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Bugblatter posted:Speculation that Chani will be leading the fremen who appose Paul in Denis' Messiah seems on point. I mean there's two paths there. 1. Infantilize her and the Fremen. It was the evil white child that made us do all that genocide, he tricked us with cultural appropriation and overwhelming twink energy! We just want to stay in our caves and drink our own rear end water. 2. Acknowledge the truth that her way of life was dead the second the majority of her people saw a chance for change, and that she can never win. Not because of Paul, but because the majority of the Fremen actively want her to fail. So she's either an idiot or a failure. I don't know that that is much of a step up from blandly content except for the whole "No kids" thing. Guess it gives her more to do. All destined for failure, but certainly more.
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Mar 13, 2024 18:41
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Tree Bucket posted:It is called the Zum Meeting.” kull wahad!
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Mar 13, 2024 18:45
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Mulva posted:I mean there's two paths there.  The Fremen dream isn't "staying in our caves and drinking our own rear end water", it's being free from outside control and terra forming the planet to make it more hospitable. The latter hasn't gotten a ton of attention in the series so far but it's hardly been explicitly contradicted, and they could easily make it her stated goal to free her people from Paul's influence so they'll be free to focus on continuing work instead of pursuing a galactic war that she doesn't really care about and which the audience has already been primed to see as bad.
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Mar 13, 2024 18:48
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Cognac McCarthy posted:
it's hinted at in 1 with kynes expo dumping about the ecological station + confirming she's fremen, plus the "old dream" referenced by the palm waterer, but it's made text in 2 with stilgar telling jessica the sietch water well being used to eventually transform the planet and paul using foresight of the "green paradise" to rally the fremen under him
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Mar 13, 2024 18:54
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Cognac McCarthy posted:they could easily make it her stated goal to free her people from Paul's influence so they'll be free to focus on continuing work instead of pursuing a galactic war that she doesn't really care about and which the audience has already been primed to see as bad. His influence of giving them everything they ever wanted for the first time in ten thousand years? Good luck to her selling that one.
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Mar 13, 2024 19:25
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If they respect worms why would they want to terraform the planet to something uninhabitable for worms
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Mar 13, 2024 19:31
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Because living in a desert drinking piss sucks
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Mar 13, 2024 19:32
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Steve Yun posted:If they respect worms why would they want to terraform the planet to something uninhabitable for worms At least in the book, the idea always was to maintain a large portion of deep desert specifically for the worms, but to make much of the north into an easily habitable terrain. The actual text: [quote="Frank Herbert"] ‘We will trap the dunes beneath grass plantings,’ Stilgar said, his voice growing stonger. ‘We will tie the water into the soil with trees and undergrowth.’ ‘Bi-lal kaifa,’ intoned the troop. ‘Each year the polar ice retreats,’ Stilgar said. ‘Bi-lal kaifa,’ they chanted. ‘We will make a homeworld of Arrakis – with melting lenses at the poles, with lakes in the temperate zones, and only the deep desert for the maker and his spice.’ ‘Bi-lal kaifa.’ ‘And no man ever again shall want for water. It shall be his for dipping from well or pond or lake or canal. It shall run down through the qanats to feed our plants. It shall be there for any man to take. It shall be his for holding out his hand.’ Kvantum fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 19:36
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Mulva posted:So she's either an idiot or a failure. I don't know that that is much of a step up from blandly content except for the whole "No kids" thing. Everyone in Dune is one of those two. Being a character with agency who makes decisions that have consequences is a step up from being not that. Support women's wrongs, imo.
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Mar 13, 2024 19:40
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Steve Yun posted:If they respect worms why would they want to terraform the planet to something uninhabitable for worms “And what of Arrakis?” the Emperor asked. “Another garden world full of gentle things?” “The Fremen have the word of Muad‘Dib,” Paul said. “There will be flowing water here open to the sky and green oases rich with good things. But we have the spice to think of, too. Thus, there will always be desert on Arrakis ... and fierce winds, and trials to toughen a man. We Fremen have a saying: ‘God created Arrakis to train the faithful.” One cannot go against the word of God.” (this was the plan of Pardot and Liet Kynes and the Fremen to begin with. but then one day a Hero came and everything started moving at an accelerated pace. there was a Shortening of the Way, with ill effects for much of humanity.) edit: i see i have been beaten to the point
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Mar 13, 2024 19:41
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That's why Jacurutu was destroyed and its people scattered. Iduali means "pisspig"
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Mar 13, 2024 19:43
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Mulva posted:His influence of giving them everything they ever wanted for the first time in ten thousand years? quote:Good luck to her selling that one.
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Mar 13, 2024 19:43
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Steve Yun posted:If they respect worms why would they want to terraform the planet to something uninhabitable for worms furthermore, the terraforming project was itself the product of manipulation by outsiders, specifically kynes' father, and a very recent cultural development.
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Mar 13, 2024 19:48
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Halloween Jack posted:That's why Jacurutu was destroyed and its people scattered. Iduali means "pisspig" Should'na hosed with Gurney Halleck, bi lal kaifa.
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Mar 13, 2024 19:56
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Admiral Bosch posted:“And what of Arrakis?” the Emperor asked. “Another garden world full of gentle things?” Why don't they just, like, move somewhere else? Just go live on Caladan or whatever. I mean, it's a big universe. There's really no need for anyone to live on Arrakis except spice miners.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:08
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Bro why don't you just, like, move to another planet?
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Mar 13, 2024 20:13
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I presume you're doing a bit but it is very funny to see Jessica get fully onboard with manipulating the fremen and forcing Paul to fulfill this prophecy to protect herself/her son/her unborn daughter when you know what she does in book 2fucks off to Caladan, abandons the fremen, doesn't allow the jihad to set foot on the Atreides homeworld
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Mar 13, 2024 20:15
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Cognac McCarthy posted:His influence of entangling them in a global crusade that goes far beyond (and eventually counteracts) their goal of becoming free. They are the single most important planet in the empire. There is no "beyond" Dune. It's fate is the fate of humanity. They fight everyone or they aren't free, period. Paul there, no Paul there. Irrelevant. quote:The books are explicitly about the Fremen being used as a tool in a galactic power struggle and having their culture destroyed as a result. The books are clear that the Fremen have wants out of the Jihad. Titles, land, wealth. Paul has to provide those things, or they won't follow him. Their culture is being destroyed primarily because they want to destroy their culture. They want a better life. And they get it. Good for them! quote:As we know, characters in movies never have goals that seem difficult or impossible to achieve. Furthermore, Oh that's fine, it's just that when you compare and contrast character states "Boring" to "Stupid" isn't a great jump.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:15
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Illmade posted:Why don't they just, like, move somewhere else? Just go live on Caladan or whatever. I mean, it's a big universe. There's really no need for anyone to live on Arrakis except spice miners. Their history involves a lot of being chased or pogromed out of other places before they finally settled on Arrakis. Plus at this point, the only way for them to move is with the aid of someone else with spaceships, and the main groups who can afford or command that either don't give a poo poo or have an interest in keeping them stuck there. The Guild extorts a ton of extra spice out of them in exchange for various favors, they're an entire society of spice miners there as far as the Guild is concerned.
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Mar 13, 2024 20:42
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GoodluckJonathan posted:Bro why don't you just, like, move to another planet? Arrakis is the only one with free public transportation
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Mar 13, 2024 20:45
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Mulva posted:The books are clear that the Fremen have wants out of the Jihad. Titles, land, wealth. Paul has to provide those things, or they won't follow him. Their culture is being destroyed primarily because they want to destroy their culture. They want a better life. And they get it. Good for them! And by the end it's presented as a cultural tragedy. The movies are introducing those themes slightly earlier and less ambiguously than the books. Thus Chani speaking up against Paul and the introduction of internal divides among the Fremen. My point is that they're pretty clearly setting up a conflict between Paul and Chani over the soul of the Fremen, litigating the outcome of what actually happens in the books over a much greater span of time.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:07
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Illmade posted:Why don't they just, like, move somewhere else? Just go live on Caladan or whatever. I mean, it's a big universe. There's really no need for anyone to live on Arrakis except spice miners. telling exploited people to "just move somewhere else" smgdh
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Mar 13, 2024 21:15
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kalel posted:100 unironically, dv is the closest anyone's come to reaching stanley kubrick's level, down to the same exact criticisms about grand themes yielding inert characters. except he seems to be a pleasant guy and not a complete rear end in a top hat I guess Shelly Duval being yelled at for 10 hours being replaced by Denis yelling at a cgi image of a spider is an improvement
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Mar 13, 2024 21:17
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Mulva posted:I mean there's two paths there. Why are you making being flawed and struggling with the inconsistencies of one's viewpoints a bad thing.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:20
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Cognac McCarthy posted:And by the end it's presented as a cultural tragedy. Almost as bad as the tens of billions of people they killed when you think about it. Shageletic posted:Why are you making being flawed and struggling with the inconsistencies of one's viewpoints a bad thing. Oh it can be. Just not here.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:34
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idk if Chani becomes truly antagonistic to Paul, that's a pretty permanent divergence from the plot. The events of Children / Leto II are pretty much gone (that's a bad thing!) but it gives a lot of wriggle room to make a movie in the Messiah chronology that could appeal to an audience (good thing?). It seems like Dennis is a fanboy of the series so I doubt if he's going to go full Brian Herbert and just make a third movie written by himself.
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Mar 13, 2024 21:49
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Mulva posted:Oh it can be. Just not here. why not?
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Mar 13, 2024 21:49
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Schwarzwald posted:why not? Time, and the inability of the movies to have enough of it.
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Mar 13, 2024 22:36
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Minor thing that I didn't quite get: when the Fremen atrack the Harkonnen harvester, they eventually blow it up with a lasgun. Why didn't they do that immediately? Why the rocket launcher?
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Mar 14, 2024 00:21
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I think they wanted to take out the ornithopters before revealing their lasgun firing positions
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Mar 14, 2024 00:23
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I seem to recall that scene being immediately followed by a scene where they blow up a harvester while the choppers are still in the air.
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Mar 14, 2024 00:25
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The ornithopters were shielded. Blasting a shield with a laser can cause a reaction that is equal to a nuclear weapon going off. Gotta take them out first if you don't want to kill everyone around. Same reason everyone's always using swords.
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Mar 14, 2024 00:26
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Gaius Marius posted:The ornithopters were shielded. Blasting a shield with a laser can cause a reaction that is equal to a nuclear weapon going off. Gotta take them out first if you don't want to kill everyone around. Same reason everyone's always using swords. Ya I think this is pretty much it. Anything on the ground with a shield is immediate worm bait, but the thopter has has one. Once that's gone, it's open season with a laser.
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Mar 14, 2024 00:30
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Scags McDouglas posted:It seems like Dennis is a fanboy of the series so I doubt if he's going to go full Brian Herbert and just make a third movie written by himself. I think he should rewrite all of the (fake, not real) Brian/Kevin novels. it would be invariably better
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Mar 14, 2024 00:30
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MrMojok posted:I think they wanted to take out the ornithopters before revealing their lasgun firing positions Gaius Marius posted:The ornithopters were shielded. Blasting a shield with a laser can cause a reaction that is equal to a nuclear weapon going off. Gotta take them out first if you don't want to kill everyone around. Same reason everyone's always using swords. it's cool that both of these are valid interpretations of the tactical decisions on screen imo
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Mar 14, 2024 00:32
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kalel posted:I think he should rewrite all of the (fake, not real) Brian/Kevin novels. it would be invariably better Listen, bro, I have some fantastic news about Chatgpt,
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Mar 14, 2024 00:36
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disposablewords posted:Their history involves a lot of being chased or pogromed out of other places before they finally settled on Arrakis. Plus at this point, the only way for them to move is with the aid of someone else with spaceships, and the main groups who can afford or command that either don't give a poo poo or have an interest in keeping them stuck there. The Guild extorts a ton of extra spice out of them in exchange for various favors, they're an entire society of spice miners there as far as the Guild is concerned. They’re also all irretrievably addicted to the spice, to the point where if they went offworld the amount of spice they would need simply to survive would bankrupt most noble households. Outside of Arrakis, the blue on blue eyes are only seen on people with insanely depraved spice addictions like Piter.
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Mar 14, 2024 01:21
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I mean he theoretically CAN'T screw us out of this in MESSIAH unless he takes some incredible liberties with the source material but not seeing a heighliner once in Part 2 was a bummer. I wanna see that freaky navigator, baby.
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Mar 14, 2024 01:33
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MaoistBanker posted:but not seeing a heighliner once in Part 2 was a bummer. I wanna see that freaky navigator, baby. I posted:Also this wasn't in the first book much but I wouldn't have complained to see a guild navigator or two and more detail of the space folding. We are bros now.
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Mar 14, 2024 02:03
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kalel posted:I think he should rewrite all of the (fake, not real) Brian/Kevin novels. it would be invariably better Dap to Dennis if this whole thing was a setup to jump the 3rd film in to the later novels with a big (Later on) and it's an epic movie focused on space jews and magic pussy
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Mar 14, 2024 02:06
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