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ThisIsACoolGuy posted:It's one take I've seen in the anime thread and in situations like this I've been wondering about it and I might as well ask. Talking purely up to that point and setting aside the percieved 'main three' trope, I get icing a female character to use to power up the male is a tired thing but I never really take it as sexist in situations like the Shibuya incident when minutes prior Nanami got turned into pants and the entirety of Shibuya got served in hells kitchen let alone all the male characters that died beforehand or kept getting maimed. It just felt like 'yeah one of the important characters just blew up' but like... so did several others. How many male characters are currently very important to the plot? How many are still around even if of lesser important. This attempt to associate Nanami and Nobara has been persistent in this thread but the situations are nothing alike. Nanami was a secondary character that featured in something like 17% of the manga at the time of shibuya. Nobara was featured in like 60% of the manga and I KNOW someone is going to say she was some editor mandated addition who was never a main character but she was very very prominent as a third protag during the first half. More over, what female characters are currently of importance or even useful right now? We have a potentially NB character loke Uruame, Maki, Angel, Miwa, The witch lady, and the healing teacher? Miwa and witch lady are useless. Angel was ultimately nothing.
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Jan 10, 2024 23:44
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King of Solomon posted:Let me ask you two questions. 1) Did Nobara contribute anything of value, at all, during the entirety of the Shibuya incident? 2) Are you caught up on the manga? Because for me, what happened with Nobara is - more than anything else - an early warning sign of the bad things to come. Nobara contributed as much as Manamin did in the shibuya incident as far as I recall, granted, he was on screen more but I don't remember him doing anything on Dagon's beach or beforehand. And yeah I'm mostly caught up- it's why I'm asking here instead of the anime thread as I know she hasn't shown back up or anything of the sort, Yuki trying to black hole NotGeto, and I know aside from Maki being Very Cool there's not much in terms of female leads anymore. E: Yeah like I said things aren't great currently, it's why I was trying to limit it to Shibuya Incident specifically as up to that point I didn't even bat a eye to her getting Maybe Killed
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Jan 10, 2024 23:46
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ThisIsACoolGuy posted:One question I'm genuinely asking about is why female characters like Naboara getting taken out seen as bad. People who are seriously unhappy with JJK are of the opinion that the manga treats its (notably smaller) female cast worse than its male casts in terms of impact and presentation, with most of them just ending up getting killed to make someone sad or being mostly ineffective. Maki is the strong counterpoint here but still something people feel despite Maki. People get frustrated about Nobara because she was presented in the story as one of the Big Three, which is a pretty common shonen stereotype. (Usually the doofy lead, the cooler one, and the girl.) However JJK's early stuff was generally pretty good about making Nobara feel awesome, even if not quite on the same plot level as her two sidekicks, and people were glad to see someone of her archetype who wasn't shuffled off into Healer or Girlfriend or Kidnap Bait roles. So her dying upset people because they saw one of the parts of the series that felt more unique ripped away in favor of more Dude Time. The "but she might survive" thing is probably a big contributor to it too, since it kind of takes away the ability to just go "Oh man, she's dead, that sucks." Instead the story dances around it, avoids giving any hard confirmation, and in general makes people feel like her being dead was just sidelining her, and the closer we get to the end of the series the more people feel like all that stuff either amounted to nothing or is dropped plot, neither of which people tend to look fondly upon for popular characters. It's also a larger symptom of the way the plot shifts post-Shibuya with the majority of the existing cast now dead or out of action, and more of them dropping off regularly. Nobara is a convenient shorthand for "I liked the cast and tone of the first half more than the cast and tone of the second half." Edit: Also the whole "oh she wasn't a real character/was just some random nobody" poo poo people are trying to pull now is understandably lame.
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Jan 10, 2024 23:49
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ThisIsACoolGuy posted:Nobara contributed as much as Manamin did in the shibuya incident as far as I recall, granted, he was on screen more but I don't remember him doing anything on Dagon's beach or beforehand. You forgot the part where Nanami saved Nobara from ponytail guy and killed a shitload of transfigured humans before finally getting killed. Contrast his death scene to Nobara's, he goes out like a total badass, killing monsters left and right before finally getting taken out. Nobara...does okay in a fight for a little bit before - being generous to Gege here - getting caught off guard and killed. Being less generous, Gege just had her drop her guard mid-fight against an opponent she knows is extremely dangerous, he made her look ridiculous.
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Jan 10, 2024 23:51
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ThisIsACoolGuy posted:One question I'm genuinely asking about is why female characters like Naboara getting taken out seen as bad. Nanami got turned into chunky Salsa from the waist up, he's dead. Naobito got burned but his death was confirmed. Every death except Nobara's is definitive so at this point it's annoying we are still in limbo. Just say if she died or not and move on. Maybe if she were confirmed dead her hammer could show back up like Nanami's blunt sword and someone could be using her voodoo attacks or something I don't know that sword still bothers me. I'm actually more fixated on whether Todo could be using his CT if he partnered up with someone else because at least he is still for sure alive and could be contributing to the current arc. But beyond that it's undeniable that the ladies of JJK aren't getting a good deal of things specifically in the current arc.
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Jan 10, 2024 23:54
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beyond general sidelining and fridging concerns, it's worth noting that "standard shonen trio but the girl has a cool ability and gets fights" was definitely a necessary selling point for getting some people into jjk, so it's not surprising they get annoyed when that doesn't quite pan out
Valentin fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Jan 11, 2024 |
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Jan 10, 2024 23:57
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I also think some people are just not into the constant unyielding misery-fest that current JJK is. It's part of the appeal to some people but others like the high-danger elements without the 'literally everyone in the cast gets killed/effectively taken out of the plot' that defines the current stuff. Megumi's probably going to get saved in the next chapter or two but barring a total out of left field asspull it's difficult to imagine how he can be a remotely functional human being considering his body was used to murder his sister and his mentor.
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Jan 10, 2024 23:58
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Don't forget he was the one subjected to Gojo's Infinite Void something like 2-3 times so if he does survive he'll likely be a vegetable.
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Jan 11, 2024 00:01
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ImpAtom posted:I also think some people are just not into the constant unyielding misery-fest that current JJK is. It's part of the appeal to some people but others like the high-danger elements without the 'literally everyone in the cast gets killed/effectively taken out of the plot' that defines the current stuff. Megumi's probably going to get saved in the next chapter or two but barring a total out of left field asspull it's difficult to imagine how he can be a remotely functional human being considering his body was used to murder his sister and his mentor. Not gonna lie, it kinda bugs me that they brought up the possibility of Judgeman's sword saving Megumi from Sukuna. Why didn't they consider this possibility when Megumi's sister got possessed? Even if it didn't work or they never got the opportunity because of Sukuna, they should have brought it up earlier
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Jan 11, 2024 00:07
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King of Solomon posted:Not gonna lie, it kinda bugs me that they brought up the possibility of Judgeman's sword saving Megumi from Sukuna. Why didn't they consider this possibility when Megumi's sister got possessed? Even if it didn't work or they never got the opportunity because of Sukuna, they should have brought it up earlier Higuruma wasn't with them yet(so they didn't know how his ability worked) and they didn't even have time to consider it since Sukuna took Megumi's body immediately afterwards.
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Jan 11, 2024 00:11
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RatHat posted:Higuruma wasn't with them yet(so they didn't know how his ability worked) and they didn't even have time to consider it since Sukuna took Megumi's body immediately afterwards. Alright, fair enough. That's been bugging me.
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Jan 11, 2024 00:16
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Reincarnated sorcerers don't steal the body like Sukuna does, they effectively kill the host - adding to misery. At least that's how I read it
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Jan 11, 2024 00:21
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ThisIsACoolGuy posted:One question I'm genuinely asking about is why female characters like Naboara getting taken out seen as bad. Because "two dudes and the girl" is a shounen Sacred Cow. Also Conspiratiorist posted:
I don't hold high hopes for Megumi, either.
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Jan 11, 2024 00:59
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Conspiratiorist posted:Because "two dudes and the girl" is a shounen Sacred Cow. Moreso because Nobara gave some people hope that this iteration of two dudes and the girl would feel meaningfully different. Noooooope.
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Jan 11, 2024 07:42
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King of Solomon posted:Being less generous, Gege just had her drop her guard mid-fight against an opponent she knows is extremely dangerous, he made her look ridiculous. That isn't being less generous. That's being illiterate.
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Jan 11, 2024 08:33
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Oh Snapple! posted:That isn't being less generous. That's being illiterate. Just in case I misread something, I looked for the chapter where it happened.  Illiterate my rear end, that's exactly what happened. The previous page says Mahito used his body to prevent her from noticing the switch. This still makes her look ridiculous. King of Solomon fucked around with this message at 09:41 on Jan 11, 2024 |
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Jan 11, 2024 09:38
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Uhhhh sure if you ignore the surrounding context of her realising she was fighting a clone, that she didn’t see the switch because Mahito deliberately blocked her view of the clone with his body, which works because of the tight space and that she just rounded the corner
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Jan 11, 2024 09:41
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Asuron posted:Uhhhh sure if you ignore the surrounding context of her realising she was fighting a clone, that she didn’t see the switch because Mahito deliberately blocked her view of the clone with his body, which works because of the tight space and that she just rounded the corner I edited my post to note that Mahito blocked her view and prevented her from noticing that he swapped places with his clone. Even with that context, dropping her guard is loving ridiculous dude
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Jan 11, 2024 09:46
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King of Solomon posted:I edited my post to note that Mahito blocked her view and prevented her from noticing that he swapped places with his clone. Even with that context, dropping her guard is loving ridiculous dude I mean it’s not, the context made it make sense? Did you also forget the fact she stopped worrying about his hands because she figured out she was fighting a clone? Which I also mentioned but you decided to ignore? Like if you’re gonna ignore the context surrounding how it happened to this level, there’s no point discussing it because you’re deliberately choosing to ignore things to make what you’re saying sound better
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Jan 11, 2024 09:55
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Asuron posted:I mean it’s not, the context made it make sense? Did you also forget the fact she stopped worrying about his hands because she figured out she was fighting a clone? Which I also mentioned but you decided to ignore? I'm not ignoring the context. Even if she thought she was still fighting the clone, which does not have idle transfiguration, dropping her guard mid-fight is extremely stupid, dude.
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Jan 11, 2024 09:58
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Nah it’s fine in the manga, it’s just the anime that screws up Nobara getting got by dragging it out too much.
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Jan 11, 2024 12:22
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King of Solomon posted:I'm not ignoring the context. Even if she thought she was still fighting the clone, which does not have idle transfiguration, dropping her guard mid-fight is extremely stupid, dude. It's less dropping her guard and more changing the way she fought based on the enemy. She knew she could take more risks with that enemy in exchange for doing more damage, and as a result, because she didn't notice the switcheroo, took a risk that didn't pay off. We're talking, realistically, about split second decisions, so, while it made me feel loving horrible, I don't think it's unrealistic or "extremely stupid" based on the parameters presented by the fiction. Gege could have absolutely written something else, but it's not like what they wrote was bad because it didn't make sense.
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Jan 11, 2024 12:25
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How are people more savage over this series than hero academia
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Jan 11, 2024 12:27
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They care more about this one.
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Jan 11, 2024 13:17
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:It's less dropping her guard and more changing the way she fought based on the enemy. She knew she could take more risks with that enemy in exchange for doing more damage, and as a result, because she didn't notice the switcheroo, took a risk that didn't pay off. We're talking, realistically, about split second decisions, so, while it made me feel loving horrible, I don't think it's unrealistic or "extremely stupid" based on the parameters presented by the fiction. Gege could have absolutely written something else, but it's not like what they wrote was bad because it didn't make sense. Don’t bother, that was made very clear, the narrator literally tells the reader exactly what you told them in the manga. That poster ain’t arguing in good faith. I took a look back and they also said JJK was the worst shonen series in how it treats women, in a genre where Master Roshi exists and is a popular character character trope across most shonen series , so I don’t know if they’re trying to troll or what at this point.
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Jan 11, 2024 13:31
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It makes "sense" the way Gege constructs it narratively but its also incredibly stupid. Mahitos body is a weapon and she let him slap her face. Even if he doesnt have idle transfiguration his hands were razor blades a minute ago, why would you let him touch your face? He contrived a scenario that is nit pickable to eliminate the most prominent female cast member at the time and its purely used to motivate the main male character.
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Jan 11, 2024 14:04
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She didn't let him lol.
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Jan 11, 2024 14:34
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Oh Snapple! posted:She didn't let him lol. The entire body swapping, view blocking angle and the manga literally says she did "she let her guard down against his hands"
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Jan 11, 2024 14:40
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Jerkface posted:The entire body swapping, view blocking angle and the manga literally says she did You know that letting you guard down does not mean "consciously allowed them to do it" right?
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Jan 11, 2024 14:45
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:You know that letting you guard down does not mean "consciously allowed them to do it" right? what does letting her guard down in this sense mean? you guys are nitpicking this but the manga and anime both have her not make any attempt to not get slapped in the face and the manga literally tells us why normally in a life or death fight youd expect characters to protect their vitals like say their head or whatever, but "she let her guard down against his hand" due to fighting his double and did not think getting slapped in the face was gonna be instant kill He didn't sucker punch her or hide and slap her. She sees him the whole way it's just she didn't realize it's not the clone. She was so smart the previous chapter and then did something incredibly stupid.
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Jan 11, 2024 14:50
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Jerkface posted:what does letting her guard down in this sense mean? you guys are nitpicking this but the manga and anime both have her not make any attempt to not get slapped in the face and the manga literally tells us why So like you ever play a video game where you fail to react to something an enemy does in time and get bonked for it? You're not allowing the enemy to hit you in that you're giving them permission and access to do it but you did let your guard down. There's a world of difference in intent between what the phrase letting your guard down means and what you're trying to say it meant.
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Jan 11, 2024 14:53
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Thats not what the manga or anime shows, it's not a simple case of being too slow. The manga doesn't say that.
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Jan 11, 2024 14:55
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Jerkface posted:It makes "sense" the way Gege constructs it narratively but its also incredibly stupid. Mahitos body is a weapon and she let him slap her face. Even if he doesnt have idle transfiguration his hands were razor blades a minute ago, why would you let him touch your face? He contrived a scenario that is nit pickable to eliminate the most prominent female cast member at the time and its purely used to motivate the main male character. Are you forgetting that even when she was fighting the clone above ground she was barely dodging attacks launched with it's hands? She got cut on the face by a spear hand, nearly stabbed by a porcupine ball, and cut on the shoulder by the clone's other hand. It was those three attacks alone that further gave her the clue that the clone can't use idle transfiguration. She never had such a godly reaction time that she could completely dodge any of his attacks. Then put on top of that a split second mistake based on her thinking she was fighting a clone AND seeing Itadori who is also yelling. I haven't seen the anime but the manga also clearly shows Nobara trying to block but still being touched in the face which is consistent with her above ground showings. Blocking too late to avoid contact but enough to avoid potentially fatal damage from hand slash attacks. There is nothing wrong with the scene as written.
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Jan 11, 2024 14:55
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She let her guard down in the sense that she failed to consider that the original Mahito could have been close by and that a switcheroo could have occurred. Not in the sense that during this extremely chaotic and tense split second situation she quickly weighed all her options and consciously made the decision to willfully let him touch her face because there clearly couldn't be any harm in that, right?? It's like a tennis player failing to anticipate that the other player would do some sick trick shot and losing a point because of it. Did they let their guard down? Sure. Did they lose the point because of incompetence? No, because it's a hectic, adrenaline-fueled situation where you simply don't have the time to anticipate every possible outcome.
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Jan 11, 2024 15:04
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Jerkface posted:Thats not what the manga or anime shows, it's not a simple case of being too slow. The manga doesn't say that. Good lord dude
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Jan 11, 2024 15:36
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i remember being a bit pissed that Yuki died, but thinking about it, characters with her role in the story usually get jobbed. I guess it's a bit annoying that the women get subbed into the roles where the characters are made to die, but it's better that they're around imo. nobara was killed because her power was TOO STRONG. Fugoed out
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Jan 11, 2024 15:42
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Jerkface posted:Thats not what the manga or anime shows, it's not a simple case of being too slow. The manga doesn't say that. It does though. That s what that phrase means you goofus
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Jan 11, 2024 15:53
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Nuebot posted:How are people more savage over this series than hero academia MHA is hopelessly bad, JJK has been great and can still pull off a good ending in theory
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Jan 11, 2024 15:54
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:It does though. That s what that phrase means you goofus that's not what letting your guard down means? it means you relax \ stop trying to guard against something. the manga tells us she didn't try to guard against his hand. Gege writes a scenario where you can say that makes sense. The switcharoo + getting stunlocked by yuji for some reason but it doesnt mean "she was too slow to guard" Gege tells us with an omnipotent narrator what is happening in shibuya. If she was taking mahito seriously and was just too slow he would have said so.
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Jan 11, 2024 16:07
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Jerkface posted:that's not what letting your guard down means? it means you relax \ stop trying to guard against something. this manga is terribly translated and rhe art is frequently impossible to parse as well. frankly if you want to fully understand whats happening in it youre better off waiting for the anime and learning japanese
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Jan 11, 2024 16:08
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