods are the biggest obstacle. You don't want to drive tanks into that, and infantry will get into brutal close combat. I genuinely don't know if hamas (or people who just want to defend whats left of their home) is going to defend north-Gaza to the last man, and what Israel plans to do with it once they capture it? Destroy so much of it, hoping the people won't be coming back/will be even more economically crippled for the next decades?
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 10:45 |
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Financial Times quotes current diplomatic effortsquote:...
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 11:26 |
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i fly airplanes posted:From a Western perspective these things don't feel important but religion's role being intertwined with demography and history in the Middle East goes back millennia.
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 13:04 |
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I love how sourcing to a respected journalist got punished because a mod couldn't be bothered to Google but sourcing a reddit nobody as a rebuttal to an academic in the field is a-ok.
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 13:34 |
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VitalSigns posted:I love how sourcing to a respected journalist got punished because a mod couldn't be bothered to Google but sourcing a reddit nobody as a rebuttal to an academic in the field is a-ok. Why is posting a book without describing the credentials of the author, conveying the evidence allegedly described by the book, all things that are IIRC expected by the rules when posting a tweet or an article okay when it's a whole book I don't own? The point of my reply was not "you're argument is wrong because reddit" which would be against the rules, but "hey please actually back up your claim with specifics and not just gesture vaguely at a whole book as it is unreasonable to expect me to read an entire book to figure out your argument for you." The linking to reddit is incidental and not at the core of my response, as it is just to hypothetically show that the author may not be very credible, may be biased, etc, I have no reason to know and they should establish this in addition to elaborating their argument. And as an aside saying "my argument is correct because this expert agrees with me" is the textbook definition of appeal to authority, I and anyone else here is free to argue with any expert, as is any redditor as long as their arguments stand up. This is not to post about posters but to explain how I see my post and my response to the poster I responded to.
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 13:57 |
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quote:“The Israelis say exactly the opposite: they say they’re prepared to let out people from Gaza, and a lot of them, but they’re not prepared to allow humanitarian aid in. And we’re stuck now because of this.” In what way can this be interpreted other than “The Israelis want to do an ethnic cleansing"?
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 14:10 |
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Tias posted:Local media (in Scandinavia) said IDF reports "preparations for a land operation". What does this mean in practice? Are they actually closing up shop and killing the rest of Palestines population, or are we looking at something else? Typically it means a full-scale ground invasion goes in and occupies the areas near the border, sends some raids deeper into Gaza to capture or kill some militants, destroys a bunch of infrastructure they claim was being used by Hamas, maybe wipes out a neighborhood or two just for the hell of it, and then unilaterally declares victory and pulls out before they take too many casualties. The whole thing usually lasts about two weeks.
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 14:24 |
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break-up breakdown posted:In what way can this be interpreted other than “The Israelis want to do an ethnic cleansing"? Presumably, they are going to let them back in once they are done with HAMAS. But you would be right not to presume. Although Biden signals that complete annexation of Gaza by Israel is not what America would want to see, I don't think Israel has committed to anything beyond 'destroy HAMAS'.
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 14:26 |
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Main Paineframe posted:Typically it means a full-scale ground invasion goes in and occupies the areas near the border, sends some raids deeper into Gaza to capture or kill some militants, destroys a bunch of infrastructure they claim was being used by Hamas, maybe wipes out a neighborhood or two just for the hell of it, and then unilaterally declares victory and pulls out before they take too many casualties. The whole thing usually lasts about two weeks.
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 14:27 |
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I think you have to be wilfully ignorant at this point to not see that Israel as a state is specifically a result of, and focused on, ethnic cleansing.
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 14:32 |
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break-up breakdown posted:In what way can this be interpreted other than “The Israelis want to do an ethnic cleansing"? The only reason to be so opposed to letting in any kind of aid is because you want the people who live there to no longer live there and you don't really much care how that happens.
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 14:42 |
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Paladinus posted:Presumably, they are going to let them back in once they are done with HAMAS. That's a good one since they won't allow any other Palestinian refugees to return, not sure why they'd be starting now
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 14:42 |
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Paladinus posted:Presumably, they are going to let them back in once they are done with HAMAS. But you would be right not to presume. Although Biden signals that complete annexation of Gaza by Israel is not what America would want to see, I don't think Israel has committed to anything beyond 'destroy HAMAS'. I don’t see how anyone who has read about the Nakba could presume they’d let them back in.
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 14:43 |
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# ? Jun 8, 2024 07:25 |
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Israel would love to just shove the Palestinians in Gaza into the lap of other country so they no longer have to deal with them, but that’s not happening Instead they are going to just wipe out as many as they think they can get away with before the international community gets upset
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# ? Oct 17, 2023 14:44 |