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It's also worth noting that part of the fallout from the Screwjob is the rise of multi-man matches. Vince never wanted to be back in a position where a belt could be held hostage and such if you put a third or more person in who could take a fall it keeps you from booking yourself into a corner. What's that, Jeff Jarrett has the IC belt and his contract's expired? Whatever he's a pro's pro we'll be fine. The screwjob also led to the belts Not Mattering but that was later down the line.
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Mar 2, 2024 19:44
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Bret offered to drop the title to Ken Shamrock on a house show the week before the show or to do the job on Raw after Survivor Series
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Mar 2, 2024 19:52
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C. Everett Koop posted:The screwjob also led to the belts Not Mattering but that was later down the line.
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Mar 2, 2024 20:15
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Edge & Christian posted:I feel like if anything it's just another step in that progression, by the time of the Montreal Screwjob we'd already had Hogan beating Yoko in an impromptu 22 second match, Bob Backlund winning the title when Owen Hart threw in a towel for Bret, Backlund losing in seconds to Diesel on a house show three days later, Shawn Michaels losing his smile and vacating the belt, Bret winning the vacant title and dropping it to Sid the next night, all within the five years prior. It went downhill further in the next few years. This is probably the best argument for not just making Blackman a surprise transitional champion. WWE was still just climbing out of the dregs of the New Generation, and they needed to keep the main event scene prestigious because it's been so sad for so long. Still, there's a billion things they could have done instead of forcing Bret to lose to the one main event guy he absolutely loathed, so the Screwjob is still an example of Vince painting himself into a corner for no reason.
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Mar 2, 2024 20:32
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In short, never underestimate the insane pettiness of both Vince McMahon and 90s Shawn Michaels
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Mar 2, 2024 20:47
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edogawa rando posted:New Generation Project Podcast? They split the Survivor Series into 2 parts - the matches before the main event, the match itself including and the various goings on involving McMahon, HBK and HHH. Nah, the Figure 4 Podcast, the Retro special they did from about 2014-2020. They did stuff always like...what was it, "19 years ago this week" so if you are interested, find the date of Shamrock/Bret and then look for the podcast episode from that month in 2016. You gotta pay for it, though.
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Mar 2, 2024 20:48
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I never understood the "Vince had no choice" thing about the screw job. He had a ton of choices, take the belt off him before he even told him he couldn't keep him, lose it to Undertaker, lose it to literally anyone else but Shawn.
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Mar 2, 2024 22:40
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As mentioned earlier they didn’t even have to do it in Montreal, they could have done it before or even weeks after. There’s a lot of things that don’t add up. Also it’s really cool that Bret spelled WCW backwards from his perspective so it would read correctly for the audience. Most people probably would have hosed that up in the heat of the moment. Unless it was something he had thought about before… 
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Mar 2, 2024 22:49
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Edge & Christian posted:I feel like if anything it's just another step in that progression, by the time of the Montreal Screwjob we'd already had Hogan beating Yoko in an impromptu 22 second match, Bob Backlund winning the title when Owen Hart threw in a towel for Bret, Backlund losing in seconds to Diesel on a house show three days later, Shawn Michaels losing his smile and vacating the belt, Bret winning the vacant title and dropping it to Sid the next night, all within the five years prior. It went downhill further in the next few years. Don't forget Backlund losing it to the Iron Sheik when Arnold Skaaland threw in the towel, Hogan losing it to Andre with the assistance of a crooked referee, Andre selling the title to DiBiase, Savage winning the title after Hogan hit DiBiase with a chair, Slaughter beating Warrior after Savage hit Warrior with a scepter, the Undertaker beating Hogan after Flair interfered, Hogan winning it back after throwing ashes in Undertaker's eyes, and Flair winning it in the Royal Rumble. That's in basically an 8 year span.
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Mar 2, 2024 23:41
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Sandman from ECW posted:As mentioned earlier they didn’t even have to do it in Montreal, they could have done it before or even weeks after. There’s a lot of things that don’t add up.
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Mar 3, 2024 00:39
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RenegadeStyle1 posted:I never understood the "Vince had no choice" thing about the screw job. He had a ton of choices, take the belt off him before he even told him he couldn't keep him, lose it to Undertaker, lose it to literally anyone else but Shawn. There was also already case law coming out of the 1991 Flair situation establishing that the championship belts are the company’s IP and can’t be used on the other company’s TV. Bischoff almost got in deep poo poo for violating that with Madusa, there was basically no chance he’d make that mistake again. (Never mind that Bret is unlikely to go along with that sort of thing.)
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Mar 3, 2024 01:57
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Sandman from ECW posted:As mentioned earlier they didn’t even have to do it in Montreal, they could have done it before or even weeks after. There’s a lot of things that don’t add up. .eb lliw reve ereht tseb eht ,saw ereht tseb eht ,si ereht tseb ehT
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Mar 3, 2024 05:00
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RenegadeStyle1 posted:I never understood the "Vince had no choice" thing about the screw job. He had a ton of choices, take the belt off him before he even told him he couldn't keep him, lose it to Undertaker, lose it to literally anyone else but Shawn. The only argument on this front is that without this capstone moment in wrestling history Vince wouldn't have had the juice as a heel to kick WWE into the Attitude Era. It would have been like if Hogan wasn't the 3rd man for the nWo. But he couldn't have known this at the time and even if he did gently caress him anyway. He didn't deserve the success that followed him after this. Ultimately it was probably all Vince being angry at Bret for not working or free or 'an opportunity' or whatever he'd call it in the days before contracts.
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Mar 3, 2024 10:43
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Vince very much tried to position himself as the babyface after Montreal too and really didn't pivot till the Tyson angle started. Just crazy not reading the crowd and a lot of the Raws after the screw job and before Tyson are awful and have the feel of a dying company
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Mar 3, 2024 17:20
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Do you think Tony Khan is still trying to chase the money that can be made from a babyface world title ace reign that's tied to the company's identity à la Hogan, Cena, or Okada? I think he got closest with Moxley's first reign, but he was a defector from WWE plus there was a ceiling to the kind of money that could be made during COVID. There were maybe plans with Hangman for this sort of reign, but TK wanted to put his hopes & dreams on CM Punk's shoulders instead, to disastrous results. Then, he did a wild thing where MJF transitioned from heel to babyface for the longest world title reign in AEW history, to ultimately mixed results. So, is TK still trying to chase that or, with the top of the card being as loaded as it is, trading the belt every 100 days or so in really epic matches is more of his style now?
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Mar 5, 2024 19:20
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It wouldnt surprise me if it was the latter, but thats more because I think AEW appeals to a different audience that is tired of the WWE style. I like it, I find mega long title reigns boring
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Mar 5, 2024 19:43
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We'll find out when he belts up Ospreay at All In.
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Mar 5, 2024 20:14
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It appears to me that tony for the world title has a very specific arc for his champs and once thats over he drops the belt. Of course it doesnt really go as planned with cmpunk breaking himself and then going nanners and adam cole also breaking himself. Jerichos was putting his mooks infront of himself and finally getting wrecked because mox played him. Moxes was being the fightingest champion, but couldnt deal when someone of significant wrestling ability hosed him up by being good at wrestling and cheating. Kenny wanted to collect all the belts and keep them, which ended because you cant possibly keep that up forever no matter how good you are Hangers was being a bad friend to dark order and deserved to lose it <  >Etc Defenestrategy fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Mar 5, 2024 |
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Mar 5, 2024 20:14
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I think AEW could probably do an Okada/Kobashi long title reign and have it mean something but something along the lines of Original Hogan/Bruno/Roman I don't think works for US TV promotion
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Mar 5, 2024 20:18
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Make Stokely Carmichael the Hulk/Roman Reigns of AEW
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Mar 5, 2024 20:26
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Defenestrategy posted:Hangers was being a bad friend to dark order and deserved to lose it <
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Mar 5, 2024 20:53
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I want a BTDO segment of the Dark Order running into Hangman backstage and the two sides keep angrily screaming "gently caress YOU!" back and forth like that scene in The Suicide Squad, before just saying, "Hey, really good seeing you," and going their separate ways.
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Mar 5, 2024 21:11
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Dr. Quarex posted:I was just thinking earlier that the only downside to Hangman being a heel now is that he cannot help Dark Order win the tag belts in the probably-upcoming-tournament because that would obviously be the biggest face move of all time I think Dark Order is the biggest missed opportunity in AEW. If TK had given SSB/Beaver Boys more agency in the Elite Feud, not even give them titles just like a big victory over the bucks, good bros, or redragon without hangman, and then not made them look like complete mooks to amdrag during hangers run, you could have made a pretty compelling story with the Dark Order getting fed up with hanger being a really bad friend, instead of what we ended up getting.
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Mar 5, 2024 22:54
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Always thought it was funny Silver and Reynolds have a finisher that looks like absolutely no one should ever be kicking out of it (the multi-part wombo combo) and then everyone kicks out of it because they're jobbers
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Mar 5, 2024 23:12
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Defenestrategy posted:I think Dark Order is the biggest missed opportunity in AEW. If TK had given SSB/Beaver Boys more agency in the Elite Feud, not even give them titles just like a big victory over the bucks, good bros, or redragon without hangman, and then not made them look like complete mooks to amdrag during hangers run, you could have made a pretty compelling story with the Dark Order getting fed up with hanger being a really bad friend, instead of what we ended up getting. Beaver Boys/SSB/Best Friends/Proud&Powerful have zero combined title reigns, and that loving sucks!!
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Mar 6, 2024 00:04
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lol I genuinely forgot Stu was still on the roster until I saw this, it's been over six months since he appeared on AEW or ROH
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Mar 6, 2024 00:08
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I think while good workers the Beaver Boys/SSB as act don't feel like Tag Champs. Just a bit too silly and couldn't really overcome it. Trent and Chuck should get a run but have also had injuries off and on so I get why they haven't had the titles. Proud and Powerful definitely feel like a miss on not getting the titles but that probably is on them not getting along at the end.
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Mar 6, 2024 00:50
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Kvlt! posted:Make Stokely Carmichael the Hulk/Roman Reigns of AEW
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Mar 6, 2024 01:02
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SatoshiMiwa posted:I think while good workers the Beaver Boys/SSB as act don't feel like Tag Champs. Just a bit too silly and couldn't really overcome it.
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Mar 6, 2024 02:34
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There was definitely a point during hangman vs elite that with some minor changes an ssb tag run for a month or two would have been fine. Bucks vs lucha bros part 8 was really good but there was no reason you had to have lucha bros end the bucks reign and could pass it from ssb
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Mar 6, 2024 03:31
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the current silly "find ourselves learn from a mentor" arc on BTDO gives me some hope that we're on the verge of a major Dark Order reboot, maybe for the tag tournament. Maybe some ultraviolent cheating?
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Mar 6, 2024 05:23
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Edge & Christian posted:He passed in 1998, but this is definitely the sort of title reign you don't see in WWE! my exhausted-after-a-double-shift brain jumbled Hathaway and Carmichael you are correct
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Mar 6, 2024 05:53
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Defenestrategy posted:There was definitely a point during hangman vs elite that with some minor changes an ssb tag run for a month or two would have been fine. Bucks vs lucha bros part 8 was really good but there was no reason you had to have lucha bros end the bucks reign and could pass it from ssb Yeah, there could have been something in the first leadup to Omega/Hangman, but the Elite winning that 10-man after the Dark Order had their big fancy entrance that people loved killed them. At this point it's really time to cut bait. They've had three strikes: the first failed spooky push that led to that disasterous end show beatdown and forced Tony to revamp the whole show, when Brodie died (not anyone's fault obviously but still), and then once Hangman basically left them out to dry. It's a dead gimmick and all parties really need to move on.
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Mar 6, 2024 06:03
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Defenestrategy posted:There was definitely a point during hangman vs elite that with some minor changes an ssb tag run for a month or two would have been fine. Bucks vs lucha bros part 8 was really good but there was no reason you had to have lucha bros end the bucks reign and could pass it from ssb didn't lucha bros beat the bucks in that cage match that's absolutely one of my top AEW matches? that's a reason. Uno and Stu are cool but they couldn't have had that match.
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Mar 6, 2024 13:08
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There was a point, when everyone was slowly leaving Dark Order, when I thought the Beaver Boys would turn heel and get rid of the Dark Order for good. Oh well. At least BTDO is going well for them.
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Mar 6, 2024 15:29
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Gambit from the X-Men posted:didn't lucha bros beat the bucks in that cage match that's absolutely one of my top AEW matches? that's a reason. Uno and Stu are cool but they couldn't have had that match. Sure but theres no reason it couldnt have been a title defence during a lucha bro reign after taking it off dark order, the lucha bros didnt really need the rub of taking the titles off the bucks.
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Mar 6, 2024 17:20
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At least Dark Order fans still have The Threemendous ladder match from PWG to look back on. Uno and Stu are good and should have got the titles or had a more solid run. 
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Mar 6, 2024 18:22
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Gambit from the X-Men posted:didn't lucha bros beat the bucks in that cage match that's absolutely one of my top AEW matches? that's a reason. Uno and Stu are cool but they couldn't have had that match. not many could? dark order boys had a very good deathmatch on an roh pape last year
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Mar 6, 2024 19:30
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stu and uno had a badass tag match in dpw a few months ago they could still be tag champions
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Mar 6, 2024 19:54
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I was so happy when I heard that AEW had somehow gotten the SSB 
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Mar 6, 2024 19:57
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