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nothing about what we know about his placement in the power structure suggests that he wouldn't have the power to order a guard to do something. even if the guard was ordered to not let anyone in by another powerful person, the fact that lakan says that he'll take responsibility and the fact that he's giving the guard an absolute death glare really means it's safest for the guard to just oblige.
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Feb 20, 2024 00:07
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Fangz posted:My point is that it's very different if he does not actually have the power to do that, in which case he's just blustering and wasting time knowing the guard cannot possibly agree. I don't see any indication that Lakan is *in charge* of the guard detail on a high class noble and can order them to let an unauthorised person in. Jinshi did say that Lakan was one of the few people who could challenge him politically when they were having their little 1 on 1.
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Feb 20, 2024 00:08
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sharkmafia posted:nothing about what we know about his placement in the power structure suggests that he wouldn't have the power to order a guard to do something. Dude, the guard is protecting the life of a high class noble. If Lakan can just say "yeah let this person in, I'll take responsibility" with Maomao, this means he can let through any sort of assassin. He would hold the power of life and death over Jinshi.
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Feb 20, 2024 00:09
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He's guarding the door to a ceremony, not specifically guarding the life of a high-class noble. there were like twenty or thirty people in there; he's not specifically jinshi's bodyguard.
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Feb 20, 2024 00:10
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Also generally I would say it's a lot simpler to believe that lakan actually did intend to let maomao in then to believe that the guard disobeying a direct order from someone who is clearly pissed at him and who could probably have him killed was part of an elaborate plot. did you see how that dude reacted? he was sweating buckets.
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Feb 20, 2024 00:12
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sharkmafia posted:Also generally I would say it's a lot simpler to believe that lakan actually did intend to let maomao in then to believe that the guard disobeying a direct order from someone who is clearly pissed at him and who could probably have him killed was part of an elaborate plot I don't see any evidence that Lakan "could probably have him killed". He's a random military advisor, he's not Head of the Palace guard. The show clearly also showed Maomao darting past the guard, if the show wanted to show what you think it shows it could just show the guard giving way before Lakan and letting Maomao past. The show doesn't show the guard reacting to Lakan's "order" at all, it shows instead Maomao's internal monologue considering Lakan's presence to be suspicious. And she thinks this *after* Lakan speaks to the guard. Fangz fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Feb 20, 2024 |
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Feb 20, 2024 00:17
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I can see where you're comming from. But I can't see that as a satisfying story. His inner monolouge would basically be "That idiot guard was supposed to ignore what I say and keep on blocking her. How dare he listen to me?" Like it could legimatelty be what went on here, but that's such weird writing. The guard was clearly considering wether he should do it, rather than straight up stonewalling that. And Maomao used that moment of indecission as a chance to slip by, because she couldn't risk waiting for him to make up his mind. cant cook creole bream fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Feb 20, 2024 |
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Feb 20, 2024 00:24
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He's not a random military advisor, he's by the show's own admission one of the few people that jinshi, who is pretty obviously closely related to the royal family, would hesitate to cross. If he didn't want maomao going in there, he wouldn't have told the guard to let maomao in, because given how much power he is supposed to have and how obviously terrified the guard is of him, there's a good chance the guard would just do it. Lakan has prodded jinshi and by extension maomao in the direction of various elements of this plot several times; it seemed pretty clear to me that he was also investigating it. His presence at the ceremony makes perfect sense in that context- he wants to make sure nothing happens, but he doesn't want to get directly involved- and that's likely what maomao was figuring out with that exchange. It's framed the way it's framed because maomao does not like lakan and would prefer he not be near her.
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Feb 20, 2024 00:25
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cant cook creole bream posted:I can see where you're comming from. But I can't see that as a satisfying story. His inner monolouge would basically be "That idiot guard was supposed to ignore what I say and keep on blocking her. How dare he listen to me?" But the idiot guard didn't move at all. If you look at the episode, he does not say to let Maomao in! He says "At any rate, why don't you just go ahead and do as the girl says?" I.e. stop the ceremony. sharkmafia posted:Lakan has prodded jinshi and by extension maomao in the direction of various elements of this plot several times; it seemed pretty clear to me that he was also investigating it. His presence at the ceremony makes perfect sense in that context- he wants to make sure nothing happens, but he doesn't want to get directly involved- and that's likely what maomao was figuring out with that exchange. It's framed the way it's framed because maomao does not like lakan and would prefer he not be near her. How exactly is Lakan supposed to be making sure nothing happens from outside the building? Fangz fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Feb 20, 2024 |
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Feb 20, 2024 00:30
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you're splitting hairs. maomao clearly wanted to be let in, and that's what the guard is stopping. does lakan's plot also involve assuming the guard will interpret his words in the most literal possible sense, and if he doesn't, his plot is ruined?
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Feb 20, 2024 00:34
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sharkmafia posted:you're splitting hairs. maomao clearly wanted to be let in, and that's what the guard is stopping. does lakan's plot also involve assuming the guard will interpret his words in the most literal possible sense, and if he doesn't, his plot is ruined? Well, firstly his plot is not ruined. Even if Jinshi survives he's positioned himself to put him in his debt.Secondly, like I said, I still find your assumption that Lakan is in a position to order around guards in charge of the safety of people connected to the royal family to be tenuous in the extreme. Yes, he's in a position where Jinshi has to be wary of him - which is, if anything, even more reason for guards to *not follow his orders*! He's not in charge of palace security and he's provided no reason to let Maomao through. It would be like Mitch McConnell being able to re-arrange the white house security detail. EDIT: also if a precedent is established that guards protecting the royal family should follow his orders, no matter how bizarre, without question, then any future assassination attempts would be far easier. Fangz fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Feb 20, 2024 |
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Feb 20, 2024 00:39
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Fangz posted:Well, firstly his plot is not ruined. Even if Jinshi survives he's positioned himself to put him in his debt. Secondly, like I said, I still find your assumption that Lakan is in a position to order around guards in charge of the safety of people connected to the royal family to be tenuous in the extreme. Yes, he's in a position where Jinshi has to be wary of him - which is, if anything, even more reason for guards to *not follow his orders*! He's not in charge of palace security and he's provided no reason to let Maomao through. It would be like Mitch McConnell being able to re-arrange the white house security detail. Did you, like, miss the part where the guard was terrified when he realized who Laken was?
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Feb 20, 2024 00:40
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Nitrousoxide posted:Did you, like, miss the part where the guard was terrified when he realized who Laken was? No, but it doesn't place him in a position of command.
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Feb 20, 2024 00:42
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The way I see it is that Lakan probably has near zhuge Liang status, where he is recognized as such a military strategist talent that this bleeds over into having a lot of political pull.
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Feb 20, 2024 00:46
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DeadFatDuckFat posted:The way I see it is that Lakan probably has near zhuge Liang status, where he is recognized as such a military strategist talent that this bleeds over into having a lot of political pull. More like Sima Yi, given he's clearly disliked and mistrusted by e.g. Jinshi.
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Feb 20, 2024 00:48
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Yeah, fair enough
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Feb 20, 2024 00:49
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Fangz posted:It would be like Mitch McConnell being able to re-arrange the white house security detail. If some staff worker came up to the guard and said that there's a bomb in the building, I better hope McConnell taking him serious would be enough to warrant action.
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Feb 20, 2024 00:53
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cant cook creole bream posted:If some staff worker came up to the guard and said that there's a bomb in the building, I better hope McConnell taking him serious would be enough to warrant action. Not enough to let the staff worker just walk in there, bypassing security, I would hope.
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Feb 20, 2024 00:55
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Fangz posted:Well, firstly his plot is not ruined. Even if Jinshi survives he's positioned himself to put him in his debt. Secondly, like I said, I still find your assumption that Lakan is in a position to order around guards in charge of the safety of people connected to the royal family to be tenuous in the extreme. Yes, he's in a position where Jinshi has to be wary of him - which is, if anything, even more reason for guards to *not follow his orders*! He's not in charge of palace security and he's provided no reason to let Maomao through. It would be like Mitch McConnell being able to re-arrange the white house security detail. I suspect that his plan was to put himself in Maomao's debt, arranging everything so that she'd figure out just enough to try and stop the assassination but being stymied right at the end due to protocol and decorum preventing everyone else from acting in time. If he seemingly tried to use his authority to assist her then that would shift suspicion away from him and make it look like he was on her side, except oops she literally and figuratively sidestepped protocol and decorum
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Feb 20, 2024 00:57
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Honestly Maomao finding out was a massive stroke of luck. She went to the library to do research and the librarian just happened to mention the pillar. Whether Lakan is nefarious or not, it's hard to see anyone planning on Maomao figuring out just in time. If Lakan was investigating as well, and he has the degree of power certain people seem to think he does, then really it would make the most sense for him to physically put himself inside the room so he can observe if anything seems amiss. If he had at least some pieces of the clues, it would point to some issue with the ceremony, so how does he expect to do anything from outside the building? The two dead guys were in charge of the ceremony itself, the artifact theft pointed to ceremonial items, none of it pointed to anything you can observe from the outside. The only explanation would seem to be that he came to the same epiphany as Maomao at almost the same time from some other direction, which as Maomao says, is suspiciously good timing. Or he knew that it was going to happen, was gonna let it happen (or knew nothing but was coincidentally there), but took action because Maomao did. EDIT: Also what do people mean, Lakan provided hints to Maomao to solve the conspiracy? The one time Lakan got Maomao involved was to find the secret formula to the low-melting point metal - in other words, Maomao's action actually *helped* the conspiracy. If Lakan didn't ask Jinshi to get Maomao involved, then there wouldn't have been a problem! Fangz fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Feb 20, 2024 |
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Feb 20, 2024 01:09
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Fangz posted:EDIT: Also what do people mean, Lakan provided hints to Maomao to solve the conspiracy? The one time Lakan got Maomao involved was to find the secret formula to the low-melting point metal - in other words, Maomao's action actually *helped* the conspiracy. If Lakan didn't ask Jinshi to get Maomao involved, then there wouldn't have been a problem! You're assuming that the part wasn't made by the deceased father. Also it's not the only time he got involved since he was the one that brought up the seaweed poisoning guy. kirtar fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Feb 20, 2024 |
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Feb 20, 2024 02:53
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Fangz posted:I don't see any evidence that Lakan "could probably have him killed". He's a random military advisor, he's not Head of the Palace guard. The show clearly also showed Maomao darting past the guard, if the show wanted to show what you think it shows it could just show the guard giving way before Lakan and letting Maomao past. The show doesn't show the guard reacting to Lakan's "order" at all, it shows instead Maomao's internal monologue considering Lakan's presence to be suspicious. And she thinks this *after* Lakan speaks to the guard. He isn't some random military advisor - he's basically one of the highest tacticians and advisors. Maomao dashed past because she knew time was of the essence and likely so did Lakan so he didn't stop her.
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Feb 20, 2024 03:03
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DeadFatDuckFat posted:The way I see it is that Lakan probably has near zhuge Liang status, where he is recognized as such a military strategist talent that this bleeds over into having a lot of political pull. this is a spoiler for next season, when lakan uses his knowledge of palace intrigue to become a club promoter and dj in modern-day japan
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Feb 20, 2024 03:06
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I'd reckon that Lakan is probably about the equivalent of a three-to-four star general, on top of being an important enough noble to mention his succession.
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Feb 20, 2024 04:32
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It is true that Lakan does not LITERALLY have the authority he is using here: that is why he says is "I'll take responsibility." "If anything goes wrong, it can be on my head." Similarly it is true that he does not have the formal authority to have that guard killed, but also nobody except probably Jinshi and the actual four consorts (and honestly maybe just the one Maomao actually worked for) in the inner palace had the formal authority to have Maomao killed, but that didn't stop Maomao from treading lightly as often as possible because many of them sure as hell had the INFORMAL authority to have her killed. Lakan can absolutely have that guard killed.
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Feb 20, 2024 04:42
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He seems like a bit of an Eminence Grise; his actual sway extends far beyond what his formal position entails.
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Feb 20, 2024 05:53
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Let's be real, most of what Lakan has done so far is waltz around the palace while bothering everyone and doing no work, and he has faced 0 consequence for this. The logical conclusion here is either he is (personally) not someone to be trifled with, or he's there due to nepotism in which case he is still not someone to be trifled with. You could make the same statements about Jinshi when he is doing nothing but mess with maomao.
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Feb 20, 2024 06:11
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We at least get the occasional sight of Jinshi handling piles of paperwork and managing problems in the inner palace. The latter of which regularly gives him an excuse to mess with Maomao, of course.
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Feb 20, 2024 08:23
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disposablewords posted:We at least get the occasional sight of Jinshi handling piles of paperwork and managing problems in the inner palace. The latter of which regularly gives him an excuse to mess with Maomao, of course. Lakan is also one of the few that knows what Jinshi actually is, which is part of why he looks down on him a bit.
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Feb 20, 2024 14:28
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Goodness... I kept seeing this thread getting more and more posts and I couldn't check on them until I watched the episode, and, wow, totally justified that everyone went overdrive. What a roller coaster... Whatever Lakan's deal is, gently caress that guy anyway.
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Feb 20, 2024 16:24
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Just chiming in to say, as a onlooker that’s only read both mangas and is watching alongside all of you, it awes me how people are either intrigued by or HATE Lakan. There’s almost no middle ground. Consider me intrigued. He’s an interesting character.
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Feb 21, 2024 04:19
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I think a lot of it stems from Maomao's own obvious dislike for the guy.
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Feb 21, 2024 04:24
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I think a lot of it stems from how in his first real appearance he casually brought up how much he wanted to rape a woman, and also ruin her life.
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Feb 21, 2024 04:26
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Not to get too far in the weeds here, but that is the most uncharitable read of what he said (even if it is the most obvious). It is completely within the realm of possibility that getting her pregnant was a mutual decision, or even that he didn't do anything initially (even though both of these range from unlikely to severely unlikely). I'm not exactly sure why he would want to go around putting the idea that he's a rapist in people's heads, but the alternative is that he went around bragging that he was a rapist so who knows.
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Feb 21, 2024 04:42
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Yawgmoft posted:Not to get too far in the weeds here, but that is the most uncharitable read of what he said (even if it is the most obvious). It is completely within the realm of possibility that getting her pregnant was a mutual decision, or even that he didn't do anything initially (even though both of these range from unlikely to severely unlikely). He literally says that he wanted to force himself on the courtesan...
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Feb 21, 2024 04:59
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Nitrousoxide posted:I think a lot of it stems from Maomao's own obvious dislike for the guy. Who doesn't Maomao distrust or dislike other than her courtesan sisters.
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Feb 21, 2024 12:19
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I don't remember the exact words used in this case, but it's not like it'd even be the first time in the series where a woman intentionally lowers their value so they could be paired with a partner that can't afford them. Like the fact that the old hag (does she have a name?) still allows him to visit says something at the very least. Perhaps it's just that he has enough money, but there's at least some line you have to draw if a customer is that bad. It's not like they're tight on money
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Feb 21, 2024 12:20
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gwrtheyrn posted:I don't remember the exact words used in this case, but it's not like it'd even be the first time in the series where a woman intentionally lowers their value so they could be paired with a partner that can't afford them. Like the fact that the old hag (does she have a name?) still allows him to visit says something at the very least. Perhaps it's just that he has enough money, but there's at least some line you have to draw if a customer is that bad. It's not like they're tight on money It's not that he has a lot of money. He has a lot of power too which goes a lot further. His money is certainly still good too, but outright banning him would probably stir up way more trouble
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Feb 21, 2024 13:21
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Also reflect on the previous episodes early on about how women would mess with their value to escape situations they did not like or to get with someone they did. It is just in this case... something went wrong with the ploy maybe? Plan: Lower Value Buy out Happy Marriage Actual: Lower Value poo poo went wrong She was reduced to low level clients and got an STD -> went nuts from the STD -> gets stabby
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Feb 21, 2024 13:27
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CommieGIR posted:Who doesn't Maomao distrust or dislike other than her courtesan sisters. Xiaolan, Gyoukuro and her attendants, (after a rocky start) quack doctor, Gaoshun, Basen, Lihaku, Luomen, and ultimately Jinshi. That's like most of the named characters. Point well taken that Maomao is generally mistrustful and that insofar as she does trust it's tinged by cynicism and jaded realpolitik, but this is as true of Pairin and co as of most of the folks on that list. I think that Maomao as a protagonist is an unreliable narrator in some interesting ways. She often deliberately cuts off her thinking about topics to avoid learning or knowing something troublesome including when thinking about her own feelings. Stack this on top of the fact that she clearly has trouble identifying and naming her and other people's feelings (in contrast with their motivations and actions, for which she's unusually perceptive if she allows herself to go there) and you have a narrator who simultaneously reveals more and less about the characters and situations than you expect.
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Feb 21, 2024 18:11
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