|
Rarity posted:- To sympathise a character who's an annoying poo poo in the first book Oh I don't think it's for lols I just don't think it's good story choices. It's hackneyed stuff.
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2024 19:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 09:39 |
|
|
Shageletic posted:Ravenson is right about the show runners doing drastic changes to the main character plots that don't seem to arise just because of various restraints. Like, why is Mat's family super lovely now? Why is Rand being taught swordship from a crazy old guy instead of one of the characters that doesn't have lot to do? And why, from the jump, was Perrin given a maudlin wife death story? The Perrin stuff I go back and forth on; the way they've taken the character has made him much more interesting than he was at this point in the books however I think that would've been true even without the fridged wife backstory. Rand's thing I think is kind of cool actually, even if it means the heron mark stuff is taking a back seat. The interactions with the senile old guy in Cairhien show go a lot to show his empathy and concern for others, and his (latent) anxiety about going mad, losing himself, etc. The change to Mat's family is baffling. It only serves to amp up the egregious self-loathing characterization of the show version. Maybe they felt like Mat also needed to come from a broken family to create another point of similarity for the three Ta'averen? I really can't wrap my head around it. CainFortea posted:The narrative of "The show is just ignoring the boys entirely" hit fever pitch on that episode in particular. I'm fine with Nynaeve being paralyzed by her block and therefore left unable to heal Rand or even fight in the big showdown with Ishamael. Very clearly a foundational piece to the next arc of her development focusing on breaking her block and also her relinquishment of her role as the "big sister" to the main group. That said, in the S2 finale she comes up with the rescue plan, her and Elayne capture a sul'dam, and then they sort of wander around until they end up at the tower for the showdown. That's it. There's not even the exit plan negotiation stuff with Bayle Domon. Shifting the events from Nynaeve and Elayne rescuing Egwene to Egwene rescuing herself undercuts a bunch of characterization for Nynaeve - she is the one who restrains Egwene from killing the suldam, which comes up later in the books and influences Egwene's development. Also Egwene killing Renna required a significant change in the whole mechanics of how a'dams work and cuts out the whole "suldam can channel" subplot completely (which is fine, since they can't cover everything). Not incomprehensible choices, but ones that are likely to create challenges later or at least additional incentive to shortcut stuff that is actually fairly core to making the story work. Mat Cauthon fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Feb 28, 2024 |
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2024 20:15
|
|
|
Not to be a total debbie downer there's a couple things the show did that I enjoyed. For example I actually liked Nynaeves test maybe even better than the book. Maybe it didn't make as much thematic sense as you mentioned but the surprise shock of it was pretty cool. The actors are great, except maybe for Perrin, casting was done well. The production design is also well done taking wild swings at city scapes and the Tower that worked. And they didn't really retreat from the full fantasy tone of the books even if they kinda charted their own path plot and characterwise.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2024 22:33
|
|
|
Mat Cauthon posted:The Perrin stuff I go back and forth on; the way they've taken the character has made him much more interesting than he was at this point in the books however I think that would've been true even without the fridged wife backstory. Mat's familial changes aren't baffling, they're there to give him a coherent through line for the first arc of the story- "Am I a monster, will I end up doing bad things like my dad, (Yes, you will, whispers the dagger and Ishy,) can I be a better person?" Book Mat may as well have been a completely blank slate before book 3, and the character is fully better for having a real reason in his background to do the things he does in the later plot lines he has. Giving a core character like Mat a foundational reason for acting the way he does later on is entirely worth altering the very very minor characters that are his parents. I think this is a portion of an overall good look at the start of the books to fix a lot of the rough edges that did exist in EOTW and so on resulting from Jordan not knowing how many books the series was going to be, what the pacing on plotlines was, etc. The show would obviously be far better off with 10-12 episode seasons to most fully flesh things out, but the character arcs are clearing being constructed with the entire series in mind, vs the kinda jarring regressions that all the main characters ran in to in the book 4-6 range when RJ clearly knew that he was in it for the long haul and that he'd move too fast with some of his characters. Perrin is probably the largest victim of this backsliding after book 4, but Rand gets a lot of it too.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2024 22:57
|
|
|
Shageletic posted:Not to be a total debbie downer there's a couple things the show did that I enjoyed. For example I actually liked Nynaeves test maybe even better than the book. Maybe it didn't make as much thematic sense as you mentioned but the surprise shock of it was pretty cool. The actors are great, except maybe for Perrin, casting was done well. The production design is also well done taking wild swings at city scapes and the Tower that worked. And they didn't really retreat from the full fantasy tone of the books even if they kinda charted their own path plot and characterwise. And you didn't even mention Lanfear's wardrobe...
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2024 23:20
|
|
|
the show makes a lot of changes but it makes neither enough to feel like its own animal nor few enough to feel like it's faithfully hitting the high points. its far bigger problem though is that the writing just doesn't exactly knock it out of the park especially when it is operating with original material (e.g. the changes to nynaeve's accepted test, which are superficially interesting in a star trek way but result in a boring and incoherent episode because the show isn't and can't be star trek and, more glaringly, because they set up her return super super super badly, just totally meaningless in a characterization way). also it's rarely firing on all cylinders; when you aren't running into problems with the writing you're running into the acting or the direction. even the wardrobe (a definite highlight at times) can also be bad or clunky or just look obviously off the rack. to their credit the one time they're really firing on all cylinders (the egwene ep) is a lot of original writing. also it's just not going to get 6-8 seasons and shouldn't be plotting that way but I try not to fault creatives for ambition Valentin fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Feb 28, 2024 |
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2024 23:42
|
|
|
Valentin posted:also it's just not going to get 6-8 seasons and shouldn't be plotting that way but I try not to fault creatives for ambition How do you plot out a show based on a finished product and not plan for a full run? You plot for 3 seasons and then holy poo poo you’ve got to invent content for a surprise fourth season?
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2024 23:54
|
|
|
You write your show to give everyone interesting things to do every season, or you move them offscreen if you can't. It's fine to write for 8 seasons. It's stupid to have perrin do nothing for two seasons as theoretical groundwork for the future. He shouldn't kill his wife if nothing in season one is going to address him killing his wife. e: VVV yes, and being highly ranked at a steaming service that exists largely in response to market trends and which doesn't have any original narrative programming past three seasons is a relatively precarious position, especially when producing a season takes two years or more. It should encourage you to try to use your time in a focused way each season given the current media environment doesn't seem to favor long-running expensive dramas at the moment. Valentin fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Feb 29, 2024 |
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2024 23:56
|
|
|
Also it's like, one of the most successful shows Amazon has ever done.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2024 23:56
|
|
|
Grundulum posted:How do you plot out a show based on a finished product and not plan for a full run? You plot for 3 seasons and then holy poo poo you’ve got to invent content for a surprise fourth season? Isn't that exactly how Babylon 5 worked?
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 00:02
|
|
|
silvergoose posted:Isn't that exactly how Babylon 5 worked? No, B5 was planned for 5 from the start. They had to cram a bit down to 4 when they didn't think they were getting the 5th, then got a surprise 5th and stretched out what was left. It mostly worked, there's some stuff that went on far too long in the final season. It's also why Ivanova isn't in the season, but is in the series finale. They already filmed it for release on season 4, then had to make the season 4 finale (which a lot of people don't like).
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 00:04
|
|
|
Ah right, I never saw it but knew it was something like that. Still, "character defining moments must be accompanied by resolutions in the same season" is not at all how I understand TV that's meant to be multi season.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 00:07
|
|
|
You don't have to resolve anything. But you should at least try to gesture at a character killing his wife in the first episode of the season by the season finale, or take a little more effort to leave someone in a conscious place of despair. also lan and moiraine's plot in s2 is literally just a loop to get them back to where they started the season. I have many questions about their overarching plan I guess is my main point
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 00:10
|
|
|
B5 had to do a ridiculous amount of on-the-spot retooling. Like losing their leading man after one season. It's insane that it worked out as well as it did.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 00:25
|
|
|
A lot of the stranger decisions at least seem like they're coming from a place of being self-conscious about the source material. I don't know if that perception of it is right or not, but that's how it feels to me. And like, I don't have a problem with them writing a different story, so long as it's good. But just by default I'm going to trust a bunch of TV writers a lot less than I trust Robert Jordan.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 00:27
|
|
|
Data Graham posted:B5 had to do a ridiculous amount of on-the-spot retooling. Like losing their leading man after one season. It's insane that it worked out as well as it did. JMS claimed he had trap doors for everyone. And some of them got used. Winters for example wasn't originally supposed to go that way. And supposedly Lennier leaving in that particular method was at the request of the actor playing him. Also, O'Hare told JMS about the paranoid delusions and hallucinations during the season 1 filming so they had time to work out the transition, it wasn't like Mat's actor just being gone between two episodes.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 00:40
|
|
|
Grundulum posted:How do you plot out a show based on a finished product and not plan for a full run? You plot for 3 seasons and then holy poo poo you’ve got to invent content for a surprise fourth season? This is not the book faithfulness that anyone wants!!
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 00:52
|
|
|
"Every character in an adventuring party has a tragic backstory," is a long-lambasted trope and the writers decided they were going to hamfistedly stuff that into a story about normal people coming to terms with their fates being pivotal to the survival of the world. Mat didn't need a broken home to frame his struggle with being a reluctant hero, Perrin didn't need to have a wife to fridge just so we would understand his struggle with keeping himself in control. For me it's endemic of the lazy shortcuts the show takes at almost every opportunity, leaving basically every character underdeveloped and every plotline feeling rushed and underwhelming. Point to the limited runtime or covid loving things up or endless exec notes, or hell "it's just another telling of the turning of the Wheel," whatever the reason it doesn't make the show any less of a disappointment for me. Costume department stays killing it, though.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 01:14
|
|
|
CainFortea posted:Also, O'Hare told JMS about the paranoid delusions and hallucinations during the season 1 filming so they had time to work out the transition, it wasn't like Mat's actor just being gone between two episodes. Little on the nose that the whole schtick of season 1 was "your character has paranoid delusions and hallucinations"
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 01:18
|
|
|
Pleads posted:"Every character in an adventuring party has a tragic backstory," is a long-lambasted trope and the writers decided they were going to hamfistedly stuff that into a story about normal people coming to terms with their fates being pivotal to the survival of the world. Which character would you say is the most normal, the genius general with super magic luck, the guy who telepathically talks to wolves, or the girl who’s the most powerful magic user in 3000 years?
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 01:24
|
|
|
Data Graham posted:Little on the nose that the whole schtick of season 1 was "your character has paranoid delusions and hallucinations" Yea, i'm sure walking on set with aliens in full makeup didn't fuckin help.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 01:25
|
|
|
buffalo all day posted:Which character would you say is the most normal, the genius general with super magic luck, the guy who telepathically talks to wolves, or the girl who’s the most powerful magic user in 3000 years? The old man who wanted to retire but decided to help out the kids instead
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 01:33
|
|
|
Comrade Blyatlov posted:The old man who wanted to retire but decided to help out the kids instead Perhaps in the next age Thom Merrilin will be the hero
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 01:52
|
|
|
What do you mean perhaps in the next age
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 02:24
|
|
|
Comrade Blyatlov posted:What do you mean perhaps in the next age I'm just mildly paraphrasing his conversation about who the main character in stories is and how that changes in the retellings
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 02:26
|
|
|
buffalo all day posted:Which character would you say is the most normal, the genius general with super magic luck, the guy who telepathically talks to wolves, or the girl who’s the most powerful magic user in 3000 years? None of them enter the book series with any of this and a lot of their early struggles are coming to grips with the gradual realization that these things are now a part of their lives, like it or not.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 03:39
|
|
|
It's really a hero's journey story, for like five different characters.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 03:58
|
|
|
Gwaihir posted:Mat's familial changes aren't baffling, they're there to give him a coherent through line for the first arc of the story- "Am I a monster, will I end up doing bad things like my dad, (Yes, you will, whispers the dagger and Ishy,) can I be a better person?" Book Mat may as well have been a completely blank slate before book 3, and the character is fully better for having a real reason in his background to do the things he does in the later plot lines he has. Giving a core character like Mat a foundational reason for acting the way he does later on is entirely worth altering the very very minor characters that are his parents. IMO the "I won't be like my terrible father" stuff is boring, the more interesting dynamic is that Abel Cauthon in the books is a legitimately good guy who is respected by everyone and always gets the better end of any deal. We don't get a lot of insight into the relationship between Mat and his father but the narrative of Mat as the son trying to live up to his father's character while far surpassing him in significance was one of the things that was cool about the character development over the course of the books. Obviously I'm biased though. Also Mat gets a lot of characterization in the first 3 books, although I will concede that the foundations of the character don't really stabilize until book 3.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 05:02
|
|
|
Rarity posted:And you didn't even mention Lanfear's wardrobe... Oh yeah she's excellent. And looks amazing.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 05:21
|
|
|
Mat Cauthon posted:
Mat doesn't get a POV until the 3rd book, so "a lot" is doing a lot of heavy lifting.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 05:29
|
|
|
Valentin posted:You don't have to resolve anything. But you should at least try to gesture at a character killing his wife in the first episode of the season by the season finale, or take a little more effort to leave someone in a conscious place of despair. Tbf Perrin's S1 finale story was picking up the slack in the Fain story after Barney Harris left which clearly wasn't the original intention
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 08:12
|
|
|
Also perrin was frequently quite emotionally messed up the whole time?
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 08:15
|
|
|
Valentin posted:also it's just not going to get 6-8 seasons and shouldn't be plotting that way but I try not to fault creatives for ambition Yeah at 2 years a season, season 8 would air in 2035 let’s say you film until 2034. There is no chance.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 08:50
|
|
|
CainFortea posted:Also perrin was frequently quite emotionally messed up the whole time? this would also easily be true without a fridged wife given the devastating attack on his idyllic hometown and his personal issues with violence. Rarity posted:Tbf Perrin's S1 finale story was picking up the slack in the Fain story after Barney Harris left which clearly wasn't the original intention Yeah, the Fain story, which we really absolutely had to resolve and which was relevant to this season in the following ways: also like once you've written a fridged wife into your updated feminist take on the "gender binaries are real and extremely powerful and important" fantasy series you are obliged to properly pay off the fridged wife, lest her ghost linger over the whole thing like a reminder you have no idea what you're doing. you should absolutely not be adding a new wife to be fridged with no real plan for how that fits in or gets its own mini arc within the season aside from "two seasons from now when this guy doesn't like the violence and pain of war, that won't make sense unless we give him a dead wife NOW" (also that makes it really genuinely a textbook fridging; she literally wouldn't exist if they weren't trying to service his character arc). alas, the show is now haunted. Valentin fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Feb 29, 2024 |
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 14:00
|
|
|
Grundulum posted:How do you plot out a show based on a finished product and not plan for a full run? You plot for 3 seasons and then holy poo poo you’ve got to invent content for a surprise fourth season? Film season 3 as if it’s the last. Just every scene is hitting a high point from the books: Rhuidean, Dumai’s Wells, siege of the White Tower, the Cleansing, every Forsaken battle, Bowl of the Winds, the gholam, just all of it. No one knows how they got there, things are just happening. All in 7 episodes. The Last Battle is episode 8, but when they find out they get a 4th season, it’s just all Last Battle for 7 episodes and the last episode is Rand facing the DO, until they find out they have a 5th season. And that’ll just be 8 episodes of Rand telling in pitch black at some ominous voice. You’re basically watching a black screen for 8 episodes. And when they get a 6th season, we get to see Rand no channel a pipe and just smoking while he walks for 8 straight episodes. Glorious. And when you finally think it’s over, they get a season 7 and literally reboot into the next 3rd age turning of the wheel. Boom, never ending show.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 15:43
|
|
|
latinotwink1997 posted:Film season 3 as if it’s the last. Just every scene is hitting a high point from the books: Rhuidean, Dumai’s Wells, siege of the White Tower, the Cleansing, every Forsaken battle, Bowl of the Winds, the gholam, just all of it. No one knows how they got there, things are just happening. Dr. Who the whole thing. New actors all the time for each new
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 15:46
|
|
|
No no, they spend a season in flashback, with Perrin chasing the Shaido through the snow.
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 15:47
|
|
|
Valentin posted:this would also easily be true without a fridged wife given the devastating attack on his idyllic hometown and his personal issues with violence. Yes, but that wasn't the claim I was refuting. The claim I was refuting was that it had absolutely no impact on him as a character in the season it happened in
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 16:36
|
|
|
Didnt rand have a few times where he was like whew that last battle was tough, thank goodness that's over with. Waddoyoumeantheresanotherone Just do that with the show and if it gets canceled after one of the last battles well there you go Being serious though, I really wanna know what the people involved in the show have planned. If they really do plan on making 8 seasons or whatever, at the current pace, not only will the actors all look much older at the end. Some of them will be dead probably. It's also unlikely that every single one of them is going to want to be tied to a single show for so much of their professional lives. Also the odds of a show like this making it to that many seasons in this streaming age where algorithms control what lives and dies is super unlikely. Shows lose viewers as they age and while some aspects of the show will get cheaper as they have sets built, and assets they can reuse I'm sure it will always be an expensive show
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 17:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 09:39 |
|
|
The Boys just got renewed for a fifth season before the fourth even aired so I think wot has a good chance of going the distance
|
|
#
?
Feb 29, 2024 17:21
|
|
