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General Battuta posted:I hate Hull Zero Three! what's so bad about Hull Zero Three?
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# ? Apr 27, 2024 23:43 |
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# ? May 15, 2024 03:30 |
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I thought it fell into the common late-Bear (Hull 03, Legacy, the middle of the three Halo novels he did) pattern of 'funky little guys wander through an alien environment with no idea what's going on, but not in a cool way.' Just a strange combination of alienating and tedious. Side by side with Eon there's just no comparison.
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 00:18 |
I thought it was Just Fine but "cloud modest" and "WE! ARE! HERE!" from the intro/outro really stuck in my mind.
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 00:19 |
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re: language and loan words, for years I had a snobby attitude about KJ Parker because one of his books used the word "kudos" and I found it unbearably anachronistic and wrote him off as a hack. When I learned about it being a Greek loanword from the 18th century I felt quite foolish.
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 00:54 |
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John Lee posted:This is a really funny complaint for this book in particular Ah, a few more pages down the line I see what you mean. Yeah, pretty funny. It’s been a while since I’ve read it, I had forgotten a lot.
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 01:36 |
mllaneza posted:Philip J. Fry, his eyes narrowed.
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 03:07 |
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Darmok is definitely considered one of the best episodes ever, I've never even seen anyone get snippy over the universal translator not working. What nerds.CaptainRat posted:re: language and loan words, for years I had a snobby attitude about KJ Parker because one of his books used the word "kudos" and I found it unbearably anachronistic and wrote him off as a hack. Yeah, this happens to me all the time. Like, finding out that Tiffany has been a common English language girls name since the 1100s. It's just the English version of Theophania.
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 03:28 |
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habeasdorkus posted:Tiffany has been a common English language girls name since the 1100s. It's just the English version of Theophania. https://youtu.be/9LMr5XTgeyI?si=PChvGMamrEE5pLBR
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 03:32 |
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LOL. Well that was a delightful video, though I guess I would have been more correct to have said "extant in English since the 1100s" than "common."
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 03:39 |
habeasdorkus posted:Darmok is definitely considered one of the best episodes ever, I've never even seen anyone get snippy over the universal translator not working. What nerds. When people around me get lovely about people naming their kids after made up TV names, I get to explain how many of the names we now consider common were actually made up within the past 150 years. Shakespeare was prolific in making up names from nothing, and being huge in pop culture, people then named their kids after it.
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 03:39 |
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mllaneza posted:Philip J. Fry, his eyes narrowed. We've gone further than that. We have entire meta communication where a few symbols or letters or even file names convey language, though it's mostly niche subcultures. The intermet has made it especially prevalent. poo poo like: I II I I_ Has become a thing of it's own. With it's own language and identity surrounding it. I still occasionally see relatively ancient memes mutated and condensed. There was an image of George Costanza holding a baseball bat, ready to swing, often accompanied with "I seriously hope you guys don't do this" eventually it turned into the image accompanied by ISHYGSGT then Shiggy before people eventually just posting the text only or just "constanza.jpg". All of it being the same way to convey the same idea, that 4chan is filled with idiots.
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 04:24 |
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Ravus Ursus posted:We've gone further than that. We have entire meta communication where a few symbols or letters or even file names convey language, though it's mostly niche subcultures.
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 04:42 |
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Colbert
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 04:49 |
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habeasdorkus posted:Darmok is definitely considered one of the best episodes ever, I've never even seen anyone get snippy over the universal translator not working. What nerds.. It's also a terrible argument because the universal translator does work. It translates phrases like "his arms wide" into English.
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 06:59 |
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Sokath, his eyes uncovered!
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 07:15 |
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It's worth noting that Gene Wolfe did it first in one of the Book of the New Sun books. The one where Severian is sitting around in a military hospital, and they're all telling stories, and there's a soldier from the other side there too. Only the other side are some kind of strawman hyper-Maoists and the only speech they're allowed is from a book of approved political aphorisms. So someone familiar enough with the approved book has to translate for him. Wolfe also handled the sense of ancient languages in a far-future where English is long dead by just using Latin for old stuff relative to the setting.
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 08:18 |
Re: immersion-breaking loan words, I’m reminded of Asimov’s preface to Nightfall (novel):an ironically long explanation of ‘semantic convenience’ posted:Kalgash is an alien world and it is not our intention to have you think that it is identical to Earth, even though we depict its people as speaking a language that you can understand, and using terms that are familiar to you. Those words should be understood as mere equivalents of alien terms-that is, a conventional set of equivalents of the same sort that a writer of novels uses when he has foreign characters speaking with each other in their own language but nevertheless transcribes their words in the language of the reader. So when the people of Kalgash speak of "miles," or "hands," or "cars," or "computers," they mean their own units of distance, their own grasping-organs, their own ground-transportation devices, their own information-processing machines, etc. The computers used on Kalgash are not necessarily compatible with the ones used in New York or London or Stockholm, and the "mile" that we use in this book is not necessarily the American unit of 5,280 feet. But it seemed simpler and more desirable to use these familiar terms in describing events on this wholly alien world than it would have been to invent a long series of wholly Kalgashian terms.
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 14:31 |
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Maybe just imagine the whole book, this writing stuff is tiring
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 14:40 |
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I liked how Vernor Vinge dealt with this in Deepness in the Sky and the spider civilization
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 14:44 |
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shrike82 posted:I liked how Vernor Vinge dealt with this in Deepness in the Sky and the spider civilization Frosn”tgathath Cooper
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 16:52 |
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habeasdorkus posted:Darmok is definitely considered one of the best episodes ever, I've never even seen anyone get snippy over the universal translator not working. What nerds. There's so many other places that the universal translator makes little to no sense if you try to think about it (for instance, Picard using a French phrase, then having to explain it in English, or Klingon somehow being immune to translation). It's like the transporters, it's there as a way to make the show work, and shouldn't be examined unless an episode wants to use that piece of tech as a hinge point, and then you should just assume it works that way for that episode. There's no way to really reconcile all the ways writers have changed how it works. So it works until it doesn't, then doesn't work until it does.
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 17:15 |
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The Way of Kings (Stormlight Archive #1) by Brandon Sanderson - $2.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003P2WO5E/ Foundryside (Founders #1) by Robert Jackson Bennett - $1.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077RG422Z/ Senlin Ascends (Books of Babel #1) by Josiah Bancroft - $2.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074M62D7Y/ The Pariah (Covenant of Steel #1) by Anthony Ryan - $2.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08PV49R1G/ The Wolf's Call (Raven's Blade #1) by Anthony Ryan - $2.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07JYNY9N3/ The Book That Wouldn't Burn (Library #1) by Mark Lawrence - $2.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B6B5CPF6/ I, Robot by Isaac Asimov - $1.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FC1PW0/ The Goblin Emperor (Chronicles of Osreth #1) by Katherine Addison - $2.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FO6NPIO/ Kushiel's Dart (Kushiel's Legacy #1) by Jacqueline Carey - $2.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0055DLCAY/ Storm Front (Dresden Files #1) by Jim Butcher - $1.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000WH7PLS/ The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian (Conan the Barbarian #1) by Robert E Howard - $1.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FBJE24/ Age of Myth (Legends of the First Empire #1) by Michael J Sullivan - $2.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B015BCX0S0/ The Steel Remains (Land Fit for Heroes #1) by Richard K Morgan - $1.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001NLKS66/
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 18:02 |
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Re: language in fantasy books, I know there's a balance to be struck between using a sort of "neutral" English, having in-world aphorisms and profanities and slang and poo poo, but also not making the characters sound inhuman. But the result is always that pressure from publishers and editors means "neutral" English is very American. That's why one of the things I appreciated most about the locked tomb series is how they're written in a NZ vernacular and it's even totally justified in-universe.
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 20:57 |
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voiceless anal fricative posted:Re: language in fantasy books, I know there's a balance to be struck between using a sort of "neutral" English, having in-world aphorisms and profanities and slang and poo poo, but also not making the characters sound inhuman. But the result is always that pressure from publishers and editors means "neutral" English is very American. That's why one of the things I appreciated most about the locked tomb series is how they're written in a NZ vernacular and it's even totally justified in-universe. Is that what the gently caress is happening in here? This entire thing makes way more sense when you retroactively apply an Aussie accent to it. The second person stuff still feels like some David Attenborough whispered intensity. Is the third book another pivot in style?
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 21:01 |
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Ravus Ursus posted:Is that what the gently caress is happening in here? Not major spoilers really, but the main characters are all canonically New Zealanders or cultures descended from the same. So retroactively applying a NZ accent is more accurate. The author is a kiwi, also. Book three is another pivot in style yes, and it's quite fan service-y for the first 3/4 of it and then the actual plot kicks back in. So if you haven't enjoyed Gideon and Harrow, Nona probably isn't going to hit right.
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 21:20 |
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Tarnop posted:Maybe just imagine the whole book, this writing stuff is tiring
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 21:26 |
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habeasdorkus posted:Darmok is definitely considered one of the best episodes ever, I've never even seen anyone get snippy over the universal translator not working. What nerds. I remember it being received poorly at the time.
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 21:52 |
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Dark Matter by Blake Crouch was a great take on the multiverse theory, focusing on the personal consequences of knowing a multiverse exists. The trailer for the Netflix adaptation looks like it's going to be pretty faithful; I saw many scenes lifted directly from the book. There's some scenes in it that imply they're going to give his wife more to do, so that and the parts with parallel world hopping will let them stretch it out to a full series.Gully Foyle posted:There's so many other places that the universal translator makes little to no sense if you try to think about it (for instance, Picard using a French phrase, then having to explain it in English, or Klingon somehow being immune to translation). It's like the transporters, it's there as a way to make the show work, and shouldn't be examined unless an episode wants to use that piece of tech as a hinge point, and then you should just assume it works that way for that episode. There's no way to really reconcile all the ways writers have changed how it works. Maybe the translator picks up intent, and Picard intended to say something that needed translation? Or insert Futurama joke about French being a dead language here.
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 22:13 |
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LifeLynx posted:Dark Matter by Blake Crouch was a great take on the multiverse theory 100% disagree, I hated this book. He writes himself into a corner and then resolves the plot with the stupidest outcome
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 22:35 |
There's also, of course, The Dawnhounds by a poster on our very own forums, which is also very kiwi and the author had to fight to keep some stuff in that is specifically new zealand slang etc.
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 23:37 |
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mewse posted:100% disagree, I hated this book. He writes himself into a corner and then resolves the plot with the stupidest outcome It was a good resolution I thought. He got lucky I thought, other copies seemed to be moments away from devising a similar plan. Someone has to be the first. Then all the other copies at the end were ones who were willing to settle things "honorably" in their/his mind, so when they saw Daniela was happy, they relented. Wrapped up sufficiently for me. It took me about three hours to read it, so I can forgive a lot of its faults for being a quick read.
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# ? Apr 28, 2024 23:49 |
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Stuporstar posted:Yeah, pretty much every abstract concept uses metaphor to describe it that’s so dead it’s no longer visible. Reading https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphors_We_Live_By, I was thinking about how an sff novel might better represent another culture by coming up with a completely different set of metaphors for common concepts, like not thinking of time as a limited resource as we do. I noticed while translating some hieroglyphics the metaphor “beatifying time” to mean leisure, which is such a foreign way to think about time that I’ve pondered it for a while. According to structural and post-structural theorists like Saussere, Derrida, and forums favorite Barthes, language itself is fundamentally metaphorical. Just like the metaphor's vehicle stands for its tenor, the sign's signifier stands for its signified, and that signified may not be a singular thing or idea but instead entire chains of associations that differ from person to person and context to context but are mostly close enough to work in everyday practice. In that sense, the complaints about the universal translator are valid because the Tamarian language works like any other sign system. But since part of the episode's point is to illustrate the metaphorical nature of language, I think we can give the universal translator a pass.
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# ? Apr 29, 2024 00:24 |
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I've been working my way through the Cradle series and it is really scratching that "Dragon Ball Z but in novel form" itch that I didn't know I wanted scratched. I don't think its the absolute best thing I've ever read but I've been enjoying it enough that I have plowed through the first five books back to back. I think I got it for free on Amazon with the exception of the most recent book.
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# ? Apr 29, 2024 00:35 |
Deptfordx posted:Just finished Robert Jackson Bennets The Tainted Cup Wait someone did this other than glen Cooke? Well thats a buy
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# ? Apr 29, 2024 00:41 |
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KKKLIP ART posted:I've been working my way through the Cradle series and it is really scratching that "Dragon Ball Z but in novel form" itch that I didn't know I wanted scratched. I don't think its the absolute best thing I've ever read but I've been enjoying it enough that I have plowed through the first five books back to back. I think I got it for free on Amazon with the exception of the most recent book. Check out the Web serials thread
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# ? Apr 29, 2024 02:10 |
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It's a sad thing, getting to the end of Cradle and realizing it's the best of its kind in English and there's not really anywhere to go from there but down. Usually quite a precipitous drop down, too.
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# ? Apr 29, 2024 02:47 |
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LifeLynx posted:Maybe the translator picks up intent, and Picard intended to say something that needed translation? Or insert Futurama joke about French being a dead language here. I forget if it’s ever stated in a show but Roddenberry definitely stated his intent was that French and most non-English were basically dead by the 24th century. I think an episode of the Picard show had him mention he was trying to learn French, too. That being said I recall the pilot episode of Enterprise having Hoshi teach languages in… Brazil, I think?
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# ? Apr 29, 2024 03:24 |
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PeterWeller posted:According to structural and post-structural theorists like Saussere, Derrida, and forums favorite Barthes, language itself is fundamentally metaphorical. Just like the metaphor's vehicle stands for its tenor, the sign's signifier stands for its signified, and that signified may not be a singular thing or idea but instead entire chains of associations that differ from person to person and context to context but are mostly close enough to work in everyday practice. In a similar vein, I was reading Owen Barfield’s Poetic Diction (he was the friend of Tolkien who inspired him to come up with a whole myth cycle to prop up his conlang), and though I don’t agree with the idea that “primitive man existed in a total poetic metaphorical state of mind unlike our rational minds today” because that’s way too much like other Modernist armchair philosophers assuming a human mental progression (of already anatomically modern humans) based on almost no evidence (and Western Civilization chauvinism), it does remind me a bit of that Star Trek episode. Like the universal translator had no problem with simple Tamarian words like “arms” and pronouns and such, so obviously they have simple concrete words. It’s just the bigger, more complex and abstract concepts they’re building up with phrases from their epic poetry. It’s like if people used Bible quotes to say everything important. Like greater expressions of thought and feeling must be expressed in the magnificent whole, rather than being compressed into “doubting Thomas” or “Judas.” And the whole episode is basically a huge metaphor for this kinda linguistic thought, which is very cool
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# ? Apr 29, 2024 04:58 |
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Gully Foyle posted:So it works until it doesn't, then doesn't work until it does.
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# ? Apr 29, 2024 08:58 |
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# ? May 15, 2024 03:30 |
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silvergoose posted:There's also, of course, The Dawnhounds by a poster on our very own forums, which is also very kiwi and the author had to fight to keep some stuff in that is specifically new zealand slang etc. the sequel to that's coming out soon! there was some legit publisher bullshit, but it appears to have cessated and it will soon be in the world.
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# ? Apr 29, 2024 09:27 |