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Agnosticnixie posted:fwiw the Andorians got some of that issue (partially because the TNG showrunners after Roddenberry hated the idea of reintroducing even an Andorian side character, even though TVH showed you could absolutely make the andorian makeup look good if you put some love into it) - 
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Nov 12, 2023 00:09
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Arivia posted:I'm gonna defend the showrunners a bit: it might not feel like they're that interested in building up the world, but they're not fans, they're workers. Like, they care and they want to do well, but they're working on scripts and production and everything day after day, week in week out in a 3/4ths of the year marathon where they're scrambling to get an episode of an extremely involved sci-fi show out weekly. Star Trek has had some really, really dedicated creatives who really care about getting it right, and largely during the "classic" period they did pretty well. So I'm honestly not gonna bang on them for not spending a lot of time doing the nitty-gritty of Vulcan or Andorian or Romulan culture because frankly, the actual shows don't have that time or energy, they've got to produce an episode that most of the time someone channel flipping can sit down and watch and enjoy plot and characters in ~45 minutes. Yeah I was going to say something similar. Ultimately they're storytellers, not RPG world builders and it's their job to make good 45 minute dramas, not portray a meticulously constructed and perfectly consistent world. It's kinda cute Lower Decks is trying to do that more but it's also very much a companion piece to the shows it's built on and it couldn't stand up in its own in the same way any of those shows did
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Nov 12, 2023 00:33
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zoux posted:*the most atrocious andorian makeup job across all of trek* Yeah that one is what you get when you mostly put spite towards the fans who think an andorian in the recurring cast would be cool into it
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Nov 12, 2023 01:09
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Agnosticnixie posted:Yeah that one is what you get when you mostly put spite towards the fans who think an andorian in the recurring cast would be cool into it I think you might be over-ascribing motivations there.
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Nov 12, 2023 01:11
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I always forget about that guy being in the flintstones.
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Nov 12, 2023 01:20
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that pic is from the fuckin flinstones
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Nov 12, 2023 01:26
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I watched Broken Bow parts 1 and 2 last night for a change of pace since Voyager was already feeling kind of stale to me. I genuinely liked it despite the characters being incredibly flat. I think they nailed the aesthetic of what early Starfleet should have looked like, merging modern day technology with elements of future Star Trek tech. The tensions between the Vulcans and the Humans was excellent. I kind of get the impression that the Vulcans are so out of tune with their own emotions that the Humans genuinely scare them, but because they only see things from their own perspective, they don't get that Humans benefit from the emotions in ways that Vulcans don't. It almost seems like the TOS and later Vulcans are an explicit reaction to the first century of Human-Vulcan relations. They had to double down on the logic because Humans were constantly making them want to pull their hair out and go goblin mode on the bridge of starships. Later Vulcans are much more accepting that "this is just how Humans are". Edit: Whoops, got the name wrong. Atlas Hugged fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Nov 12, 2023 |
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Nov 12, 2023 02:33
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BonHair posted:Vulcans are also supposed to be mysterious and, in a sense, superior to humans, which makes it harder to write compelling lore. If their society is truly better and more enlightened than ours, it's hard for one of us to imagine it basically. But Klingons are just big angry dudes, no problem writing that. And also more fun.
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Nov 12, 2023 02:45
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Atlas Hugged posted:I watched Broken Arrow parts 1 and 2 last night for a change of pace since Voyager was already feeling kind of stale to me. I genuinely liked it despite the characters being incredibly flat. I think they nailed the aesthetic of what early Starfleet should have looked like, merging modern day technology with elements of future Star Trek tech. The tensions between the Vulcans and the Humans was excellent. I kind of get the impression that the Vulcans are so out of tune with their own emotions that the Humans genuinely scare them, but because they only see things from their own perspective, they don't get that Humans benefit from the emotions in ways that Vulcans don't. Broken Bow. Broken Arrow is a hilariously awful John Travolta movie.
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Nov 12, 2023 02:52
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Timby posted:Broken Bow. Whoopsie doodles. Also, it kind of felt like Broken Bow strongly implied that the Vulcans were more or lesson colonizing Earth for their own purposes. The Humans talk about "independence" and "freedom" a lot, which I think were just supposed to be shibboleths for American culture that the audience could latch onto, but textually it makes the relationship between the Humans and Vulcans come across as a lot less mutually beneficial.
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Nov 12, 2023 02:55
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Though there also a Broken Arrow, Oklahoma! It is a terrible place. The Klingons are welcome to it.
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Nov 12, 2023 03:03
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I've always thought Broken Bow was on the upper end of Star Trek pilots. Emissary and SNW's (which confusingly enough is also called Strange New Worlds) are up there too.
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Nov 12, 2023 03:28
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Lord Hydronium posted:I've always thought Broken Bow was on the upper end of Star Trek pilots. Emissary and SNW's (which confusingly enough is also called Strange New Worlds) are up there too. I'm legitimately angry that it's as good as it is because I've heard that at best I have two terrible seasons ahead of me and maybe 2-3 of kinda ok ones after that. I'll probably go back to Voyager though since Archer is more effective at putting me to sleep than weed is.
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Nov 12, 2023 03:32
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I don't think they really got how to do series openers until Voyager. And that one has a lot of help from DS9.
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Nov 12, 2023 03:39
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Atlas Hugged posted:I'm legitimately angry that it's as good as it is because I've heard that at best I have two terrible seasons ahead of me and maybe 2-3 of kinda ok ones after that.
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Nov 12, 2023 03:44
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Jimbone Tallshanks posted:I don't think they really got how to do series openers until Voyager. And that one has a lot of help from DS9. I don't know. I think it's overstated how bad Trek has always been at openers or first seasons. "Where No Man Has Gone Before" is fine and I thought a pretty good episode of TOS by any standard. "The Cage" is obviously rough, but I don't think anyone holds that against it given it was the very first attempt. There's enough good in it that they were able to salvage it for "The Menagerie". S1 of TOS is probably the best season. S3 shouldn't even be considered. S2 has some solid episodes and is pretty comfortable in its own skin at least. "Encounter at Farpoint" is a fine series premier for TNG. Too bad about the rest of S1. I actually don't really like "Emissary" very much. I find the line delivery stilted and off-putting. I actually like S1 of DS9 just fine. It's the pilot specifically that I wasn't thrilled by. "Caretaker" sucked. I said it. Voyager season 1 was as inoffensive at it was unremarkable. Neelix has been much worse in S2, though I recognize that some of those episodes were intended to be in season 1. "Broken Bow" has a very clear vision of what it wants to be and the tone it wants to set. I was genuinely impressed by it. I really liked "The Vulcan Hello". I haven't watched any further Discovery. "Strange New Worlds" was fine. It made me willing to give the series a chance even if it was kind of an average episode overall. If we're talking animated, then I don't really think "Jihad" is that bad of a TV episode given exactly what it is.
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Nov 12, 2023 03:56
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Knormal posted:I think Vulcan society would also probably be pretty boring to watch. Mostly just lots of Vulcans sitting around in endless debates. The ritual battles to the death are presumably very limited compared to the Klingons. Vulcans are space elves. Look how boring Tolkien elves are with a couple named exceptions.
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Nov 12, 2023 04:01
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AlternateNu posted:Vulcans are space elves. Look how boring Tolkien elves are with a couple named exceptions. There's a fine line between boring and terrifying and it's only a couple of time that either franchise nails that distinction. One of my absolute favorite moments in TOS is when regressed-Spock confronts Bones over his constant racist bullying. Dr. McCoy: Now, you listen to me, you pointed-eared Vulcan... Mr. Spock [grabbing McCoy]: I don't like that. I don't think I ever did, and now I'm sure! Leonard Nimoy is legit frightening when he delivers that line. We the audience also know that Spock could easily kill Bones if he really felt like it. This man on the best of days is barely keeping it together and if he loses his cool, people will literally die.
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Nov 12, 2023 04:07
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Atlas Hugged posted:Whoopsie doodles. AlternateNu posted:Vulcans are space elves. Look how boring Tolkien elves are with a couple named exceptions.
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Nov 12, 2023 04:16
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Nessus posted:Someone hasn't read the Silmarillion I'm well aware of the storied history of the various elf factions and their civil wars and shifting relationships with Dwarves and their battles against Morgoth's armies and all the crap with Celebrimbor and the rings and yadda yadda yadda. The problem is the Silmarillion is an history book. It doesn't engage with the characters or society. 
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Nov 12, 2023 04:22
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"Broken Bow" was great because near the end of the episode they bust out phaser guns so it was clear how committed they were to the prequel setting and also because the characters hadn't had a chance to bore the piss out of me yet e: I liked it better than Caretaker though
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Nov 12, 2023 04:29
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BonHair posted:Vulcans are also supposed to be mysterious and, in a sense, superior to humans, which makes it harder to write compelling lore. If their society is truly better and more enlightened than ours, it's hard for one of us to imagine it basically. But Klingons are just big angry dudes, no problem writing that. And also more fun. I re-read Spock’s World in the last few years, it still holds up. Maybe more so now, in that it’s about Vulcan Brexit.
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Nov 12, 2023 04:45
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Atlas Hugged posted:Leonard Nimoy is legit frightening when he delivers that line. We the audience also know that Spock could easily kill Bones if he really felt like it. This man on the best of days is barely keeping it together and if he loses his cool, people will literally die. One of my favorite moments in SNW S1 was when Spock hurled a guy halfway across the bridge with one hand. Just a quick glimpse of his terrifying strength. It also helped that Ethan Peck sold that it was actually taking some effort and physics existed.
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Nov 12, 2023 05:42
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AlternateNu posted:I'm well aware of the storied history of the various elf factions and their civil wars and shifting relationships with Dwarves and their battles against Morgoth's armies and all the crap with Celebrimbor and the rings and yadda yadda yadda. I believe the Vulcans could relate.
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Nov 12, 2023 06:13
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We Vulcans have perfected our society through the teachings of logic and we are experts on the intergalactic community. Let us take the lead as we are the natural diplomats and no Vulcan has ever acted in self-interest. Romulans? Literally never heard of them.
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Nov 12, 2023 06:33
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BonHair posted:Vulcans are also supposed to be mysterious and, in a sense, superior to humans, which makes it harder to write compelling lore. If their society is truly better and more enlightened than ours, it's hard for one of us to imagine it basically. But Klingons are just big angry dudes, no problem writing that. And also more fun. That would certainly jive with the fact that the franchise started getting into Vulcan lore again with Enterprise where the series had some kind of human-superiority complex. Nessus posted:There is an elf who gets so mad at the Devil that he goes to the Devil's fort, calls the Devil a punk, dares the Devil to 1v1 him, and permanently injures the Devil when the Devil comes out to fight him. Although their version would probably involve a lot more thermonuclear weapons, or something in the ballpark. I suspect their world might not have always been mostly desert. We do know for sure that Vulcans had some kind of mysterious history running around the galaxy and making war (probably mostly upon themselves?). Vulcans don't like to talk about it, maybe they don't even really know much, maybe they're not even originally from Vulcan and they're either from Romulus or some third place. It wouldn't be surprising if there were other lost offshoots out there. Probably it will never be elaborated on because the franchise timeline is such a mess and the Human-Romulan war is almost as awkward to talk about as the Eugenics War.
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Nov 12, 2023 08:18
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I genuinely like how exasperated T'Pol is at all times. "Who the gently caress are these loving apes?"
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Nov 12, 2023 09:06
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Timby posted:Broken Bow. Also the movie that popularized the Howie Scream. That's cinema history!
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Nov 12, 2023 16:20
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Atlas Hugged posted:I genuinely like how exasperated T'Pol is at all times. I love T'Pol's journey through the show. From "These dipshits can't keep it together five minutes without a disaster" to "Maybe their enthusiasm is slightly charming" to "honestly, sometimes I like them better than my own people" to "I'ma gently caress the blond one".
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Nov 12, 2023 18:20
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Lord Hydronium posted:I mean, you may find your opinion varies from the internet consensus. I personally enjoy Enterprise, and I think that while the first two seasons are weaker there's still good stuff and some genuinely great episodes in there. For me it's not that it's poo poo, it's just kinda boring. I never find myself going "what, that's loving stupid" it's just "Oh yea. Okay."
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Nov 12, 2023 18:24
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Voyager: The 37's. Good thing the guy they got a prison day pass or whatever also knows about 20th century automobiles. "I've never landed a starship." "Me neither. Jimbone Tallshanks fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 13, 2023 06:55
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Watching TOS - The Conscience Of The King right now. Spock is worried that Kirk is acting weird so he goes to ask Bones if he's noticed anything weird. Bones is having a long awaited drink and feeling a happy little buzz, keeps asking Spock to chill and hang out with him. Bones owns.
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Nov 13, 2023 07:39
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Jimbone Tallshanks posted:Voyager: The 37's. Good thing the guy they got a prison day pass or whatever also knows about 20th century automobiles. A better show would have kept Amelia Earhart around as part of the extended cast.
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Nov 13, 2023 09:07
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Watched the DS9 episode where Kira and Shakaar start hooking up last night and Jesus is that rough on Odo. Kira: *draped all over Odo, smelling of sex* his dick is SO big Odo Odo: okay The scenes with Quark totally not being a pal to Odo are magical though. Also Shakaar is really tall, drat.
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Nov 13, 2023 09:43
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I mean Odo’s got some strong incel vibes in that episode iirc, so he’s not exactly sympathetic. Doesn’t he literally hang out outside her quarters while Shaakar is there, trying to eavesdrop?
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Nov 13, 2023 11:33
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Big Mean Jerk posted:I mean Odo’s got some strong incel vibes in that episode iirc, so he’s not exactly sympathetic. Doesn’t he literally hang out outside her quarters while Shaakar is there, trying to eavesdrop? He does relieve a security guy posted about her quarters to stand there himself. I don't look back fondly on the trope of "if you just keep longing and longing and longing eventually she will be yours", but Odo at least concludes the episode with a relatively healthy approach, in that he puts some distance between himself and Kira.
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Nov 13, 2023 12:29
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Odo was pretty much ready to sell out the Quadrant due to "linking" for a while and has been creepy about Kira from pretty much the get go of the show. Between that and being the collaborating during the occupation certain aspects of his characters don't look good on paper. Zedd fucked around with this message at 12:41 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 13, 2023 12:39
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Odo pining for Kira is fine imo, there's nothing wrong with being down for someone who's not into you. It's just a shame they had to actually put them together at the end when it feels like it'd have been far more true to Kira to have them remain friends and more poignant for Odo to bear his longing with quiet dignity
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Nov 13, 2023 13:23
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No Dignity posted:Odo pining for Kira is fine imo, there's nothing wrong with being down for someone who's not into you. It's just a shame they had to actually put them together at the end when it feels like it'd have been far more true to Kira to have them remain friends and more poignant for Odo to bear his longing with quiet dignity Yeah, that's my take on it too.
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Nov 13, 2023 13:55
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No Dignity posted:Odo pining for Kira is fine imo, there's nothing wrong with being down for someone who's not into you. It's just a shame they had to actually put them together at the end when it feels like it'd have been far more true to Kira to have them remain friends and more poignant for Odo to bear his longing with quiet dignity They wanted him to have something to "leave behind" when he went to the link. Kira and Odo's actors didn't agree. But I sorta get the idea at least, even if it doesn't really fit. Shaakar is played by the same guy as the sex ghost in TNG but ALSO he's dracula in monster squad which everyone should watch
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Nov 13, 2023 14:04
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