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dr.acula posted:Also undoing all the things people died in wars to accomplish sure is awesome Sorry, but they died in vain
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Jan 16, 2017 21:36
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T.S. Smelliot posted:So where are your shrill rants about how "the native locals" in [every sect of land ever inhabited by humans] have the REAL claim to [every sect of land ever inhabited by humans]? By this idiot logic I guess the Israelis really DO have a legitimate claim to the land then? fam where else are the native locals so brutally owned on though have you seen my rants in the oil pipeline thread recently they were pretty shrill also this is the ISRAEL THREAD gee I wonder why I'm talking specifically about ISRAEL also that's not my logic dog, my logic is 'lol Israel literally has laws on the books that treat Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs differently' which is the definition of apartheid and I dislike my tax money paying for it. T.S. Smelliot posted:Legitimate according to who and with what force to prove it? *signs treaty* LOL gently caress YOUR TREATY i mean sure but that makes you an rear end in a top hat lol and if you then get mad when people call you an rear end in a top hat then you're just digging your hole deeper Blue Train posted:I like the unironic might makes right arguments itt Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Jan 16, 2017 |
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Jan 16, 2017 21:40
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Moridin920 posted:fam where else are the native locals so brutally owned on though no man when you say something is apartheid you compare it to the situation of total racial segregation in South Africa. The only legal distinctions between israeli jews and arabs is that the arabs are exempt from military conscription (this is also true of christians and druze iirc). The israeli government badly underfunds arab institutions and the like but that's true of minority groups the world over. obviously not talking about the occupied territories here.
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Jan 16, 2017 21:52
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I like what Israel has done with the place, looks nice and green. Perhaps they should take up more land.
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Jan 16, 2017 21:57
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Saint Isaias Boner posted:no man when you say something is apartheid you compare it to the situation of total racial segregation in South Africa. The only legal distinctions between israeli jews and arabs is that the arabs are exempt from military conscription (this is also true of christians and druze iirc). The israeli government badly underfunds arab institutions and the like but that's true of minority groups the world over. If you're interested I can actually link you more than just that law which treats them differently. Saint Isaias Boner posted:no man when you say something is apartheid you compare it to the situation of total racial segregation in South Africa. Yeah and? You realize most Palestinians are living in walled in lovely conditions and have all their movements/actions subject to Israeli approval right? You realize when a Palestinian does something wrong the consequence is often his family's entire home is bulldozed and when an Israeli Jew does the same exact thing they are just arrested and treated as you'd expect? That the gov't in power has stated their goal is to replace Palestinian communities with Jewish communities? All land east of the Jordan is Israeli according to them. from UN definition of Apartheid posted:b. Deliberate imposition on a racial group or groups of living conditions calculated to cause its or their physical destruction in whole or in part; I bolded those because those are the particularly egregious violations You literally cannot leave occupied Palestinian territories without going through Israeli approval as Israel prevents them from having an international airport. Thus all movement happens through Israeli/Palestinian checkpoints and it is strictly controlled. e: I missed this: Saint Isaias Boner posted:obviously not talking about the occupied territories here. But uh that's kind of a massive omission no? And even so, Israeli citizens who are Arabic are punished differently than Israeli citizens who are Jewish for the same crimes/activities. It's not just the letter of the law, it is how it is applied and enforced - which is often unfortunately in a highly discriminatory way. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Jan 16, 2017 |
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Jan 16, 2017 22:06
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Moridin920 posted:If you're interested I can actually link you more than just that law which treats them differently. Maybe to time for the Palestinians to realize that terrorism will never achieve their goals and to try something else then.
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Jan 16, 2017 22:15
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hakimashou posted:Maybe to time for the Palestinians to realize that terrorism will never achieve their goals and to try something else then. Maybe but that's a different argument.
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Jan 16, 2017 22:16
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There are lots of serious differences between apartheid and what Israel does in Israel and the analogy is designed to get people lovely at Israel. If arabs experience legal discrimination within israel (I'm sure they probably do but I know gently caress all about life in Israel aside from the few things i've already said and I'm not going to wikipedia just for the sake of arguing) it's not on the same level as South Africa which was complete segregation down to maternity wards, train carriages, swimming holes and every other drat thing. Also apartheid is more than "powerful group is lovely to weaker group" - it's a political ideology based on racial supremacy that forcibly separates populations based on race, reinforced by the legal system and police violence . The reason that it's important that this situation doesn't exist within Israel itself is because it shows Israel's motivations aren't based on racial supremacy. Looking clearly at the situation it's obviously an old-fashioned land grab probably pursued for nationalist reasons. If they're setting up isolated Palestinian bantustans it's because it's easier than running them out of the country, not because they want to segregate them from Israeli society. On top of that they have no intention of exploiting Palestinians for any serious economic purpose, they just want them out of the way. Situation's all hosed up but accusing Israel of apartheid doesn't really stack up and it's mainly done for propaganda purposes to get activists more riled up than they should be. Hell I'm splitting hairs here but the thing is bad enough without needing to gin it up with words like apartheid or genocide E: if the situation was settled either by annexation or a two-state solution israel would not treat its arab population to the same treatment as it gives them in the occupied territories unless they get a real fucker into power (like worse than bibi somehow) anyway this has been my seriouspost for the day Saint Isaias Boner fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Jan 16, 2017 |
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Jan 16, 2017 22:36
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Saint Isaias Boner posted:There are lots of serious differences between apartheid and what Israel does in Israel and the analogy is designed to get people lovely at Israel. If arabs experience legal discrimination within israel (I'm sure they probably do but I know gently caress all about life in Israel aside from the few things i've already said and I'm not going to wikipedia just for the sake of arguing) it's not on the same level as South Africa which was complete segregation down to maternity wards, train carriages, swimming holes and every other drat thing. Also apartheid is more than "powerful group is lovely to weaker group" - it's a political ideology based on racial supremacy that forcibly separates populations based on race, reinforced by the legal system and police violence . The reason that it's important that this situation doesn't exist within Israel itself is because it shows Israel's motivations aren't based on racial supremacy. Looking clearly at the situation it's obviously an old-fashioned land grab probably pursued for nationalist reasons. If they're setting up isolated Palestinian bantustans it's because it's easier than running them out of the country, not because they want to segregate them from Israeli society. On top of that they have no intention of exploiting Palestinians for any serious economic purpose, they just want them out of the way. Why are you writing so many words about something you freely admit you know nothing about
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Jan 16, 2017 22:38
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butterbar posted:Why are you writing so many words about something you freely admit you know nothing about i don't know much about the exact laws relating to arabs in israel other than they're not extremely discriminatory, but I know enough about the rest. nice own though my man
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Jan 16, 2017 22:39
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I propose a one state solution, and that state is iran
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Jan 16, 2017 22:42
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Saint Isaias Boner posted:Hell I'm splitting hairs here but the thing is bad enough without needing to gin it up with words like apartheid or genocide Look fam just because it isn't as brutal as South Africa doesn't mean it doesn't fit the literal UN definition of what apartheid is and I feel like to say otherwise is trying to downplay it. You are splitting hairs. I mean I understand where you're coming from and you're right it isn't on the same level as South Africa but to say "South Africa level is the baseline, anything not at least as bad as this is not apartheid" is just kinda wrong. https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%201015/volume-1015-I-14861-English.pdf [I'ma bold what Israel does] International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid. Adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations on 30 November 1973 posted:
I mean that's almost every single checkmark hit aside from straight out murder or enslavement of Arabs and I can provide sources/citations for every single one of those bolded things. What's a better word if not apartheid then? Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Jan 16, 2017 |
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Jan 16, 2017 22:43
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a political ideology based on racial supremacy that forcibly separates populations based on race, reinforced by the legal system and police violence
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Jan 16, 2017 22:48
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Moridin920 posted:Look fam just because it isn't as brutal as South Africa doesn't mean it doesn't fit the literal UN definition of what apartheid is and I feel like to say otherwise is trying to downplay it. You are splitting hairs. I mean I understand where you're coming from and you're right it isn't on the same level as South Africa but to say "South Africa level is the baseline, anything not at least as bad as this is not apartheid" is just kinda wrong. yeah but it's not systematic. The problem is the occupation - outside of the occupation itself these conditions don't apply at all, and some of them only questionably. If it's not racially based (and it can't be because the government isn't applying these policies to the same races within Israel proper) then most of the racial requirements are met only coincidentally because Palestinians happen to be Arabs. Like they're not being targeted for being Arabs, they're targeted because they're on territory that Israel wants. Don't get me wrong though, it's hosed, very illegal and probably causes roughly as much suffering to the populations affected as Apartheid. Like I said the occupation needs to end either by withdrawal or annexation and formal recognition of palestinian rights within Israel.
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Jan 16, 2017 22:50
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Saint Isaias Boner posted:yeah but it's not systematic. The problem is the occupation - outside of the occupation itself these conditions don't apply at all, and some of them only questionably. If it's not racially based (and it can't be because the government isn't applying these policies to the same races within Israel proper) then most of the racial requirements are met only coincidentally because Palestinians happen to be Arabs. Like they're not being targeted for being Arabs, they're targeted because they're on territory that Israel wants. Mmmm alright that's some quibbling but alright I guess. It is pretty drat systematic though.
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Jan 16, 2017 22:52
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butterbar posted:a political ideology based on racial supremacy that forcibly separates populations based on race, reinforced by the legal system and police violence But, ww2 caused this, and it ended....ohhhhhhhhhh
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Jan 16, 2017 22:53
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Saint Isaias Boner posted:yeah but it's not systematic. The problem is the occupation - outside of the occupation itself these conditions don't apply at all, and some of them only questionably. If it's not racially based (and it can't be because the government isn't applying these policies to the same races within Israel proper) then most of the racial requirements are met only coincidentally because Palestinians happen to be Arabs. Like they're not being targeted for being Arabs, they're targeted because they're on territory that Israel wants. Arabs get treated like poo poo in Israel proper too
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Jan 16, 2017 22:53
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Moridin920 posted:Mmmm alright that's some quibbling but alright I guess. It is pretty drat systematic though. ok i will stop quibbling. good hustle
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Jan 16, 2017 22:53
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butterbar posted:Arabs get treated like poo poo in Israel proper too yeah but are we talking on the regular level of poo poo that minorities face or something worse? Because the cops in the US and UK gently caress black and middle eastern people round the clock. E: like I said I don't know much about this so if you've got something I'd like to hear about it Saint Isaias Boner fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Jan 16, 2017 |
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Jan 16, 2017 22:55
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"You aren't Jewish, get off this land or we'll kill you" whats is ambiguous about that?
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Jan 16, 2017 23:13
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Saint Isaias Boner posted:yeah but are we talking on the regular level of poo poo that minorities face or something worse? Because the cops in the US and UK gently caress black and middle eastern people round the clock. Please don't normalize the oppression of minorities.
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Jan 16, 2017 23:18
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Saint Isaias Boner posted:yeah but are we talking on the regular level of poo poo that minorities face or something worse? Because the cops in the US and UK gently caress black and middle eastern people round the clock. ~according to people I've spoken to (some of who are Israeli Jews who dislike Netanyahu's deal)~ it's like... protest a little too hard against Gaza stuff on the corner if you're a white jewish person and you'll get arrested and put in holding and whatnot but you'll eventually go home with maybe a fine and whatever. An arab in the same exact situation gets put on a list which then greatly impacts their life in terms of ability to do various things like travel the checkpoints freely or buy land or whatnot and also there's a decent chance your entire residence will get bulldozed even if there are 9 other people living there (odds vary depending on if you're living in an area they want to remove non-Jews from). e: Also there's a big deal made about the fact that many Palestinian homes outside the cities (like in the villages and stuff) are built without a permit, thus the gov't is justified in razing them. However, the gov't also makes it absurdly difficult to get said permits if you are Arab so your choice is build a home without a permit or leave. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Jan 16, 2017 |
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Jan 16, 2017 23:21
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im glad to find out its ok to do ethnic cleansing as long as its not for explicitly racial reasons
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Jan 16, 2017 23:23
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Bloodyshinta1 posted:"You aren't Jewish, get off this land or we'll kill you" whats is ambiguous about that? within israel, gee SHISHKABOB posted:Please don't normalize the oppression of minorities. i know what each of these words mean individually but not in this sequence
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Jan 16, 2017 23:24
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i feel like i should point out that you are arguing in gbs with guy with a piss avatar before we go much further
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Jan 16, 2017 23:24
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I'm in the same boat as you, I don't really know what the gently caress is going on over there... but when i boil it down it get that conclusion....
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Jan 16, 2017 23:27
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SHISHKABOB posted:honest question but didnt the moors do the same thing originally? They weren't indigenous to iberia Yes, they did, just like the current Muslim nations displaced the original Jews. Did you know that the Jews build Jerusalem, and that the Palestinians really have no right to it?
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Jan 17, 2017 00:09
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Once upon a time we had no laws and everyone just murdered each other as they saw fit; therefore, society and the rule of law are useless today in 2017.
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Jan 17, 2017 00:11
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If only the Muslim countries followed international laws, instead of being totalitarian hellholes that sponsor terrorism
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Jan 17, 2017 00:14
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If only Israel followed international laws, they wouldn't be administrating the occupation of hellholes that radicalize people.
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Jan 17, 2017 00:24
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Moridin920 posted:Once upon a time we had no laws and everyone just murdered each other as they saw fit; therefore, society and the rule of law are useless today in 2017. You should write a sternly worded letter about it bro family homie dude mang
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Jan 17, 2017 01:01
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your friend a dog posted:If only the Muslim countries followed international laws, instead of being totalitarian hellholes that sponsor terrorism Moridin920 posted:If only Israel followed international laws, they wouldn't be administrating the occupation of hellholes that radicalize people. Hmm, as a Hillary supporter, all I can say is oh boy let's give both of these guys tons of money and weapons this poo poo will work out real well
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Jan 17, 2017 01:13
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Quick Draw McGraw posted:Hmm, as a Hillary supporter, all I can say is oh boy let's give both of these guys tons of money and weapons this poo poo will work out real well You know what as a Trump supporter I'm crossing the aisle to say in the spirit of bipartisanship and cooperation I agree with this man
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Jan 17, 2017 01:19
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i'm having trouble working out who's in each aisle, please stop crossing it
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Jan 17, 2017 01:24
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Saint Isaias Boner posted:i'm having trouble working out who's in each aisle, please stop crossing it Both aisles have a single owner: the
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Jan 17, 2017 01:26
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israel is the best
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Jan 17, 2017 01:27
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I believe Israel has a right not only to exist but to exist specifically as a Jewish ethnostate. Ethnostates are under attack by the forces of neoliberalism and multiculturalism, but Israel must stand firm in its struggle, once again to serve as an example for other nations
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Jan 17, 2017 01:30
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Quick Draw McGraw posted:I believe Israel has a right not only to exist but to exist specifically as a Jewish ethnostate. Ethnostates are under attack by the forces of neoliberalism and multiculturalism, but Israel must stand firm in its struggle, once again to serve as an example for other nations ethnostates are coming back into fashion bigly this year so once again Israel is on the right side of history
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Jan 17, 2017 01:31
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this thread is getting really bad really quickly
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Jan 17, 2017 01:32
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it has its ups and down
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Jan 17, 2017 01:44
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