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Grimnarsson posted:The ship is Dutch though? I assume the ships would be about the same level of tech with the English navy being the more state of the art at the time.
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Mar 23, 2024 10:44
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The historical Anjin brought a bunch of bronze guns fwiw
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Mar 23, 2024 13:54
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Iron was definitely superior, but artillery science is like an actual thing and the british/dutch definitely had an edge. I'm not enough of a history nerd to know whether bronze cannons could be as accurate as the show depicted the iron ones to be, but there's definitely enough of an art to using cannons that being taught how to use them right does significantly improve their accuracy. You see him using a sighting device and stuff in the show.
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Mar 23, 2024 22:11
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OK I think I might be blind because I couldn't tell if that was a landslide or a tsunami that hit the army encampment after the earthquake. I have vivid memories of the old miniseries from when I was a kid. Have to say that I like the new one a lot more.
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Mar 23, 2024 22:42
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Will any new iron cannon have to be folded over a thousand times?
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Mar 23, 2024 23:13
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mossyfisk posted:The historical Anjin brought a bunch of bronze guns fwiw In fact they were at the historical battle of Sekigahara.
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Mar 24, 2024 00:30
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As someone who didn’t read the book or see the original series I’m fully enjoying the show. I think the series is doing a great job of handling the now very worn but always effective stranger in a strange land but balancing it out so it’s neither what savior nor is it the locals have it all figured out. I think it’s doing a great job of pointing out to the audience as well as the audience surrogate Blackthorne that Europe isn’t the center of the universe and the Japanese are worthy of respect, but also that their own culture has its own set of rules that at times seem admirable but at others are completely illogical. It’s the kind of “we’ve all got our problems and demons” writing that can be didactic and boring when done wrong. However it’s done very well here. And on top of all that it’s a gorgeous looking series. I will say for me this most recent episode out of all of them felt like the most wheel spinning episode in that it had to lay more groundwork to setup more things on the back half of the series. I don’t say that as a negative either, as I really liked the episode, just I’m already like “get to the fireworks factory!!”
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Mar 24, 2024 00:34
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Sash! posted:OK I think I might be blind because I couldn't tell if that was a landslide or a tsunami that hit the army encampment after the earthquake. Landslide
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Mar 24, 2024 02:19
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Liquefaction is a terrifying phenomenon and it doesn't matter whether it's the result of a sand worm or a natural process.
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Mar 24, 2024 03:42
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The fact that liquefaction makes earth appear to move like water is precisely why it's so terrifying. I do not recommend looking up footage of actual liquefaction if you live in a liquefaction danger zone like I do
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Mar 24, 2024 17:18
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I got the impression it was a series of landslides caused by an earthquake.
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Mar 24, 2024 18:24
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Liquefaction is a type of landslide though, or more clearly the cause of a landslide. quote:What makes a debris flow (mudslide) different from a regular landslide is that liquefaction is occurring in the material. This means the material is saturated with water and due to internal water pressure, the soil grains have lost their friction. Therefore, a previously solid material can now flow like a liquid.
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Mar 24, 2024 18:35
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YaketySass posted:Will any new iron cannon have to be folded over a thousand times? For some reason i read that as ion cannon and really confused myself.
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Mar 24, 2024 18:46
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YaketySass posted:Will any new iron cannon have to be folded over a thousand times? Yes, the metal folding wasn't actually some artistic technique, it was required because the only iron Japan was able to mine was brittle pig iron. It needed to be folded over and over to build up enough strength to not shatter.
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Mar 24, 2024 18:46
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It's also worth noting that the iron was only folded about a dozen times, resulting in over a thousand layers, not folded a thousand times.
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Mar 24, 2024 22:17
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All caught up now and Yabu is a lot more likeable - though no less shifty and conniving - in this version, the actor is just delightful to watch. I'm also loving Blackthorne's colourful language and Mariko's sly smiles as she translates it. And I'm glad he wasn't as harsh on Fuji as Chamberlain was after the pheasant thing. Something strange from comparing the two series is that even though it's ages since I saw the old one, I remember just about everything, everyone...except for Toranaga's son, I don't remember anything about him at all, just a total blank. Burns posted:For some reason i read that as ion cannon and really confused myself. To be fair, Anjin has come from far, far away.
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Mar 25, 2024 02:17
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Yngwie Mangosteen posted:Iron was definitely superior, but artillery science is like an actual thing and the british/dutch definitely had an edge. I'm not enough of a history nerd to know whether bronze cannons could be as accurate as the show depicted the iron ones to be, but there's definitely enough of an art to using cannons that being taught how to use them right does significantly improve their accuracy. You see him using a sighting device and stuff in the show. I may be mixing something up here, but I'm pretty sure that bronze was actually the superior cannon material in terms of quality until like the 19th century when they could be made out of high-quality homogenuous steel. Bronze would actually have been tougher than cast iron, meaning you could have much lighter cannon for a given calibre. Bronze was also usually safer: A well-made bronze cannon near the end of its lifespan would start to visibly deform or rupture, indicating that it's high time replace it. An cast iron cannon meanwhile would develop internal fractures until one day it just blows apart right in your face. The main advantage of the cast iron version was that they were way cheaper to produce once you had the technology to make them. Another factor is that previous Japanese cannon were often breech-loaded (much like early medieval European versions), unlike the muzzle-loaded kind that Blackthorne brought along. Breech-loading is quite a bit quicker and more convenient, but the downside is that it can't form a good seal so you have a bunch of gas venting out the breech when firing. That reduces the overall range/power of your shot and also tends to make it quite a bit less consistent from one shot to the next.
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Mar 25, 2024 11:02
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Perestroika posted:I may be mixing something up here, but I'm pretty sure that bronze was actually the superior cannon material in terms of quality until like the 19th century when they could be made out of high-quality homogenuous steel. Bronze would actually have been tougher than cast iron, meaning you could have much lighter cannon for a given calibre. Bronze was also usually safer: A well-made bronze cannon near the end of its lifespan would start to visibly deform or rupture, indicating that it's high time replace it. An cast iron cannon meanwhile would develop internal fractures until one day it just blows apart right in your face. The main advantage of the cast iron version was that they were way cheaper to produce once you had the technology to make them. I think the primary advantage of bronze cannon were that they were very resistant to rust and corrosion, especially from saltwater.
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Mar 25, 2024 13:00
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started this and finished episode 2. its a good watch. Actually kind of interested in every character for once because they all have interesting motives that make sense
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Mar 25, 2024 15:38
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SolarFire2 posted:I think the primary advantage of bronze cannon were that they were very resistant to rust and corrosion, especially from saltwater. Bronze is less likely to expolsively disassemble from heat and stress.
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Mar 25, 2024 15:56
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Is Kuroda supposed to be Oda Nobunaga?
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Mar 25, 2024 16:27
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I think he's Oda Hidenobu, the guy after Nobunaga.
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Mar 25, 2024 16:30
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Yngwie Mangosteen posted:I think he's Oda Hidenobu, the guy after Nobunaga. Oh, multiple Odas got assassinated? My sengoku era history is mostly total war games, so looking forward to Toranaga's turtle strategy.
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Mar 25, 2024 16:38
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Aurubin posted:Is Kuroda supposed to be Oda Nobunaga? Shogun's name for oda nobunaga is goroda. You might have misheard that as kuroda in which case yeah
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Mar 25, 2024 16:42
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No Mods No Masters posted:Shogun's name for oda nobunaga is goroda. You might have misheard that as kuroda in which case yeah https://shogun.fandom.com/wiki/Kuroda-sama
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Mar 25, 2024 17:08
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Oh, it's one of the ones they changed from the book, my bad. I get some of the names clavell made up were really silly but lol at the fix making it even more confusing. Further, a more fundamental lol that james clavell got away with naming everyone from sengoku jidai the japanese names version of this in the first place 
No Mods No Masters fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Mar 25, 2024 |
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Mar 25, 2024 17:14
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It boggles me that Clavell spent six years working on this book and seems to have never passed it by anybody with academic knowledge of the era. Or, even proofread the Japanese. See the misspelling of tokonoma in my screenshotted excerpt a few days ago. Which, by the way he does at least three times throughout the book, each a different spelling.
Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Mar 25, 2024 |
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Mar 25, 2024 17:52
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Shocking. Can you give us a critique of The Mikado and what it gets wrong?
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Mar 25, 2024 18:08
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No.
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Mar 25, 2024 18:37
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On second thought, thanks inspiring me to do some Wiki reading.Wikipedia entry on The Mikado posted:Gilbert wrote, "The Mikado of the opera was an imaginary monarch of a remote period and cannot by any exercise of ingenuity be taken to be a slap on an existing institution."[47] The Mikado "was never a story about Japan but about the failings of the British government". Wikipedia entry on Shogun posted:Clavell was an officer in the Royal Artillery during World War II and was a prisoner of war at Changi Prison in Singapore from 1942 to 1945, an experience that formed the basis of his first novel King Rat. Despite this experience, he admired Japan and the Japanese people, and described Shogun as "passionately pro-Japanese."[2] Author intents were different, and Clavell's publisher should have hired a more competent proofer.
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Mar 25, 2024 18:50
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The names are really a perfect representative of the contradictions that make shogun interesting on the meta level. I guess it's kind of where you can feel blackthorne ends and clavell begins. Blackthorne's affinity with japan basically ends up being a total embrace, a swallowing up. Clavell doesn't really want to fully commit that much in a way that can almost even feel kind of fearful or self-denying. And I guess that's how you end up with a fairly well researched novel for its time that is obviously fascinated with japan yet also has characters basically named sleve mcdichael
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Mar 25, 2024 19:28
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Bobson Dugnutt-sama
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Mar 25, 2024 19:43
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This puts the show in an awkward/interesting position where they're obviously not recreating history but are trying to make the story more history-ish. The question of how much they should bother with revising what the book got wrong must have been weird, since at the end of the day it's a successful novel that tells a compelling story in its own right (and it's the one people are expecting to see), and every historical fiction fudges the facts for a good story.
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Mar 25, 2024 21:17
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It sounds like a lot of us here are history nerds. I love when a show or a movie goes all in on historical accuracy or tries to line historical fiction up with real events and tries to make it as accurate as possible. But I certainly also recognize that when it comes to shows/movies they also ultimately have to tell a compelling story and there will be times when they consolidate or create a character to help the audience who might have zero knowledge of the event leading in. To me, whether for example Chernobyl is 100 percent accurate is less important than the fact that they told the story relatively accurately and conveyed the mood and what not. For me, the real danger of any popular tv show or movie is that it will have the unfortunate effect of kind of becoming THE historical document of a thing. That is something the people creating the thing can't really worry themselves with but films and tv have that ability. They have that power. The best case scenario is it creates a opening for inquisitive minds to delve deeper into the subject but for many, they'll watch Chernobyl and be like "well thats exactly how it was...moving on..." I know this show has certainly reignited my interest in some Japanese history stuff! Definitely going to be buying some history books once this show ends.
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Mar 25, 2024 21:42
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Stegosnaurlax posted:I assume the ships would be about the same level of tech with the English navy being the more state of the art at the time. Actually the Dutch likely had the edge. Check out the initial Anglo-Dutch war and that's half a century later. Though its not like the basic physical differences vary much, its not like they have radar and CIWS.
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Mar 25, 2024 22:03
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You always have to sacrifice to make something even remotely filmable, like Apollo 13 being pretty much right but also having to do plenty of "this guy was actually a team of 30."
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Mar 25, 2024 22:04
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Sash! posted:You always have to sacrifice to make something even remotely filmable, like Apollo 13 being pretty much right but also having to do plenty of "this guy was actually a team of 30." Chernobyl is another good example of this.
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Mar 25, 2024 22:06
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chernobyl had some flagarant innacuracies like implying they only started the evacuation after other countries noticed the hike in radiation.
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Mar 25, 2024 22:16
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:Chernobyl is another good example of this. Yeah, they compressed like 500 scientists and engineers and poo poo into like 2 people.
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Mar 25, 2024 22:49
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Those poor people...
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Mar 25, 2024 23:53
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