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Slugworth posted:B) I technically shouldn't know what she makes, and have always sort of had the philosophy that I don't wanna know what other people make, or let them know what I make.
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May 1, 2024 03:17
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You should talk about pay. The only reason it was ever considered rude to discuss it is because that makes your manager's life easier, not because of any actual social etiquette breach. "Hey guys, why does the new person with less experience and credentials make more than me, and how are we going to fix that?"Arquinsiel posted:You don't have this, you were trained to think you do. Unlearn what you have learned. Share knowledge freely. Yeah this. Even the US protects your right to discuss wages and our collective labor laws are dogshit garbage. Parallelwoody fucked around with this message at 03:21 on May 1, 2024 |
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May 1, 2024 03:18
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Lockback posted:A) So its good that you feel well, remove the other person from the equation. Are you paid market rate? Do you have a BATNA that is significantly more? Is it possible this new person is just overpaid? Parallelwoody posted:"Hey guys, why does the new person with less experience and credentials make more than me, and how are we going to fix that?"
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May 1, 2024 13:23
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You have to have that conversation where you have real evidence that you are underpaid. Good news: you have evidence that you are underpaid. Bad news: you are begging, your BATNA is bad, and you just got a 20% bump, so it probably won't do much. I might save it for a pre-internal review discussion in the longer term, and maybe framed up more around what your career/advancement path is. If the only thing that is actually making you mad is knowing what someone else makes, you're on a little bit shaky ground if only because you won't be very strong in your ask and it can easily become a functional complaint about the other person. It sounds like you already do not like nor respect this other person so your conversation will almost certainly be tainted by that.
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May 1, 2024 13:35
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Slugworth posted:All fair points, I appreciate everyone's input. I think I was secretly hoping someone would tell me there was a certain way to loudly sigh that would inform them that I need to be paid more without an uncomfortable conversation. I think my current plan is gonna be essentially this: yes, there is. the phrase is, "i have received an outside offer and am considering taking it. i enjoy working here, but would need to make at least $X to stay." then you leave if they dont give it to you
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May 1, 2024 13:54
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:You have to have that conversation where you have real evidence that you are underpaid. Good news: you have evidence that you are underpaid. Bad news: you are begging, your BATNA is bad, and you just got a 20% bump, so it probably won't do much. Absolutely great advice. If truly you'd be just as happy if they said "You're right, we're going to cut that persons pay" then keep your trap shut because your on a path that will only hurt you and almost certainly not help you. If you have legit argument around your career growth and compensation great! But holding off until you have firmer ground (and "I just got a 20% bump I didn't ask for" is not very firm ground) is probably for the best.
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May 1, 2024 14:23
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And if you don't like that answer, and you're still not satisfied with your pay and position in the org, it's time to start looking.
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May 1, 2024 14:54
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Hi, all! Long-time lurker, first time poster. I’m working in financial software in UK, and have been approached by a US company to work for their London office. Both my current company and the new company compensation package are structured with a fairly low base pay, and bonus structure of around 20-40% on top, so generally, people leave after the bonuses are paid out. Assuming that the new company decides to grab me ASAP, and not wait for the current company to pay me my annual bonus, they may offer to buy out my bonus. How is this typically structured? Is there an expectation here that their first offer will say “you are liable to repay the bonus if we part ways within 2 years”, and I’m expected to push back so that if they fire me or make me redundant, then I don’t have to repay it? Are there any hidden gotchas around this that I should be aware of? The hiring manager is US-based, so I expect this conversation, if it happens, to follow US rules and conventions. Thanks!
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May 2, 2024 10:40
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Rules are typically bound to where you physically work, not where the company is based. I can't offer much help here, but it's perfectly reasonable to have the contract language state that you don't pay back any bonus/incentive/whatever if you are terminated by the organization.
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May 2, 2024 10:58
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Usually there's a period of time where if you leave you have to pay a signing bonus back on a pro-rated basis. The standard is "If you are laid off you keep, if you leave or are fired for cause you pay back", the "for cause" is usually pretty tightly defined in this case (it can't be for wearing an ugly shirt, but if you stop showing up you don't get to keep the bonus). Since your in the UK this will be in your employment contract and there's boilerplate, standard language that is typically used.In my experience the company is usually pretty lenient on letting people keep bonuses unless it's like a clear scam or maliciousness. Not out of any goodness, but it's prorated and there is a significant cost clawing back. The only time I've heard of it happening was when someone ghosted like 3 weeks in. It being a US company with a london office shouldn't meaningfully change anything around this. You may be able to negotiate the length of the period but probably won't be able to with the other terms. But do review it, if they are an outlier it may be a good place to negotiate other things to offset. Source: I'm in senior leadership of a US financial software company and have UK employees.
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May 2, 2024 14:58
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Thanks for the explanation, much appreciated!
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May 2, 2024 15:29
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i went from service economy take-it-or-gently caress-off pay, to a unionized professional job making more than my dad made right before retirement. still haven't had to actually deploy any of the advice i got reading this thread, but at least i'm not piss fuckin broke anymore
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May 2, 2024 16:07
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Cactus Ghost posted:i went from service economy take-it-or-gently caress-off pay, to a unionized professional job making more than my dad made right before retirement. still haven't had to actually deploy any of the advice i got reading this thread, but at least i'm not piss fuckin broke anymore Hopefully also not pissing blood.
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May 2, 2024 16:35
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My question was referred here from the pregnancy thread, since this has more to do with careers than brewing a baby -- Wife is halfway through her pregnancy and is interviewing for jobs after a layoff. Recently she advanced to a final round interview, while also learning that the hiring manager is halfway through her pregnancy. My wife, if hired, would be filling in during the bosses maternity leave. This presents a bit of a quandary, since wife would presumably be on maternity leave at the same time. Any thoughts on approaching this? On one hand, the hiring manager and larger company are likely to be ticked off at their hiring strategy being disrupted, and losing time to find a replacement. On the other hand, people shouldn't be denied an opportunity because of pregnancy. Legally, she is probably protected after being hired, but I'm wondering if there are other impacts to consider
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May 10, 2024 16:50
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Note: depending on your state you might not have protections. FMLA federally requires 12 months before it kicks in. Different states have different terms though. That said most large companies will be very hesitant to let someone go in that situation even if they legally can. Otherwise, why would you try to talk them out of hiring your wife? Don't mention it, it's not their business. But if you are planning on taking leave check to see what you're legally actually allowed to do. You may live in a state where she is only allowed whatever accrued PTO she has.
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May 10, 2024 17:17
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Oooof, that's a tough one. Yes, legally she is under no obligation to disclose and they might not be allowed to hold it against her if she does (or might, as Lockback says above). The rest of this post will assume that they legally can't fire her for going out on maternity leave. If they can, IMO the answer is cut and dried, she has to disclose and let them (probably) sever. Assuming that they can't. Practically... if they hire her for a role where the first and most important function is filling in for her boss while her boss is on maternity leave, and then immediately drops the bomb of "aaaaactually I'm going to be also out on maternity leave for pretty much exactly the same timeframe, seeya!" I mean, legally they can't retaliate but as a practical matter that will burn every bridge with that company and she'll very likely be back looking for work again soon. This is a very personal matter. It's entirely up to her how she wants to proceed, and she owes that company (or any company) nothing. Choosing to not disclose and deal with the consequences as they come is 100% a valid option and she should not feel bad if she chooses to pursue it. That said, if a friend or relative of mine asked me for "What do?" advice in this specific situation, my advice would have to be to go ahead and disclose, and be ready to accept the company moving on. But if you do go ahead and wait until you've started the job to disclose, just be prepared for the likely fallout from that, and be thinking ahead to how you're going to answer "Why did you leave this job so quickly?" in future interviews. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 17:24 on May 10, 2024 |
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May 10, 2024 17:21
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I was interviewing for a role at a very small company where the process dragged a bit longer than expected. I also know the founders. By the time the final offer would have come, I was under 2 months from my wife’s due date. I disclosed during the final interview, and (of course) didn’t get it. But they had mentioned earlier the process that they would be hiring more folks later, and basically told me to formally talk with them afterwards since I was 1 of 2 final candidates. We’ll see how it goes, but it could work out that I’ll still get the role in a few months. Important note; it helped that I also have current employment that would give me the leave I’m now on, so I could afford to wait. If unemployed, yeah that’s rough.
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May 10, 2024 17:46
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DarkLich posted:My question was referred here from the pregnancy thread, since this has more to do with careers than brewing a baby -- This is actually a legitimately interesting gray area. The company is interviewing with a clear expectation for the role: "cover for the hiring manager during her maternity leave" that your wife knowingly cannot meet, because she will also be out on maternity leave. 99 times out of 100 I'd say gently caress the company, disclose nothing, and get the job and the health insurance and etc. This is the 1 time where there is a legitimate conversation to be had because of the clear communication received and the clear knowledge which demands further discussion.
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May 13, 2024 01:50
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Cactus Ghost posted:i went from service economy take-it-or-gently caress-off pay, to a unionized professional job making more than my dad made right before retirement. still haven't had to actually deploy any of the advice i got reading this thread, but at least i'm not piss fuckin broke anymore I made more last year than my dad, and I quote him, “never, ever came close to”. That was a weird feeling. I’m 33 :/ Life’s sure not fair to anybody. But I’m very happy for you, welcome to the “not broke” club it’s nice here.
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May 13, 2024 02:16
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Eric the Mauve posted:That said, if a friend or relative of mine asked me for "What do?" advice in this specific situation, my advice would have to be to go ahead and disclose, and be ready to accept the company moving on. But if you do go ahead and wait until you've started the job to disclose, just be prepared for the likely fallout from that, and be thinking ahead to how you're going to answer "Why did you leave this job so quickly?" in future interviews.
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May 13, 2024 02:42
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madmatt112 posted:But I’m very happy for you, welcome to the “not broke” club it’s nice here. its so amazing. virtually every "problem" i have is total bullshit lol
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May 13, 2024 06:07
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madmatt112 posted:I made more last year than my dad, and I quote him, “never, ever came close to”. That was a weird feeling. I’m 33 :/ Are you factoring in inflation? I make more than my Dad did when he retired, but it's not even close when I factor in that he's been retired 11 years.
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May 13, 2024 13:38
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MrLogan posted:Are you factoring in inflation? This. Raw numbers are meaningless
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May 13, 2024 13:50
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my dad retired six months ago so even with bidenflation i think it's a fair comparison
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May 13, 2024 18:58
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Maybe this goes in the career path thread. This is just me typing out my thoughts, I might not even have an actual question when I'm done. I have a bullshit email job at a university hospital. My supervisor and I have been going back and forth about a raise/reclassification for the past few weeks. She and I had settled on about a 30% increase, going from $50k to $65k. (I live in a very low CoL area; the median household income is $54k). Everyone really likes me, I'm way overqualified for the job, and I think I'm the first person in a long time who can actually do the job correctly, so this is a big jump, but they're motivated to keep me. Today she talked to upper management and apparently the most they can offer is $58.5k. I don't think she's lying, and I don't think this is a bargaining tactic; I believe she's telling the truth when she says upper management has a cap here. This is obviously disappointing, but I don't think I have any actual leverage to negotiate with. - I'm starting my Master's literally next week via the same university, which means I get employee tuition assistance. This brings the cost of the degree down from about $20k to $4k all-in. So I think I'm essentially "stuck" here for the next two years, unless I want to add $8k/year to the cost of my degree. - The degree and all of my work experience are in academic healthcare, and this place is really the only game in town. - Taking the raise will put me in a quasi-managerial path, which will hopefully open doors to director-level positions here once I graduate. - I haven't actually lied but I've let everybody think I work a lot harder than I actually do. Part of this reclassification is about delegating some of my current duties and getting me some quality of life improvements like a private office or hybrid work schedule. What would you do in this situation? It's about half of what I was aiming for, but it's still an improvement over where I'm at right now. Also I've only been here for 9 months and this is a much larger raise than someone with that tenure would normally get. I'm always passively looking at new jobs and I guess I should switch to actively looking at other departments, but like I said, I feel tethered here for at least the next 24 months. Accept the offer and keep pushing for cost-of-living and merit raises until I graduate?
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May 14, 2024 01:06
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This feels like a win to me. You get a good bit more money, and have laid groundwork for an additional adjustment next review cycle, all with very little leverage (congrats on the tuition adjustment, that's a huge benefit).
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May 14, 2024 01:19
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Normally I’d say it’s time to start looking for a new job but in this case, yeah, take the win. It’s not what you wanted and inevitably you’ll leave, but in the interim it’s still a good deal given other factors.
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May 14, 2024 01:23
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I feel like the discount on your education should be taken into account, as well as how convenient it is to get to classes from work if you stay where you are. It sounds like you're doing really well out of this, so reconsider once that bit of paper is in your hands.
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May 14, 2024 01:29
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Hello. I've been unemployed nearly 6 months (terrible job market) but I've been interviewing for a new role and I think it's going very well. Fortunately there's been no discussion of salary (yet) and I know I should negotiate, but I've been without a job for so long and my savings can't last forever so I'm wary of sabotaging this (possible) opportunity. How should I approach the salary discussion when/if it happens? Also, forgive me if I missed this when I read the OP, when/if asked "what was your last salary?" is there a reason I shouldn't just lie and say a figure higher than what I was actually paid? That way if we do argue down to it, it is still an amount that counts as a raise?
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May 14, 2024 22:12
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nexus6 posted:Also, forgive me if I missed this when I read the OP, when/if asked "what was your last salary?" is there a reason I shouldn't just lie and say a figure higher than what I was actually paid? That way if we do argue down to it, it is still an amount that counts as a raise? They might already know.
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May 14, 2024 22:15
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nexus6 posted:Hello. I've been unemployed nearly 6 months (terrible job market) but I've been interviewing for a new role and I think it's going very well. Fortunately there's been no discussion of salary (yet) and I know I should negotiate, but I've been without a job for so long and my savings can't last forever so I'm wary of sabotaging this (possible) opportunity. How should I approach the salary discussion when/if it happens? "That's confidential / I'm more interested in discussing the needs of this role" The way you approach the salary discussion is by being informed. Imagine you had perfect knowledge of what the budget for the role was, what peers in the same title got paid, and the value of the project your team is responsible for. That would make you pretty confident in your ask right? We'll, you don't actually need to imagine cause you can get part of that info during your interviews. Heck you might even find all of it nicely shared on levels.fyi depending on the role and company.
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May 14, 2024 22:26
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When I negotiated a higher salary a few jobs ago based on my current salary, I was asked to provide proof in the form of a payslip or group certificate. I'd think carefully before lying about current salary.
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May 14, 2024 22:29
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Chewbecca posted:When I negotiated a higher salary a few jobs ago based on my current salary, I was asked to provide proof in the form of a payslip or group certificate. I'd think carefully before lying about current salary. You don’t have to provide that. It’s none of their drat business. Past compensation is irrelevant. You’re hiring for this role and the compensation that comes with it.
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May 14, 2024 22:37
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California recently banned asking for salary history information.
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May 14, 2024 23:12
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I live in God's own country, Australia. Not sure if it was legal or illegal at the time it was asked, but I got the salary I asked for at least
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May 14, 2024 23:23
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nexus6 posted:Hello. I've been unemployed nearly 6 months (terrible job market) but I've been interviewing for a new role and I think it's going very well. Fortunately there's been no discussion of salary (yet) and I know I should negotiate, but I've been without a job for so long and my savings can't last forever so I'm wary of sabotaging this (possible) opportunity. How should I approach the salary discussion when/if it happens? Never don’t negotiate. If a company rescinds their offer because you fought for a little more for yourself then bullet dodged. For me I had been unemployed almost a year and was desperate for a job. Was able to get an extra 18% more simply by saying, “I’d be happy to sign the offer today at salary $X”.
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May 14, 2024 23:39
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Blurb3947 posted:If a company rescinds their offer because you fought for a little more for yourself then bullet dodged. This needs to be a stickied post that hovers in the top right corner of the page anytime you’re in this thread. It’s practically an axiom at this point. You will never lose anything by respectfully negotiating in good faith, and if you “lose” the offer then you’ve actually gained a get out of jail free card instead.
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May 15, 2024 01:38
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The key point is in good faith. Like all things in life, don't be a clown. Countering with a market rate or an extra 10-15% won't get you rejected. When you need a job it isn't time to shoot for some ludicrous number.
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May 15, 2024 02:10
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The person who yanked my offer retired not much after and actually just passed away. I have to feel like she must’ve been really short on fucks. Totally no reason to’ve proceeded the way they did. If it weren’t good pay and totally remote, then I’d agree slightly more about dodging bullets etc. But I only debased myself slightly (and my BATNA was poo poo). So whatever, career path/strategy: tumbleweed.
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May 15, 2024 03:11
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Okay I’ll allow that my use of “never lose” was too black & white, but still. It’ll be true enough of the time that the Risk/Reward is usually a no-brainer. Usually.
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May 15, 2024 03:18
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