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Vorenus posted:Can you provide sources for this because I for one find it unconscionable that Israel would report inaccurate numbers. There's been a consistant pattern of COGAT's, the Israeli authority tasked with inspecting aid into Gaza, claims being attacked as false Here is an article of the COGAT lying about aid coming in and UNWRA calling them out and posting pictures https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-793473 UNWRA again quote:A spokesman for the United Nations' humanitarian agency pointed to statistics from March showing that it was much more difficult to get clearance for delivering food than other aid in the war-ravaged Palestinian territory. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20240409-israel-blocking-more-food-than-other-aid-in-hunger-stalked-gaza-un It isn't hard to find absurd Israeli claims about the amount of aid coming in and any numbe of NGOs calling them out on it. The above is just a small sample.
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Apr 30, 2024 18:28
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quote:He pointed out that the trucks screened by COGAT were "typically only half-full. That is a requirement that they have put in place for screening purposes". This part really puts reported numbers in perspective...
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Apr 30, 2024 18:59
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Didn't they also like about opening a new crossing after they killed the Central Kitchen folks and never actually opened it? Edit yeah: https://english.elpais.com/internat...sed-to-aid.html Knesset voted to open it in early April and surprise it's not open. Maybe something changed between the 9th and now but wouldn't hold my breath E2M2 fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 21:58
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Somebody already made a comment ridiculing the performative reality of the pier only providing "10%" of the food required for Gaza (if I remember correctly), but I thought I'd take the opportunity to point out some obvious things that aren't being addressed by the posters who appear to believe that the government which is literally committing genocide along with Israel actually totally wants to prevent the starvation of the victims of their genocide. The NYT article states a theoretical maximum throughput of 150 trucks/day at an undisclosed point in the future. Bar Run Dun helpfully translated 150 trucks into 300 tonnes, putting that into google to end up at 661,387 pounds. They also provided the unsourced claim that 3-5 pounds is the average/reference for per diem diet of "westerners". The NYT article also pointed out that 1,100,000 people are already starving. code:code:Then if you take into account the fact that every truck will not carry one volume-filling hunk of edible, imperishable food, you'll realize the packaging eats away at the total through its own weight/volume. On top of that, there are other supplies which are not edible; they might include cooking oil, burners, water or other food-related paraphernalia, medical supplies, fuel, clothing, etc. If America is contributing, we could expect plastic toy food or Joe Biden '24 election stickers and lawn-signs. In any case, we're cutting into the total there (likely quite significantly), so 12%-20% is clearly an extremely generous estimate. On top of that, this is assuming that all the food that arrives in Gaza will be received by all 1.1 million starving Palestinians which is obviously not going to happen. I don't think it really needs to be explained, but any food which does not get eaten by a starving person is effectively waste in this context. The Americans, according to the NYT article, have literally no plan on how to get aid to north Gaza, and the article hilariously claims that convoys will just have to co-ordinate with the IDF (who famously murder aid workers). Over 100,000 people are in north Gaza and are being entirely ignored by this plan. If one were prone to idealize the situation, one could pretend that all the aid shipped in through the pier is food ludicrously dense in nutrients/calories and only 1 pound is necessary for each person per day. If one chose to start from there and assume nothing goes wrong, everything works perfectly, every truck is filled to the brim with the aforementioned single imperishable stone of such a food and no packaging, and everybody in Gaza has access to their daily ration, that would still only be (661,387 / 1,100,000) ~66% of the daily requirement. So, when I call the pier a performative act, it is due to the blatantly inadequate nature of its theoretical throughput. It is due to the context of the US actively committing genocide against Gaza alongside Israel. It is due to the infinite possibilities available through imagination and unparalleled political, military and economic power of the global hegemon being dismissed. It is through the repeated assurances that Israel cannot lose American support. It is through the absolute disregard for the possibility of utilizing the road crossings which are more efficient, faster and have actually accomplished the purported goal of adequate aid delivery before.
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Apr 30, 2024 21:59
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Also IIRC those food trucks all have to be half empty because thay's a requirement for them to be allowed through
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Apr 30, 2024 22:26
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Giggs posted:Somebody already made a comment ridiculing the performative reality of the pier only providing "10%" of the food required for Gaza (if I remember correctly), but I thought I'd take the opportunity to point out some obvious things that aren't being addressed by the posters who appear to believe that the government which is literally committing genocide along with Israel actually totally wants to prevent the starvation of the victims of their genocide. Bar Ran Dun missed a zero. A 20 foot container truck like would be loaded onto these RO/RO ships holds around 20 tonnes net weight, not 2. 2 tonnes is like a fully loaded small box truck. Multiple sources show that the aid trucks entering gaza average between 10-15 tonnes of actual cargo: https://www.wfp.org/stories/hungers-border-why-aid-trucks-taking-humanitarian-gear-and-food-gaza-face-long-waits https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68551965 This washington post article says the JLOTS will transit 1700 short tons, or 1500 tonnes, which makes way more sense: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2024/gaza-aid-truck-sea-airdrop/ It's still not enough to meet all their food needs, won't really help their critical non-food issues and Israel might clamp down the ground crossings more, using this as an excuse but if those crossings stay open at the current rate when this is added, it would make a huge impact in food security. Kagrenak fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 22:30
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That’s correct 20 tons per and I didn’t notice my error.
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Apr 30, 2024 23:10
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Giggs posted:So, when I call the pier a performative act, it is due to the blatantly inadequate nature of its theoretical throughput. The error makes a pretty big difference in the whole calculation, 150 trucks per day at 20 tons per truck would be about 6.6 million pounds, which would be more than is required per the calculation. Also, considering the obesity rate in any Western country I don't know if the average diet of "Westerners" is a meaningful metric to calculate how much food is required to be well-nourished, not to mention that there's a pretty significant difference between 3 and 5 pounds of food. I get the rationale behind the calculation and I am also not hopeful the pier will get in as much food as some people are saying it will, but it is a whole lot of words and numbers to say nothing meaningful even if the numbers used were correct. rkd_ fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 23:13
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rkd_ posted:Also, considering the obesity rate in any Western country I don't know if the average diet of "Westerners" is a meaningful metric to calculate how much food is required to be well-nourished, not to mention that there's a pretty significant difference between 3 and 5 pounds of food. how many calories do Arabs really need? cant be the same as normal people right? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 1, 2024 00:07
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punishedkissinger posted:how many calories do Arabs really need? cant be the same as normal people right? That clearly wasn't the meaning of the post. rkd_ posted:The error makes a pretty big difference in the whole calculation, 150 trucks per day at 20 tons per truck would be about 6.6 million pounds, which would be more than is required per the calculation. Of course this is all just pissing in the wind as long as there is a genocide going on. Vorenus fucked around with this message at 00:27 on May 1, 2024 |
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May 1, 2024 00:21
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punishedkissinger posted:how many calories do Arabs really need? cant be the same as normal people right? He phrased it pretty poorly but immediate famine prevention can go way below three pounds and it's not unreasonable to have an actual healthy sustained diet thereabouts. You're being a bit of an rear end. looks like Vorenus posted a bit in the way of actual numbers e: plumpy nut, the standard for immediate high density famine relief, is basically vitamin fortified peanut butter, which clocks in at 2600 calories a pound or so. this is obviously one end of the continuum and the stuff being shipped in is mostly not that high density probably, a lot more starches and such. There was that whole thing about Israel generously letting some bakeries reopen Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 00:31 on May 1, 2024 |
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May 1, 2024 00:25
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As I understand it most of the food delivered will be energy-dense products such as flour, which provides somewhere in the region of 1500 calories per pound once prepared (I'm basing this off a factsheet that puts it at 3-3.5 calories per gram). At that rate and the numbers cited above the pier theoretically could meet Gaza's food need, although I suspect the security and logistical challenges would be too great for it to be feasible in practice even assuming no direct interference from Israel.
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May 1, 2024 00:35
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if imported fresh water is needed to replace destroyed or overstressed utilities (which i suspect is probably the case), that's going to add up to a lot of tonnage pretty quickly but again i don't believe that physical throughput is the problem here. i don't see trucks jammed in the crossing and on the roads and distribution points in gaza, the bottleneck is at the crossings because israel is not clearing enough trucks to meet current demand
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May 1, 2024 00:49
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It has been a combo of Israel slowing things down, and civilian protestors blocking aid trucks at the crossings
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May 1, 2024 00:50
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rkd_ posted:The error makes a pretty big difference in the whole calculation, 150 trucks per day at 20 tons per truck would be about 6.6 million pounds, which would be more than is required per the calculation. Kagrenak posted:Bar Ran Dun missed a zero. A 20 foot container truck like would be loaded onto these RO/RO ships holds around 20 tonnes net weight, not 2. 2 tonnes is like a fully loaded small box truck. Multiple sources show that the aid trucks entering gaza average between 10-15 tonnes of actual cargo: Kagrenak posted:It's still not enough to meet all their food needs, won't really help their critical non-food issues and Israel might clamp down the ground crossings more, using this as an excuse but if those crossings stay open at the current rate when this is added, it would make a huge impact in food security. washington post posted:These circumventions of the border chokepoints are no substitute for an increase in deliveries by routes that already exist, experts say. rkd_ posted:I get the rationale behind the calculation and I am also not hopeful the pier will get in as much food as some people are saying it will, but it is a whole lot of words and numbers to say nothing meaningful even if the numbers used were correct. washington post posted:These aid deliveries, however high-profile, are a long way from meeting Gaza’s basic requirements: Even under optimistic scenarios, they would be unlikely to match prewar figures, let alone to meet the heightened level of need after more than five months of conflict, experts say. So while the potential tonnage might be much higher it doesn't really address any other aspect of this being performative. To put it another way: It is an action which does not seek in any way to ameliorate the causes of the problem, it could only potentially reach the first stage of the bare minimum for a potential solution to the symptoms to the problem, and the actor refuses to take any of the much more effective pathways to a solution that are available. The pier appears to be a solution only if one ignores everything but the most surface level inspection of the scenario.
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May 1, 2024 00:50
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FlamingLiberal posted:It has been a combo of Israel slowing things down, and civilian protestors blocking aid trucks at the crossings I'd frame them less as protesters blocking aid access, and more like genocide street parties with full Israeli governmental support.
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May 1, 2024 01:00
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Yes I agree, it’s just a convenient excuse for the government
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May 1, 2024 02:32
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:I'd frame them less as protesters blocking aid access, and more like genocide street parties with full Israeli governmental support. The NYPD has a branch in Israel. Couldn't they go down and remove the protestors?
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May 1, 2024 07:26
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Butter Activities posted:"evacuating" Palestinians is also genocide in any reasonable interpretation of the word.
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May 1, 2024 08:45
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CSM posted:You state this with conviction, but ethnic cleansing/population transfer isn't an act that falls under the genocide convention. Strictly this is true, it's "just" ethnic cleansing (unless it involves separating children from their families). But they're trying to force people into relocation by deliberately killing and imposing unlivable conditions on the entire population, which does fall under the genocide convention.
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May 1, 2024 10:14
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CSM posted:You state this with conviction, but ethnic cleansing/population transfer isn't an act that falls under the genocide convention. You cant really do it without genocide, because asking them to leave and then just sitting around when they tell you to gently caress off doesn't work.
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May 1, 2024 11:46
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CSM posted:You state this with conviction, but ethnic cleansing/population transfer isn't an act that falls under the genocide convention. Then that’s a problem with the convention as written.
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May 1, 2024 13:44
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CSM posted:You state this with conviction, but ethnic cleansing/population transfer isn't an act that falls under the genocide convention. It's still defined as a crime against humanity under international law and a violation of both the fourth Geneva convention and the Rome Statute. It would be an additional charge brought alongside genocide against Israel's leadership. In colloquial use the two terms and concepts absolutely overlap and in history they tend to co-occur. I don't think it's unreasonable for international law to define them separately though as bringing the charges in a severable way is probably better for prosecutorial flexibility. Your gleeful tone about it not technically being genocide is pretty gross. Kagrenak fucked around with this message at 14:11 on May 1, 2024 |
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May 1, 2024 13:52
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Question: Is discussion of antiwar protests and demosntrations best done here, or in the US politics thread? Things got rough last night at the UCLA demonstrator camp, as a mob of zionist counter-protestors atacked. They tried to tear down the encampment, beat what lone people and aid volunteers they could find with pipes, and shot loving -fireworks- into the crowd. https://dailybruin.com/2024/05/01/pro-israel-counter-protesters-attempt-to-storm-encampment-sparking-violence The chants and shouts were, as you might expect, far lessabout feeling unsafe than calling for a new nakba. The NYT report is back on full, glorious passive voice arstitry of the "clashes erupted" variety.
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May 1, 2024 13:59
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Sephyr posted:Question: Is discussion of antiwar protests and demosntrations best done here, or in the US politics thread? I am currently awaiting the statement from the White House condemning this.
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May 1, 2024 14:01
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Nucleic Acids posted:I am currently awaiting the statement from the White House condemning this. Biden will condemn the violence and then ship the counterprotestors crates of fireworks right?
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May 1, 2024 14:03
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The Israelis will take every chance to smugly declare that X thing is not genocide so it's good to at least be aware of the technicalities. Of course this does mean that their moral fallback is that it's "just" ethnic cleansing, war crimes, and atrocities against civilians.
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May 1, 2024 14:08
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indiscriminate mass murder of civilians
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May 1, 2024 15:11
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punishedkissinger posted:Biden will condemn the violence and then ship the counterprotestors crates of fireworks right? I know this sentiment has been beaten to death over the last ~12 years but Biden getting his own “very fine people on both sides” moment would be hack writing in a lovely tv show, and yet
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May 1, 2024 15:11
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:I know this sentiment has been beaten to death over the last ~12 years but Biden getting his own “very fine people on both sides” moment would be hack writing in a lovely tv show, and yet He's already said he condemns people that "don't know what's going on with the Palestinians" like the day before he sent Israel another $20 billion
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May 1, 2024 15:15
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Sephyr posted:Question: Is discussion of antiwar protests and demosntrations best done here, or in the US politics thread? Lol pro-Israel protestors are just like Israel itself: declare themselves threatened and in imminent danger while instigating the violence. UCLA should probably suspend all the pro-Israel protestors just to be safe.
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May 1, 2024 15:27
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An interview with Yair Lapid, who is leading the opposition to Netanyahu in the Israeli parliament, from a few days ago that I didn't see posted here. I recommend listening to it so you an hear the back and forth between the interviewer and Lapid. Google gave me a link to the transcript (which has a link to the podcast) https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/27/magazine/yair-lapid-interview.html If you were hoping for anything other than towing the line and hand waving at civilians getting killed, well, you won't find it here.
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May 1, 2024 15:29
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fool of sound posted:Lol pro-Israel protestors are just like Israel itself: declare themselves threatened and in imminent danger while instigating the violence. I think we all know who is getting suspended after last night.
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May 1, 2024 15:29
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CSM posted:You state this with conviction, but ethnic cleansing/population transfer isn't an act that falls under the genocide convention. You’re right, population transfers enforced via the direct threat of killing people of an ethnic group if they don’t accept leaving technically might not fall under one definition based on certain interpretations. What an important point.
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May 1, 2024 15:38
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Butter Activities posted:You’re right, population transfers enforced via the direct threat of killing people of an ethnic group if they don’t accept leaving technically might not fall under one definition based on certain interpretations. What an important point. Well you see, killing them at their "safe" destination is genocide*, but displacing them to a place where you intend to kill them is just sparkling warcrime concentrate. *It's not officially genocide unless the US govt labels it such. Please beware of other organizations trying to pass off simple ethnic cleansing and mass murder as genuine genocide. Also here's a journalist actually challenging an Israeli govt spokesperson: https://twitter.com/SMohyeddin/status/1784208344346919015
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May 1, 2024 15:53
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https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1785638176981143874 And then Blinken blamed Hamas immediately after this.
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May 1, 2024 15:55
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CSM posted:You state this with conviction, but ethnic cleansing/population transfer isn't an act that falls under the genocide convention. Follow up question: is Israel committing genocide?
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May 1, 2024 15:58
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CSM posted:You state this with conviction, but ethnic cleansing/population transfer isn't an act that falls under the genocide convention. :upscale()/2014/07/02/063/n/1922283/90c842384353f39b_kramer-freaking-out-Jerry-Seinfeld-seinfeld-calm-down-1376957747g.gif) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 1, 2024 16:03
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fool of sound posted:Lol pro-Israel protestors are just like Israel itself: declare themselves threatened and in imminent danger while instigating the violence.
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May 1, 2024 16:08
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Vorenus posted:Also here's a journalist actually challenging an Israeli govt spokesperson: It’s pretty hard to watch, the answers he gives is literally how you dehumanise and detach yourself from victims of a war, even from the hostages they killed. Casualties are just mere mistakes that require regrouping and brainstorming on how to fine tune the process. It’s a business.
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May 1, 2024 17:12
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