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wiegieman posted:It would just end up being whoever got him into that situation, because Lucius coming back isn't because of an algorithm you can trick. He comes back because Slaanesh is a god who thinks it's funny to watch him get angry about dying. This is the truest answer. It's also why there's no safe way to study or try to harness Chaos. It's not like fire or radioactive material, which are dangerous but ultimately obedient to the laws of nature, and therefore can be used safely as long as proper methods are employed. Chaos is alive, it is sentient, it is absolutely malicious, and it obeys no laws. It's like if the Demon Core could whisper to everyone about how cool it would be to take the screwdriver out, and could even expel the screwdriver on its own when it really wanted. Now I really want to work a Daemon Core screwdriver gag into a story somehow, it is blessed archaeotech 
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Apr 1, 2024 03:01
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The book is Renegades of the Long War, it has a Lucius book and short story, a Kharn book, and an Alpha Legion book Funny bit from the Kharn book: You killed him. Remember?’ Ruokh’s eye twitched. ‘That was a fair fight,’ he growled. ‘It was to first blood,’ said Dreagher. ‘I only hit him once,’ said Ruokh. ‘You decapitated him.’ ‘There was a lot of first blood,’ Relevant Tangent fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Apr 1, 2024 |
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Apr 1, 2024 04:39
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WHFB was actually a more interesting/alive setting then 40k imo because while it did use the "Barbarians at the gates trope" it also really dug into the whole "Things are slowly but surely getting unfucked in regards to racial alliances and technological improvement" side of things which offered a slowly growing torch in the dark. Chaos warriors were hot poo poo until gunpowder became a thing etc. 40k just kinda goes "Yeah all that new Primaris poo poo is neat I guess but everythings still hosed, sorry ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"
Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 06:53 on Apr 1, 2024 |
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Apr 1, 2024 06:49
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The 40k universe shouldn't get better though, because it doesn't deserve to get better. Any torches in the darkness is down to individuals or individual moments that happen in spite of the horror, and those we do need, but if society improved somewhat or things slowly got better, that would be a concession that the Imperium as a society and civilization had a place in a sane universe, and it absolutely doesn't.
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Apr 1, 2024 08:07
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Black Griffon posted:but if society improved somewhat or things slowly got better, that would be a concession that the Imperium as a society and civilization had a place in a sane universe, and it absolutely doesn't. That's a bizarre argument. "If a culture can change to be gradually less horrible, that means it wasn't actually horrible in the first place"? I don't see how that makes any sense. I do agree, for completely different reasons, that it would be a bad narrative choice to make the Imperium get better. One possible exception might be emphasizing the Sanctus/Nihilus split, so that stories set in Sanctus can be more hopeful and heroic while Nihilus goes full 3rd Edition Ridiculous Grimdark. But I'm not sure I would like that either because that would leave no place for the many stories that dip into both moods at different points.
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Apr 1, 2024 08:20
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No that was weirdly and badly phrased, yeah, had just woken up. I think my point is that it would undercut the whole point of the Imperium in a narrative sense, which is that it's the stagnant endpoint of a fascist super nightmare that has ground itself into a corner where the only outcome besides eternal war is annihilation. It wouldn't make sense for the setting or the vibe of 40k for things to get better.
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Apr 1, 2024 09:10
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I say we hit the logical endpoint and have the Imperium begin to actually fracture as a political entity. Only through pure firey chaotic civil war can things begin to get better, maybe.
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Apr 1, 2024 11:09
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As of TEatD volume 2, there is a fully canon plot element that could make things less horrible for humanity, just waiting to be used. The Emperor cast out all his kindness and compassion so that he would have a chance against Horus, and Abnett said outright that the shard would grow and gain power over time. So either that shard somehow gets reunited with the Emperor, or starts exerting influence on its own. It also is very fitting that the Imperium has been ruled all this time by an Emperor who literally has no conception of mercy, kindness, or compassion.
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Apr 1, 2024 12:28
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That has been canyon for many years
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Apr 1, 2024 12:47
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Has it? I thought it was one of those 1st Edition things that had been abandoned and made non-canon as the setting developed further, like the Sensei. TEatDv2 is the first I'm aware of it being explicitly recognized recently.
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Apr 1, 2024 12:55
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Kylaer posted:As of TEatD volume 2, there is a fully canon plot element that could make things less horrible for humanity, just waiting to be used. The Emperor cast out all his kindness and compassion so that he would have a chance against Horus, and Abnett said outright that the shard would grow and gain power over time. So either that shard somehow gets reunited with the Emperor, or starts exerting influence on its own. Since it's Abnett I think it's very likely that Saint Sabbat is drawing her power from there.
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Apr 1, 2024 12:55
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It’s the core plot point of John French’s Inquisition trilogy. I re-read those books post TEATD3 and it did feel like French had been given a heads-up on Abnett’s plans.
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Apr 1, 2024 13:27
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What if, and hear me out, this fragment manifests in yellow, being let's say a king in it's manifestation
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Apr 1, 2024 13:32
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kim jong-illin posted:It’s the core plot point of John French’s Inquisition trilogy. I re-read those books post TEATD3 and it did feel like French had been given a heads-up on Abnett’s plans. Ah, I haven't read those yet, thanks for the heads-up.
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Apr 1, 2024 13:34
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Is Dan Abbett like, king lore guy at GW? It feels like he's in charge or should be with how he's written 70% of the fluff.
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Apr 1, 2024 13:37
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StrixNebulosa posted:Is Dan Abbett like, king lore guy at GW? It feels like he's in charge or should be with how he's written 70% of the fluff. No. It's not readily apparent from the outside but Black Library publications brings in a fraction of the revenue the miniatures side of GW's business model does. It's not nothing but the primary business model is about making cool miniatures and then making rules to encourage using them. Everything else, every scrap of lore, every bit of background or cool idea about transhumanism and the use of power, is secondary to the concern of selling minis and paints to nerds.
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Apr 1, 2024 13:49
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That's not what I asked though?
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Apr 1, 2024 13:57
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For teatd abnett was pulling from all the authors and iirc they had a regular working group for HH as a whole. This was in the afterwords he wrote
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Apr 1, 2024 13:59
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StrixNebulosa posted:Is Dan Abbett like, king lore guy at GW? It feels like he's in charge or should be with how he's written 70% of the fluff. Not even close. Dan has beaten his editors into submission and gets away with a lot of stuff.
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Apr 1, 2024 14:21
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StrixNebulosa posted:Is Dan Abbett like, king lore guy at GW? It feels like he's in charge or should be with how he's written 70% of the fluff. Abnett is the crown jewel of the Black Library writing team, and deservedly so, but he doesn't get to decide the directions the grand story arc takes. He still answers to GW management, and works within the boundaries they define and develops storylines that suit their overall purposes. So like, the big reveal in Legion of Alpharius actually being twins came from GW, it wasn't something Abnett decided on. He does not choose the course of the setting. When he's writing his own series like the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, or Eisenhorn/Ravenor/Bequin, he isn't tied into the grand story arc. He has the freedom to write the stories he wants, within the basic confines of the setting, as long as he doesn't do anything to rock the boat. Whatever happens with Gaunt's Ghosts will have no effect on the setting as a whole (I'm personally hoping they eventually get to settle a new planet of their own, but that Gaunt dies, Moses-like, at the very entrance to the promised land). Same with Eisenhorn, Ravenor, and Bequin. Yes, that means the King in Yellow plotline will ultimately go nowhere.
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Apr 1, 2024 14:28
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Apropos GW personalities, everyone should check out the interviews put out by https://youtube.com/@Filmdegminiatures?si=9TV22tlo_fIQehtl He has interviewed a lot of the old personalities and there's some great stuff about the early days of warhammer and rogue trader
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Apr 1, 2024 14:41
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StrixNebulosa posted:That's not what I asked though? Yeah my response was unclear. I was implying what other people said more clearly after me. Sorry!
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Apr 1, 2024 14:43
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Even way back then, they deeply cared about the setting and overallbstory, but it'd often come about as a result of someone like Blanche making a kickass illustration and vague description of who/what was depicted, then someone else worked backwards to turn it into worldbuilding
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Apr 1, 2024 14:44
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Ahhhh okay that all makes sense. Thanks for the detailed answers, everyone. PS as a Transformers fan I understand the toys come first
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Apr 1, 2024 14:48
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imo 40K's worldbuilding should be messy and chaotic and sometimes contradictory. 40,000 years is a ridiculous amount of time, and the galaxy is so big it's hard to put into words how big it is.
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Apr 1, 2024 14:49
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Kylaer posted:So like, the big reveal in Legion of Alpharius actually being twins came from GW, it wasn't something Abnett decided on. in that one according to the Ars technica interview with him, he actually had a whole list of things he wanted to get away with and they let him do all of them. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/05/unsolved-mysteries-of-the-warhammer-40k-universe-with-loremaster-dan-abnett/
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Apr 1, 2024 14:50
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Bohemian Nights posted:Even way back then, they deeply cared about the setting and overallbstory, but it'd often come about as a result of someone like Blanche making a kickass illustration and vague description of who/what was depicted, then someone else worked backwards to turn it into worldbuilding For BL, I feel authors had way more freedom back then, but on the other hand, a tighter creative control (probably?) means you're less likely to have people writing poo poo like C.S Goto and Henry Zhou.
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Apr 1, 2024 14:51
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TehRedWheelbarrow posted:in that one according to the Ars technica interview with him, he actually had a whole list of things he wanted to get away with and they let him do all of them. Yes, and they added the twins secret on top of his. He describes it nicely in the afterword to Legion, and it dovetails precisely with what we're discussing. quote:Now, the thing is, when you’re writing for a huge intellectual property like Warhammer 40,000 it’s quite hard to find any big, official secrets that you’re actually allowed to, you know, reveal. That’s just the way it works. The Big Deal Secrets of the Universe, what Laurie would call the ‘front-facing’ secrets, are already there, in the Codexes and rulebooks. Basically, if it ain’t in the published background, it ain’t public knowledge. You can’t just go around inventing canon willy-nilly. In order to reveal a piece of seriously core, previously unrevealed, long-term background canon, you have to ask nicely.
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Apr 1, 2024 15:01
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What's odd is that I can really only think of two "big reveals" from that book, and the other is the Cabal. So what were his other five?
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Apr 1, 2024 15:04
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One is that Abnett is actually Alpharius Another is that so am I. The third is you are, too
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Apr 1, 2024 15:07
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Abnetts does not talk like someone who has heavy management control over him. Maybe he’s used to it and it’s not an issue
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Apr 1, 2024 15:09
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euphronius posted:Abnetts does not talk like someone who has heavy management control over him. Maybe he’s used to it and it’s not an issue He strikes me as a guy who's used to collaborative storytelling. His work in comics and other shared universes backs that up.
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Apr 1, 2024 15:18
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Yeah that seems accurate
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Apr 1, 2024 15:28
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40K offers its writers a big sandbox to play in, too. The walls are high, but they're far away - there's tons of room for writing stories with no fear of being told "No" by management. Again I'd like to point at Gaunt's Ghosts, which started with some short stories in White Dwarf magazine (IIRC) and is now a sprawling main series plus multiple tie-in books both by Abnett and by other authors. It doesn't get anywhere close to pushing the boundaries of the setting, but that's okay, it doesn't need to, it's not that kind of story. 40K is at its best when the author gets you to care about the individual or small group, rather than the entire galaxy.
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Apr 1, 2024 15:39
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OPAONI posted:He strikes me as a guy who's used to collaborative storytelling. His work in comics and other shared universes backs that up. GW lore definitely seems collaborative. It’s been said itt before, but some of the worst GW writers are the best editors, so it appears that a lot of people have their hand in planning. There’s no telling how long the Lion has been on deck.
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Apr 1, 2024 15:42
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The shard of the emperor is already back in current lore. The star child was born at the end of one of the recent Dawn of Fire books and Abaddon's hand is searching for it.
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Apr 1, 2024 16:38
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Abnett has teased that he was happily surprised that GW would let him do whatever he's doing with the Yellow King. I feel like the lore is in an interesting state right now: we have a couple primarchs hopping around again, the Custodians are out and about in the galaxy again, whatever the Yellow King seems to be leading towards, the throne is failing, the emperor is actually somewhat active again as a warp presence like when he dumped himself into Gulliman and made Nurgle poo poo his feculant pants. So that's neat. This is all relatively recent stuff, we're a long way from the days of reading Ciaphus Cain footnotes to see that the imperium still exists in m42 or whatever. I think it's okay if the Imperium wins sometimes honestly. It just can't ever actually win.
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Apr 1, 2024 17:57
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Demiurge4 posted:Since it's Abnett I think it's very likely that Saint Sabbat is drawing her power from there. It seemed like a direct reference to the current plot of the dawn of fire books imho
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Apr 1, 2024 18:04
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The imperium has to substantially win sometimes. It’d be boring otherwise
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Apr 1, 2024 18:26
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Blue Raider posted:The imperium has to substantially win sometimes. It’d be boring otherwise That's one of the reasons I love Twice-Dead King so much, it actually shows the Imperium from the outside perspective as terrifying.
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Apr 1, 2024 18:42
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