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Dapper_Swindler posted:so nurgle makes you a doom poster virus. Pretty much. I think we all know someone who is that kind of doomer who is comfortably numb and just accepts the sliding down into a further hell as a given. Not a good place to be. Dapper_Swindler posted:yeah, khorne doesnt care and slanessh is just empty hedonism or excessive passion with out passion. tzeech i think just views everything as long game and everyone is transactional. Nurgle loves you(and maybe he really thinks he does sorta) but he is a gaslighting abuser Khorne is a more blood thirsty zealotry or more accurate "I don't believe anything I'm just here for the violence" type. But any extremist will do as long as they make the blood flow.
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Oct 24, 2023 04:14
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I just finished watchers of the throne: the regent's shadow, and it was great- really recommend both that and the vaults of terra series. Chris Wraight does a fantastic job with both, and the same goes for the voice actors. Loved all the political intrigue, and lmao the officio assassinorum is terrifying
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Oct 24, 2023 13:38
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All of Wraight’s Terra stuff is top notch
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Oct 24, 2023 13:57
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NihilCredo posted:
i dont think that fully bad if you wrote it correctly. one of my favorite things about twice dead king is the main dude has basicaly broken up his brain and he basicaly ends up having a disco elysium brain. if i wrote cawl id have bits of that mixed with maybe his personalities have more control then he does but the machine keeps him thinking he is always in control. isnt have basicaly a hivemind now anyway.
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Oct 24, 2023 18:00
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i dont think that fully bad if you wrote it correctly. one of my favorite things about twice dead king is the main dude has basicaly broken up his brain and he basicaly ends up having a disco elysium brain. if i wrote cawl id have bits of that mixed with maybe his personalities have more control then he does but the machine keeps him thinking he is always in control. isnt have basicaly a hivemind now anyway. Yes, "multiple personas fighting for control" is a classic of pulp literature for a reason. It lets you present inner conflict in the form of dialogue, which is a *lot* easier to both write and read. Cawl is not written that way in Genefather, however - it's not done "correctly", as you said. We don't see e.g. Sedayne's personality coming to the fore, which I was kind of expecting since it's brought up very early in the book. It's more like "oh I really care for my friend and wish I could let him know in this delicate moment, unfortunately I left Basic Empathy in my room so best I can do is the same loving used car salesmen dialogue I've been using all book". I suspect Haley might have intended it as a cover for his inability to write a convincing 10k year old traumatised posthuman genius - which *is* absolutely a tall order - but it backfires and ends up lampshading it instead.
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Oct 24, 2023 20:36
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NihilCredo posted:Yes, "multiple personas fighting for control" is a classic of pulp literature for a reason. It lets you present inner conflict in the form of dialogue, which is a *lot* easier to both write and read. i mean i like alot that type of writing with mechanicus characters are like that to various degrees, their brains are so hosed up and computerfied that they can basicaly turn off emotions or put them in background running and allow them to work when they want. abbnet and whoever wrote mechanicus book and the mechanicus game make heavy use of that and it works. as a mechanicus nerd, they work best when they have some human qualities but are mostly just vaguely sociopathic computers that can pick and choose and have various weird doctrinal disputes and poo poo. it sounds more like haley just sucks at it.
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Oct 24, 2023 21:58
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Its somewhat heavily implied through Iron Hands lore that cybernetics gently caress with your soul, and the more cybernetics you have the less your soul registers to psykers.Bohemian Nights posted:I just finished watchers of the throne: the regent's shadow, and it was great- really recommend both that and the vaults of terra series. Chris Wraight does a fantastic job with both, and the same goes for the voice actors. Loved all the political intrigue, and lmao the officio assassinorum is terrifying I feel like 90% of officio assassinorum lore is them being gently caress ups, but every so often you get a bit like the mission to assassinate a Tau ethereal and them just blowing through dozens of layers of security and decoys while in an active warzone.
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Oct 24, 2023 22:08
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NihilCredo posted:Yes, "multiple personas fighting for control" is a classic of pulp literature for a reason. It lets you present inner conflict in the form of dialogue, which is a *lot* easier to both write and read. An interesting take on Cawl would be that all he has accomplished and is currently engaged in is a ten thousand year pattern of distraction to try and evade having to confront and process all that he has been through. He has all the answers for everyone's questions, except his own.
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Oct 24, 2023 22:32
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Fearless posted:An interesting take on Cawl would be that all he has accomplished and is currently engaged in is a ten thousand year pattern of distraction to try and evade having to confront and process all that he has been through. He has all the answers for everyone's questions, except his own. I've said it before. I bet Haley modelled his Cawl after MCU Tony Stark. I'm just waiting for the And I'm Belisarius Cawl *snap* moment to drop
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Oct 24, 2023 23:18
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MariusLecter posted:Pretty much. I think we all know someone who is that kind of doomer who is comfortably numb and just accepts the sliding down into a further hell as a given. Not a good place to be. That's changed over time though; Khorne was once described as the place all the blood flowed to, but then described the various characters that (knowingly or otherwise) were effectively attached to Khorne, and that was everything from the noble duellist to honourable knight, to the blood soaked beserker. Khorne isn't violence in the same way Slaanesh isn't sex. Khorne is domination, and Slaanesh is hedonism. (With Tzeentch as volatility and Nurgle as.... despair, but also rebirth.) I've always liked to plot them as a Venn; Each one overlaps with the others, with Undivided in the centre not being a 'lack' of Gods favour, but all of them, vying.
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Oct 24, 2023 23:38
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I dont know if I agree with nurgle being rebirth, or at least the rebirth aspect is not being played straight (yes yes his minions and domain is full of "life", but that almost always seems to be done for humorous, ironic effect". He's way more locked on into the inevtiable decay/entropy of life.
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Oct 25, 2023 00:04
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Like I get where the idea that he is rebirth comes from, but hes like locked into that point of natural decay/rebirth cycle where its a squriming corpse of maggots and never really gets beyond that point, which imo highlights the fact that thats all he gives a poo poo about. While still being able to be a little poo poo and go "Well you see I am just the natural way of things you cant have life without death" or whatever.
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Oct 25, 2023 00:09
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Liber Chaotica made the point that Nurgle is associated with hope/despair, but especially the latter as he is fundamentally an entropic force the same as the other big three chaos gods.
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Oct 25, 2023 00:28
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Yeah but the hope he provides is almost always as a relief/release from the poo poo he causes. Its nurgle 101 to cause a massive, painful plague and go "The pain stops if you worship me"
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Oct 25, 2023 00:34
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Telsa Cola posted:Yeah but the hope he provides is almost always as a relief/release from the poo poo he causes. It's even worse than that. Nurgle 101 is "You stop caring so much about how badly it hurts if you worship me." The Ruinous Powers are, as the name implies, ruinous.
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Oct 25, 2023 01:19
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Ive come to think of Slaanesh as being about addiction. It doesn't care if you enjoy the sensation or not, it's that eternal, gripping NEED that matters.
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Oct 25, 2023 01:29
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Slaneesh is excess/pursuit of sensation. You do a thing, it feels good but you get numb to it so you need more of the thing. Then when you piss off Slaanesh they flip the numb switch off and you basically die from sensory overload. There's a line somewhere where a chaos marine basically has an exposed nervous system and it feels amazing up until the point they fail in someway and Slaanesh pulls the warp/chaos magic out of that situation and they die from sensory/pain overload. This is also why pleasure cults get real weird after starting with drugs/orgies.
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Oct 25, 2023 02:07
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The four really make more sense in the context of their paired opposite. Nurgle isn't rebirth, it's festering stagnation. It's not despair itself, it's the comfort in abandoning all agency. Resigning yourself to despair. Maybe you've poo poo the bed, but didn't it feel kinda nice? Tzeench represents the opposite: pathological attempts to control all things. Plots and schemes and magical thinking. Rejection of self to the point of rebirth. It's refusing to accept any reality, and brute forcing your will to reshape it. It's control, and the satisfaction of determining outcomes. Khorne and Slaanesh are a lot less vague.
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Oct 25, 2023 10:59
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The Chaos gods represent all their loosely connected emotions but the negative ones are more powerful and/or prevalent. Still, them also being seen through their good aspects is always an interesting way to explain why people worship them
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Oct 25, 2023 11:20
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https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/10/25/the-ven-densts-return-in-a-new-black-library-tale-by-richard-strachan/ This week's Black Library news is that we're getting a new ven Densts novel. 
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Oct 25, 2023 12:06
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Chaos would be more interesting in some ways if the Chaos Gods really fulfilled their dual nature like this instead of always spiraling towards the end. Gimme a Greater Demon of perfectly balanced, thriving ecosystems from Grampy Nurgle, or a Daemonette of Artistic Inspiration that didn't result in the artist skullfucking themselves in the end.
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Oct 25, 2023 14:09
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habeasdorkus posted:Chaos would be more interesting in some ways if the Chaos Gods really fulfilled their dual nature like this instead of always spiraling towards the end. Gimme a Greater Demon of perfectly balanced, thriving ecosystems from Grampy Nurgle, or a Daemonette of Artistic Inspiration that didn't result in the artist skullfucking themselves in the end. There''s nothing chaotic without the spiral towards absolute annihilation though? E: Wild Speculation: The War in Heaven and the death of all the eldar gods was actually just the 4 going mask off and absorbing shards of themselves because their Great Game reached a new level. Cegorach survived because the laughing god is actually a shard of The Dark King and that is why the emperor has no sense of humor. Sextro fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Oct 25, 2023 |
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Oct 25, 2023 14:36
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habeasdorkus posted:Chaos would be more interesting in some ways if the Chaos Gods really fulfilled their dual nature like this instead of always spiraling towards the end. Gimme a Greater Demon of perfectly balanced, thriving ecosystems from Grampy Nurgle, or a Daemonette of Artistic Inspiration that didn't result in the artist skullfucking themselves in the end. That's fine for another setting, but not for 40K. Chaos is all bad, all the time. Chaos is the Primordial Annihilator, the corruptor, the poisoner, the torturer, and takes glee in all these things. Chaos can grant gifts to its followers, of course, but always does so in the interest of causing further pain and suffering. Chaos is never benevolent. It may uplift one person, but always so that that person can use their power to sow more ruin. To a slave on an Imperial factory-world, getting that taste of power and relief of their own suffering may be worth causing others to suffer even more. It's a very plausible devil's bargain. But they are still bargaining with the devil, who is pure evil and who breaks their bargains at their whim. The Chaos gods even having a dual nature is basically fanfiction at this point, they've been portrayed as pure evil for decades now.
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Oct 25, 2023 14:43
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DaysBefore posted:The Chaos gods represent all their loosely connected emotions but the negative ones are more powerful and/or prevalent. Still, them also being seen through their good aspects is always an interesting way to explain why people worship them Who, who actually sees them like that though.
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Oct 25, 2023 14:45
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Sextro posted:There''s nothing chaotic without the spiral towards absolute annihilation though? Yes. For me the 40K Universe having 'Only Bad Endings' as part of the basics of the setting is part of the core appeal. The Empire is unbelievably cruel and all possible escapes are doomed. Its what separates it from Star Wars for me.
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Oct 25, 2023 14:51
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Telsa Cola posted:Who, who actually sees them like that though. The other side of the coin of the people who see the Imperium as a utopian society. If I had even the slightest artistic talent I'd redo the "Wow, cool space empire!" sketch but with the Chaos Gods instead of the Imperium's representatives.
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Oct 25, 2023 14:53
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Kylaer posted:That's fine for another setting, but not for 40K. Chaos is all bad, all the time. Chaos is the Primordial Annihilator, the corruptor, the poisoner, the torturer, and takes glee in all these things. Forty years of the exact same 'these are the evil guys who love being evil' is very boring Kylaer posted:The other side of the coin of the people who see the Imperium as a utopian society. ??
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Oct 25, 2023 14:54
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look, they have healthcare ok
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Oct 25, 2023 14:57
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OPAONI posted:Yes. For me the 40K Universe having 'Only Bad Endings' as part of the basics of the setting is part of the core appeal. The Empire is unbelievably cruel and all possible escapes are doomed. Its what separates it from Star Wars for me. I actually see it as incredibly like Star Wars, in that the only hard and fast rule is that "nothing ever ends, not really".
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Oct 25, 2023 15:00
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DaysBefore posted:Forty years of the exact same 'these are the evil guys who love being evil' is very boring They are literally that though and almost all naunce with them has been basically been shown as a thin veneer for them to get what they want which is ultimately burning everything down. Like, Im sorry you find that boring I guess but that is literally the view the texts support.
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Oct 25, 2023 15:03
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Telsa Cola posted:They are literally that though and almost all naunce with them has been basically been shown as a thin veneer for them to get what they want which is ultimately burning everything down. Cool
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Oct 25, 2023 15:05
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I've seen forums get bogged down into a hundred pages debating whether 40k and Chaos specifically could benefit from being more morally complex. Interesting points to make but both sides are too entrenched in their way of thinking to gain much from it. I can at least anticipate that the Rogue Trader game will have an interesting Chaos storyline.
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Oct 25, 2023 15:23
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Chaos is (primarily) four broad categories of antagonist behavior within the setting. You can get as complicated or simple as you'd like within those lanes, but it's disingenuous to say that Kharn of 30k is as two-dimensional as 40k's Kharn.
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Oct 25, 2023 15:52
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The moral complexity comes from the fact that the imperium is so pointlessly oppressive and cruel that individuals continue to routinely make pacts with daemons that feed on the specific type of fear you generate when you see your children skinned alive. chaos is always, unequivocally 100% evil but it’s also sometimes very tempting, and that’s an interesting story to tell!
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Oct 25, 2023 15:53
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The thing about true evil is that if you start veering into The Great Four Centrism it just kinda muddies the abject horror of true evil. I think that we search for reasons and explanations for evil acts out of instinct, because it can either help us see the good in something or rationalize awful things by pointing to external factors and nurture rather than nature. To have something be undeniably cruel and evil makes us feel powerless, and to know that it will remain evil throughout eternity no matter what we do is an overwhelming and hopeless feeling, as it should be. In that sense, DaysBefore is a great character for a horror. We as the reader see them insist that the Four cannot be fully evil, even presenting subversive materials pointing out their "good" sides. Depending on the god in question (Tzeentch in particular would be fun), the character might even get pulled along and have gifts, visions and promises granted for their wisdom and loyalty, only to make the moment of truth and betrayal all the more horrifying. Alternatively, the character could be an agent of Chaos, knowing perfectly well that the hope they sow amongst the destitute will grow to be delicious nourishment when the hammer falls, onto skulls and whatnot.
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Oct 25, 2023 16:21
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Black Griffon posted:The thing about true evil is that if you start veering into The Great Four Centrism it just kinda muddies the abject horror of true evil. I think that we search for reasons and explanations for evil acts out of instinct, because it can either help us see the good in something or rationalize awful things by pointing to external factors and nurture rather than nature. To have something be undeniably cruel and evil makes us feel powerless, and to know that it will remain evil throughout eternity no matter what we do is an overwhelming and hopeless feeling, as it should be. Yeah, but I think part of it also is a trend in casual pop culture literature analysis to be vehemently opposed to the idea that fascist/theocratic/imperialist/whatever groups can be right about anything, ever. So you get the idea that Chaos cannot be all that bad because the Imperium is an absolute horror show but they point to chaos as a greater evil (and it is, like intrinsically).
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Oct 25, 2023 16:39
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Chaos is all the bad things about humanity, and just like in the real world, being a loving evil bastard can a) feel good, b) get you power, and c) feels like the only option when you're in an extremely lovely situation. It's just turned up to 11 because that's 40K, baby. Also it's worth noting that Moorcock is one of the big inspirations for Chaos, and in his books Chaos isn't guaranteed to be evil, and is often seen as the good side because extreme Order is stagnation and oppression that only chaos can break (I don't think this is true in 40K tho)
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Oct 25, 2023 16:40
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Telsa Cola posted:Who, who actually sees them like that though. The Norsemen north/north-west of Kislev. Then occasionally lovely treatment/cultural incompatibility by Kislev/the Empire causes a bunch of them to push "y'know, those guys north of us have a point" or one of those two tribes of absolute assholes get the moderate tribes on their side and they decide to go a viking down south. This is all down to GW not nicking/pushing the idea of Law when they nicked the idea of Chaos from Michael Moorcock, anyway. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 1st edition mentioned Gods of Law in one book but it never really got any further. It went more with human gods other than Sigmar and Ulric which are the ones that see more relevance in the wargame.
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Oct 25, 2023 16:41
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Guys? I don't think Malal ever really went away. I think he's in this thread, posting with us right now....
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Oct 25, 2023 16:44
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Telsa Cola posted:Yeah, but I think part of it also is a trend in casual pop culture literature analysis to be vehemently opposed to the idea that fascist/theocratic/imperialist/whatever groups can be right about anything, ever. So you get the idea that Chaos cannot be all that bad because the Imperium is an absolute horror show but they point to chaos as a greater evil (and it is, like intrinsically). yeah i mean the only reason the imperium even remotely makes sense diegetically is if there’s an even worse horror out there it’s protecting people from. without the external threat of chaos the imperium could never survive, that type of callousness and brutality is absolute poison to governments. the tragedy of the 41st millennium is that humanity has reacted to the real, existential horror of Chaos by creating something nearly as bad, but just barely not bad enough to completely collapse.
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Oct 25, 2023 16:48
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