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 Neon Genesis Evangelion is a 1995-6 Gainax anime, masterminded by Hideaki Anno, about teenagers piloting giant robots called Evangelions. It begins after a disaster called Second Impact, in the specially built city of Tokyo-3, where a secret organisation called NERV is based. A huge monster, codenamed an Angel, attacks, sweeping aside entire armies which fail even to scratch it; only NERV and their Evangelions can defeat the Angel. A schoolboy named Shinji Ikari unwillingly becomes caught up in the struggle, and he is coerced into becoming a pilot – but this Angel is merely the first of many... If that was where Eva finished, it might be forgotten. Everyone's seen brave mecha pilots fighting Godzilla-esque monsters, awesome action scenes with triumphant endings, spiced with humour and romance. But Shinji's no hot-blooded hero; he's depressive, unmotivated, and frequently terrified by his bizarre adversaries. The rest of the cast are caught up in quasi-religious fanaticism, hopeless love, hatred, intrigue, and inner emptiness. As the series goes on, the action and comedy aspects become less important, the Angels become stranger and stronger, the brutal battles won at much greater cost, NERV's secrets are slowly revealed, and Gainax visibly runs out of money. The characters' inner struggles become more prominent as a quasi-apocalyptic conspiracy that means the last two episodes consist of three main characters undergoing on-screen therapy. Eva is often seen as Anno's semi-autobiographical account of his struggles with, and triumph over, depression. It draws on classic giant robot shows, Freudian psychoanalysis, and New Wave film alike; and progresses from quasi-realistic action and science to mysticism (crucifixes and Jewish symoblism everywhere!) and meditation on human being. It's a work of love of anime and hatred of its fans, reusing and parodying freely, navel-gazing and fan-pandering, and an expression of immature angst and shining hope. Love it or hate it - I'm in the former camp, though it's deeply flawed - Eva is one of the most famous and divisive series ever. Characters Shinji Ikari  The protagonist and pilot of Evangelion Unit 01. As I said above, he's often (understandably) miserable and weak, but gets stronger and happier throughout the series, and proves kind and even heroic, when needed. Both he and his dub voice are extremely polarising. Rei Ayanami  Pilot of Evangelion Unit 00, first seen badly wounded in a training accident. She seems to have no emotions or even attachment to life or other people, except for suicidal loyalty to NERV's head, Gendo Ikari. She is deeply involved in NERV's secret purposes. Asuka Langley Sohryu  The third main pilot, a very arrogant, self-centred, and hot-blooded teenager who derives much of her self-worth from her skill at defeating Angels, and treats most other people like dirt. Her Evangelion is Unit 02.  The Evangelions. Left to right: Unit 02, Unit 01, and Unit 00. Misato Katsuragi  Commander of the Evangelions, Shinji and Asuka's guardian, and Shinji's irresponsible surrogate mother. She switches between boozy irresponsibility and hard-nosed professionalism, and is romantically involved with Ryoji Kaji, a spy investigating NERV; also promises fanservice in previews. Gendo Ikari  Commander of NERV, major player in the war against the Angels, and Shinji's distant and abusive father. He seems initially to be very clinical and unemotional. He treats Rei as a favourite pet and spends 90% of his time in this pose. The main cast together  The End of Evangelion Eva had a legendarily abrupt and peculiar ending - the main plot is completely unresolved, and the last two episodes are mostly title cards and cels reused from earlier episode. Fortunately, it got a proper ending in the form of two films. The first, Death and Rebirth summarised the series and previewed the second film, The End of Evangelion. This detailed the final defeat of NERV and provided a slightly more grounded version of the ending, albeit still riddled with confusing and bizarre details, and not wholly meshing with the series's ending. It's essential if you enjoyed the series, though the DVD is old and low-quality. Death and Rebirth is fans-only; Death is a sometimes interesting recap, but Rebirth is literally the first half hour of Eoe. Rebuild of Evangelion Ah, but two endings isn't enough for a franchise as confusing as Eva. In 2007, Anno decided to “rebuild” the series into four films, collectively entitled Rebuild of Evangelion, telling a streamlined version of the story with better production values and some plot changes, especially in the third film. Three films have been licenced in English so far; the fourth is supposed to supply an entirely new climax to the series. Their titles aren't as confusing as they seem: Rebuild 1.0 is the theatrical version of the first film and 1.11 is the DVD version, and so on.  Left: Eva TV, episode one; right, Rebuild of Evangelion 1. Shamelessly stolen from the old Eva OP. Evangelion is a story that repeats Even three versions isn't enough for Eva, though! There's also a manga, which began before the anime and is still unfinished, various other spinoffs which generally take a lighter and happier approach to the situation, and a ton of merchandise. This series must be one of the greatest cash cows in anime history; I'm fond of the Misato soapdish, personally. There were also rumblings of a live-action version, but that seems to be in development hell where it belongs; watch Pacific Rim instead. So what order should I watch it in? Well, goons are a bit divided on that. Some recommend watching the TV series first, The End of Evangelion, and then Rebuild. Others say the cheap 90s animation was too offputting, and watched Rebuild 1 and perhaps 2 before going back to the series and EoE. The difference is that Rebuild technically stands alone but gains from being seen after the original incarnations, but is better animated. Then come the other parts of the franchise, if you're interested: the manga is similar to the TV series, which Death summarises and retells, and the spinoff manga/gag films assume you're familiar with it but go in different directions. Links Obligatory Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_Genesis_Evangelion Evageeks wiki (spergy, but some useful stuff): http://wiki.evageeks.org/ Evageeks page on the First Ancestral Race, describing some of the background information that wasn't in the series but helps clarify some things: http://wiki.evageeks.org/First_Ancestral_Race A huge and poorly-organised collection of sources discussing Eva, from pre-production to Rebuild: http://www.gwern.net/otaku (Thanks to ShardPhoenix for finding it!) Rebuild of Evangelion site (in Japanese): http://www.evangelion.co.jp/ Spoilers Below posts on UFO, a SuperMarionation series that influenced Anno. Bisse goes into Eva blind. First post. Rebuild 3.33 discussion begins on page 5. Safety Biscuits fucked around with this message at 06:00 on May 16, 2014 |
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Mar 30, 2013 12:29
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Terminal Entropy posted:I know that Gainax had to toss out a lot of finished story since they wrote a sub plot that ended up predicting the Tokyo subway sarin gas attacks but did they ever mention what it had to do with the plot? I remember a background news segment on the mentioning a terrorist attack which I assume is a nod to it. Here's an extract from an interview with a Japanese critic which mentions Aum. He talks like he knows his stuff, but I don't know why; a bit of googling implies that he wasn't part of Gainax, but he might be friends with Anno. Anyway: quote:Krystian Woznicki: So Anno changed the original plot of the story when he saw the news about the invasion of Aum's hide out by the police. Did he change it because it was too close to reality? Whole thing here: http://www.nettime.org/Lists-Archives/nettime-l-9802/msg00101.html So the relevant points seem to be that it wasn't the subway attacks, but the government investigating Aum's base. So going by this the cancelled plot seems as if it would have been similar to the beginning of EoE, perhaps with SEELE being attacked instead of NERV; the quote seems to be aligning NERV/SEELE with Aum. Maybe Anno felt enough time had passed by then to make it suitable again. On the other hand, a shapechanging Angel LCL-ifying people in a railway station is a pretty plausible scenario too. Scyantific posted:You know, that's actually quite an appropriate thread tag. I nearly went for GOON MEET before deciding it wasn't that funny, and going for the obvious choice.
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Mar 30, 2013 19:38
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Thanks, I've added it now. If he'd been doing the Gendo pose, I would have used this in the OP.
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Apr 3, 2013 10:17
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Sweding is always hilarious. The ending was particularly good. And for anyone who hasn;t seen it, here's ReDeath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPtFxvtfH9I
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Apr 5, 2013 12:47
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Yeah, and he gets more likeable for most of the series as he gets more confident and more like himself. He turns Misato's flat into somewhere liveable, he manages to befriend Rei, for God's sake, stands up against Gendo - twice - for treating him as a weapon, and he's incredibly kind and caring - for instance saving Touji and Kensuke in episode 3 or diving into a volcano after Asuka. Oh, and he saves the world a dozen times or so. Even when he's not likeable per se he's very sympathetic... well, except for one scene in EoE. Even his apathy then is believable when you bear in mind that he has, in his mind, become everything he hates most. It's his depth of character that both makes him so likeable and makes his realisation that it's possible to like himself believeable  Edit: Just to add to what you guys were saying while I posted, quote:It's not until much later that Shinji's beaten down to a more selfish and anxiety-driven position. And look at what the poor kid endures before he reaches that point! Safety Biscuits fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Apr 12, 2013 |
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Apr 12, 2013 23:35
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Regalingualius posted:Ehhh... Honestly, it seemed to me like the main intent wasn't to make the audience sympathize with Shinji for the first two-thirds or so of EoE True, but considering what's happened to him and what he's done, I can't hate the poor kid. I think he's more sympathetic on a re-watch, too, when you have the extra perspective on him. Tae posted:So am I the only one that thought EoE isn't a troll and just Anno wanting Evangelion's true 25/26? I guess it's because I went straight from 24 to EoE, and I was a heck lot more forgivable on why Shinji was hosed up and apathetic considering he just crushed literally the only other person that loved him personally probably a few days ago. It is; there are storyboard-ish shots of EoE scenes in episode 25 and, I think, in the next episode previews. You can see them here: http://wiki.evageeks.org/EoTV_vs_EoE#Reality_Scenes Even if much of EoE was planned, there are still some responses to fans' responses to the series, such as the "hate mail" (which apparently mostly wasn't: http://wiki.evageeks.org/End_of_Evangelion_Death_Threats if you really must) and some changes of emphasis between the two, for instance EoE's emphasis on Shinji's pivotal role in deciding whether or not to end Instrumentality. It's a real shame there's nothing covering the gap between episode 24 and the films; it would really help explain him and it's ripe with drama.
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Apr 13, 2013 11:02
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I really don't understand how that theory makes any sense at all, considering how the hell you'd have to get from the ending of EoE to the beginning of Rebuild without time travel or something. Then again, I've never been that interested in Rebuild.ShardPhoenix posted:Here's an interesting collection of translated interviews and so forth regarding Eva. Helps explain what's going on with the original ending vs. EoE, to what extent it was intended as a criticism of the audience, etc. Jesus some of this stuff. "What was the difference between the Gurren Lagann TV and films?" "In the films, Yoko has bigger tits." This must be a fantastic resource for people who can be bothered to navigate it; looks like everything in English he could find that even mentioned Eva. I'll add it to the OP. Thanks.
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Apr 18, 2013 00:31
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Really? I don't know what you're talking about.quote:Rebuild as a sequel So it's more of a general feeling, then? Fair enough. No, it's not impossible, but it seems to miss the entire point of Rebuild. Anno's said that he wants it to be more accessible for people who haven't seen the original - how will it do that if it's a sequel? And why would you spend one of the four films doing almost exactly the same thing as the TV series? Why wouldn't you tell anyone? It really seems like a huge dick move, really dwarfing the other stuff he's done to upset people. Some of that evidence has simpler answers anyway; maybe Kaworu met Shinji when he was still a baby. Sorry for not replying earlier, I thought I dodn't have anything to say before I started typing. 
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Apr 20, 2013 21:40
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Dr_Amazing posted:I watched the show and one of the movies. I didn't get it at all. Is there a good source that explains what was going on at the end? The End of Evangelion isn't a sequel to episode 26 of the TV series; it's a sequel to episode 24. Episodes 25 and 26 show Instrumentality (Shinji deciding whether to be human or the hive-mind), which also occurs in the film, but Gainax couldn't show the external things happening due to lack of money. The soldiers don't invade after "Congratulations!" Tuxedo Catfish posted:Sucker Punch is a lot more explicitly meta-textual than Evangelion is. It's a story about a story about exploitation, and how fictional worlds exert influence on both other fictional worlds and on reality. Accordingly, a meta-textual reading has a lot more explanatory power re: Sucker Punch, compared to Evangelion where it tells you basically fuckall. Which is why I roll my eyes a little every time someone mentions that theory even if I don't strictly disagree. Eva has quite a few metatextual indicators though: Kensuke the otaku, Shinji watching cheesy disaster films, the flashback episode, the live-action/cartoony bits in Instrumentality, and allusions to other anime (and art): kaiju, giant robots, and school anime, etc. So it does have some uses, even if its points are generally personal rather than political.
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Apr 21, 2013 21:42
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Abalieno posted:I'm trying to figure out if the subs I have to the main series are from Platinum or Renewal, could anyone point a difference between the two so I can compare? As far as the subs go, they're the same thing, Renewal is the Japanese name. The only major difference iirc is that Renewal's version of EoE contains a live-action sequence that isn't in the English version. Tuxedo Catfish posted:I said something like this in the old thread: the remarkable thing about the scene where Shinji strangles Asuka isn't that he tries to kill her. ... But no -- the remarkable thing is that he stops. He killed the Angels, he killed Kaworu, Unit-01 kills (giant naked) Rei and it's not really clear if that's under Shinji or Yui's agency, and he initiated Instrumentality by wishing for his own / everyone's death. But he backs down from killing Asuka. He tries to break her neck in the mini-Instrumentality when the female characters are talking to him, but does he "succeed"? I can't remember but it's a great parallel if he did. I thought those videos were pretty insightful about that scene.
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Apr 25, 2013 08:09
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That had better not be the final box art, where's Ein?Nate RFB posted:This was a deleted scene that was an extra on the Renewal disc, not something that was added into the film itself. Oh, my mistake. Death is the only recap I've ever seen that wasn't just cut cut cut, I was surprised by how interesting it was. We were supposed to have new versions of the films a few years ago, but nope. Abalieno posted:Yes, but are they different from previous versions? The ones I have have that same line. Yes. Edged Hymn posted:After watching EoE, I disagree with puppet guy's assessment that the ending of the movie is supposed to be a condemnation of Shinji as a total failure of a human being. Shinji goes from catatonic depression to turning down paradise, and that's a hell of a step in the right direction. The puppet's argument was that Shinji turned down Instrumentality for the wrong reasons, which I hadn't thought of before. Interesting idea but I want to rewatch EoE before deciding, and anyway, wouldn't a better Bad End be accepting Instrumentality? Also a better example of giving the fans what they want and then showing them why it's so awful, which he already did with in episode 26 anyway. quote:I think what people don't understand is that his rejection of Instrumentality doesn't mean his depression vanished instantly and he was chipper for all time, but that from then on he would make an honest-to-god commitment to being happier. My biggest beef with the ending, though I've never seen any piece of art treat this realisation properly. Abalieno posted:Kabbala Interesting coincidences but t doesn't tell us anything and there's no evidence of intent. For one thing Kabbalah is a lot more complex than the uses he does make of Western traditions which are simple and obvious, just crosses, secret Dead Sea scrolls, and Angel names I think. (E: Well, some other stuff, but that doesn't change my point.) Can you give a Kabbalistic source for AT field though? Safety Biscuits fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Apr 26, 2013 |
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Apr 26, 2013 14:54
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Abalieno posted:I don't know. I can pile A LOT of evidence. For example Adam, as the idea of a body generating all other humanity (like the Adam on the cross in Nerv's basement) is exactly the Kabbalistic Adam Kadmon shown literally. See how down the trunk there are legs as if human shapes come right out of Admam's body? That's Lilith. Adam is the mother (this is the word used) of the Angels - the giant monster in Antartica and later embroyothing in Gendo's hand. As Lilith regenerates her legs properly after Rei takes the Lance of Longinus out of her, I think that's her trying to regenerate and being blocked by the Lance. quote:In Kabbalah Adam is not the "first man", but the spiritual body that was shattered in pieces to create all humanity as separate beings. The unity of all human beings IS Adam Kadmon. And that's the idea you have represented in Eva, or at least the one suggested by that image. I think it fits with Adam's part in Third Impact, too. quote:I don't have anything direct. I just know they have this ideas of "egoism" that keeps people as individual beings. OK. I was curious about the specific phrase because I've heard people say this about psychology, too. quote:By the way, the Dead Sea Scrolls in Eva mythology (which represent the totality of Torah, in our reality) are considered as a kind of tech manual to jumpstart Instrumentality. This is in Kabbalah myth too. I'm not denying there are references to Judaism. ut I don't think they're very meaningful references. Anno makes tons of references - there are all the characters with ship names, and biological ideas such as Central Dogma - but they're not all keys to the series' meaning. Most of the Jewish references are labels for simple concepts, like I said, they're not deep influences that seem to have determined anything about the series. Take "Instrumentality" for instance; it's pinched from Cordwainer Smith's short stories, where the Instrumentality of Mankind is a organisation trying to guide humanity in the right direction (and Smith took it from Catholicism; I think a priest performing a sacrament is God's "instrumentality"). That's pretty different to its use in Eva, though you can see the connection. Then there's the issue of how religions in general are used in the series. Generally the references are shallow, but in general they serve two purposes. Firstly, signifying Eva's switch in interest from the external to the internal; and secondly rather deep suspicion of religion at all. The nearest thing to religious characters are SEELE, and they're satirised and shown as deluded fools, even less capable of living properly than Shinji, willing to kill and destroy anyone and anything to get their way. If you look back at the first page of the thread there's some Aum chat; I think they're a much deeper influence than anything Western. And the other appropriations are fairly disrespectful, too - the Angels are monsters, the Lance of Longinus is just a label, I think even "god" gets used to describe Unit 01. Also, take a look at the OP and the big page of interviews. Ctrl+f for Kabbalah, qabalah, cabala... no results. Authorial intent isn't worth much to me, but the correspondences with Judiasm are weak to me, in the sense that they're vague and don't tell me anything. What do they tell you that you can't see elsewhere in the series/films? Are you saying there that Eva's a spiritual instrustion manual? If so, what does it say?
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Apr 26, 2013 23:59
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Only seen it once so I don't want to get too dogmatic about opinions, but everything to do with WILLE was an idiot plot, wasn't it? On the other hand the Curse is great. I thought the most interesting aspect was how it made me rethink the original episode 24. Kaworu's "unconditional love" was just a facade to allow him to get to "Adam". And yet Shinji still goes into terrible grief and despair. Nate RFB posted:Also the UTW 1080p encode was either helluva awful or my computer was throwing a fit; saw a ton of artifacts all over the place. Mine too, but my computer's fairly bad anyway. I had to download the 480p. Two Worlds posted:edit: from a different sub-forum Couldn't you have linked to that? It's the anime thread in EW: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3517607&highlight= Edit: Thanks for reposting it though. Safety Biscuits fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Apr 28, 2013 |
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Apr 28, 2013 12:43
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Feranon posted:I recall an interview after 2.0 came out where Anno said that his purpose for Rebuild was to "destroy Eva" and everything about 3.0 makes a lot more sense with that in mind. He seems to be criticizing himself and his previous work just as much as he is the otaku now. Well he's always been an otaku, that's Gainax for you. And in a sense it takes an otaku to become an anime director; anime is what anime is made of, only slightly more literally for Eva. The  talk was interesting - Eva's always been suspicious of technology, even air-conditioning, as people hide behind it and use it without thinking about whether they should or whether they want to be the kind of person who does thing like that.
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Apr 28, 2013 21:50
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ImpAtom posted:Huh, good to know. So yeah, it ain't Gendo. It's the Dummy Plug (or maybe the Evangelion itself?) The quote can only be from an artifical being for the quote to make sense though considering its source. It's probably the Dummy Plug; it's not Shinji or anyone at NERV, so it's either the Plug or Unit 01 herself, and she's brutal but not as bestial as she is when she berserks. This also makes Rei more like Gendo's puppet. Regarding the photo: I don't think it can be Mari. She would have had to be piloting Unit 00 before Yui's contact experiment, which I think was the first successful one. Even if it wasn't Unit 00 is only a little older than Unit 01. And Angels: The 13th Angel may be dead, but Sachiel was the 4th in Rebuild, not the 3rd after Adam and Lilith. So there still could be an Angel in 4, possibly Lilin again or responsible for those bloodstains on the Moon.
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Apr 29, 2013 08:36
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cafel posted:We see the new 3rd Angel in the fight that introduces Mari in 2.0. It was a skeletal dragon-like Angel she fought in a tunnel system in the testbed EVA that was equpide with a giant drill. The one that seems to be missing is the 11th Angel. If they all appeared in order then the 11th showed up while Shinji was trapped in the events surrounding Third Impact. Thanks. 11th Angel is those artificial Angels, maybe? cafel posted:But this failure is all according to SEELE and Gendo's plans, as is the failure of Fourth Impact. So if the results of Third Impact weren't Instumentality, then what could it actually be and why are aborted Third and Fourth Impacts necessary? Why is SEELE so accepting of Gendo's alternate plan and is that plan still some form of resurrection of Yui or is it something different this time around? Linking this and you earlier post on why everyone hates Shinji, maybe failed Third/Fourth Impacts are necessary for proper Instrumentality? Or maybe WILLE just don't know or care what happened and assume Shinji's responsible? SEELE might not be really bothered as long as they get tanged - in EoE their last words were more like "At last!" than "gently caress you, Gendo!". I doubt we'll ever get a "proper" answer about Instrumentality though. It's not really his style is it?
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Apr 29, 2013 12:39
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Khanstant posted:Is he wrong or why does he think he is wrong? Every fantasy I have of the human race eventually leads to merging into one conciousness. I just can't think of any good reasons to reject such a beautiful notion. This is a serious question; I hope it doesn't seem rude. How much of Eva have you seen? Just the Rebuild films, or the original series and films too? This is a pretty major theme and there are spoilers for all the original incarnation here. Tuxedo Catfish posted:It necessarily means extinguishing all individuality, which in the context of Evangelion is terrifying for almost everyone who faces it. For the few who embrace it it's promise of being re-united with loved ones, realizing their secret desires, or escaping from pain -- but the actual Instrumentality sequence(s) make it clear that it doesn't deliver on any of those, it just erases their context in the same way death would. You have a field of infinite potential, but the only way to actually realize any of that potential is to establish limitations and boundaries and work within them. It also flat out lies, like Maya thinking Ritsuko needed her  quote:I'm pretty sure that's exactly what EoE presents as an option. It's just that there's no distinction between "a hivemind where there is no separation between individuals and "a new entity, etc." Humanity post-"successful" Instrumenality: a sea of LCL, contemplating its bellybutton. Forever.
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Apr 29, 2013 21:34
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Khanstant posted:I saw the original series like 10 years ago, and I think both movies. I saw one of the rebuilds like a year ago or something. I know it is a major theme but I don't recall too much explanation going on for lots of things. Also, I saw it a decade ago. Still, I'm pro-LCL now, and I'll be pro-LCL tomorrow. I'm glad you took this one on the chin. Something I didn't see mentioned was that EoE's Instrumentality (we haven't had a proper explanation of Rebuild's yet) isn't the result of thinking, yes, it's humanity's next evolutionary step, or whatever. It is in a sense, although it's a sterile one - what's a great ocean of Tang ever going to do? But the reasons Shinji might decide to go with Instrumentality aren't positive. They're fear of other people, inability to socialise, and inability to cope with the pain of living with other people - it's pure escapism. But the worst reason is that Instrumentality means destroying yourself; you have to regard your whole life and everyone you know as meaningless. Shinji's last words in the series, when he rejects Instrumentality, are "I think I can learn to love myself." Instrumentality is a total inability to love yourself. abraxas posted:What's up with that huge rear end tower and the vertical tunnel connecting directly down to almost-Lilith and all the skulls and stuff? And why was the tunnel ALSO made out of weirdly semi-gooeyfied EVAs? I think we saw this shaft down to Terminal Dogma in the series once or twice. You've got to get down there somehow. quote:If I understood all this right at the end of the movie, it ALL perfectly worked how Gendo had it planned from the beginning? He planned the Third Impact and the spearing of 01 by Kaworu and then 14 years of Shinji sleeping and Misato defecting and creating WILLE and then a huge eyeless Rei head exploding blood all over him and THEN Fourth Impact not happening despite almost happening kind of like the Third one. Well, there seem to be quite a few acceptable outcomes, so it could be more a case of him realising he still has a good chance of getting what he wants. quote:What are the Gates of Guf and what did we see through them? I felt like it was really deliberately framed when they closed at the end because they lingered on them being open for so long and then bwoop they closed. All I saw was a lot of black and a white glowy thing in the middle, but then again this might be some spiritual reference again that I have no idea about. The Chamber and Doors of Guf are mentioned in the original series and EoE; the "storehouse" for souls waiting to be born. The Doors opened at the beginning of EoE-Instrumentality. The name is borrowed from Jewish mysticism. http://wiki.evageeks.org/Guf
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Apr 30, 2013 22:31
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Abalieno, I think you're grossly misinterpreting the ends of both the series and EoE itself and their relationship to each other. Do you remember that your first Kabbalahpost relied on misidentifying Lilith as Adam?
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May 1, 2013 09:13
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No you're not.
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May 2, 2013 17:46
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AmiYumi posted:A combination of a booklet sold in theatres when EoE came out (which has since been at least partially de-canonized) and "Classified Information" from a PS2/PSP video game. Well the Adam and Lilith stuff, at least, is fairly simple and makes the whole series rather less baffling, even if it isn't especially interesting.
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May 6, 2013 19:02
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The Riddle of Feel posted:The Adam and Lilith stuff totally undermines the presentation in the series, where it's all literally magic being manipulated (poorly) by science. Evangelion is partly a story about the arrogance of man trying to master forces beyond human understanding. I don't think so - there are lots of things which are introduced with a secular use which is later trumped by their true, symbolic function, eg the AT fields begin as a plot device and end up as Identity; you could do the same with the lol aliens if you introduced it early enough. Even reinforces this theme as the scientists think "oh, it's just an alien" - well, only literally.
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May 6, 2013 21:50
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heiden posted:Following up on that interview, do you guys consider the new Eva movies to have fanservice and cater to an older audience or not? Yes, there are still plugsuits, and wasn't there naked Mari in Rebuild 2? And yes, because though I can imagine teenagers liking Rebuild, there seems to be a lot in there that's not specifically aimed at them - mostly the metatextual aspects like the curse, things children can't be expected to know about. SHISHKABOB posted:The Angels just sort of showed up and started attacking, I don't think there was ever a chance to negotiate. I also feel like Gendo's plans and Seele's plans were probably mutually exclusive, considering how much they butted heads. (S) The Angels aren't really one faction but fifteen; they don't seem to communicate at all*. And they seem to vary in intelligence; though the first few aren't especially bright, one's a genius hacker and another enjoys Handel and is telepathic, but as the intelligent ones don't seem interested in talking, so an agreement isn't really negotiable. That (S) is meant to mean that I'm talking about the series, as opposed to (R)ebuild or (E)nd of Evangelion; it's getting a little confusing in here. *There's an idea that Matarael delivered Iruel to NERV.
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May 13, 2013 16:30
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Death is just re-edited footage from the series, except for the music scenes and intertitles, so if you haven't seen it then it'll be in the director's cut episodes.Autonomous Monster posted:Weeeeeeeeeeell, that's debateable. Kaworu explicitly surrenders to Shinji because he doesn't want to "win" at the cost of destroying humanity. And, of the others, it's possible that they wanted to communicate but just didn't know how. Leliel absorbed Unit 01, and it's mooted that Shinji's experiences inside it were an attempt to communicate. Bardiel fused with Unit 03 and then tried to do the same with Unit 00. Arael hits Asuka with some sort of telepathy; it causes her untold psychological damage, but we have no idea if that was the intent or just a side effect. Armisael also tried to fuse with 00, and actually held a conversation with Rei while it was doing so. Tabris/Kaworu is the only Angel shown to be capable of relating to humans in human terms, and he spends most of his episode telling Shinji how much he loves him. Not "talking" in the sense of "diplomacy", though; with those who do (or can) it's personal. I'm pretty sure Bardiel, given its total control over the Eva, its violence, and the sticky white stuff everywhere, is basically raping the Eva rather than communicating. And since seeing 3.33, I've had the idea that Kaworu might have been manipulating Shinji, rather than genuinely loving him and also planning to destroy him along with other Lilim.
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May 13, 2013 19:06
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ViggyNash posted:Manipulating him for what purpose? Talking about the series, not Rebuild. SHISHKABOB posted:Yeah I remember her appearing right before Misato explodes, and she's seen near Ritsuko's dead body floating in the LCL sea I think. I'm pretty sure that's meant to be her "welcome to Instrumentality" role - Misato was certainly Instrumentalitied, so it's not like being dead is an issue. SHISHKABOB posted:Did they somehow manage to stick the soul of Lilith inside her or something? In episode 24, she used an AT field as strong as Kaworu's, which is confirmation by Eva's standards. Maeanwhile, can you guess what this is?  Eva bowling pins? Pfft, don't be silly. They're Eva costumes to go bowling in, of course. 3.33 publicity, I think.
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May 13, 2013 20:45
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You should see their stub banner. "If I heat up my breasts, d'you think they'll get bigger or smaller?" I've never thought about Kaworu's clonefather before, but Dr Katsuragi's a nice interpretation.Tuxedo Catfish posted:I don't think Kaworu has ever been outright malevolent. More likely his motivations are just freaky and inhuman in ways that don't directly contradict the things he says, like being totally obedient to SEELE and offering Shinji unconditional love at the same time. He's incompatible, not evil. That would make him much more alien than Rei ever manages. She's pretty open about her motivations to Shinji - "I want to die", "I'll do anything Gendo tells me" - and her character development is more or less human.
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May 14, 2013 20:59
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The series was partly "improvised" - they didn't plan for the money running out or Aum Shinrikyo, for instance ( ) - but its basic Angel-of-the-week struture gives you a lot of freedom to improvise and have things still remaining more or less coherent. And I think Anno plays with that structure quite cleverly. On the other hand, it's easier to delay a film until it's just right.
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May 15, 2013 21:41
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That black thing Giant Rei's holding? The Geofront, of which NERV occupies a tiny part. (Edit: quote:I was skimming through EoE for the first time yesterday and something confusded me - when Shinji sorties in unit 1 immediately before seeing unit 2's corpse and freaking out, the Eva has already formed these huge wings of light and summoned a thunderstorm and poo poo. Wasn't this just after Lilith and Adam joined? So she'd have been reacting to the beginnings of Instrumentality. Also, abstract symbolism.) Tuxedo Catfish posted:The short version is that, up to 3.33 at least, it makes absolutely no difference. Basically this. Rebuild has scads of references to NGE/EoE, but whether or not they're clues that Rebuild's a sequel is mostly irrelevant; they're a drat sight more interesting as metatextual references to the original, adding layers of meaning that reward (but don't require) familiarity with the originals. Probably the only way Rebuild's actually more accessible to new Eva fans. I think the two main pieces of evidence for the sequel theory are the red oceans and the blood on the moon, but I think these are both, very solidly, references, not consequences of EoE. The bloodstains in EoE are a splash, not a line as you can see in 2.22, and Kaji blames the red oceans on Second Impact in 2.22. Maybe there's something in 1.11 but I haven't seen it. Safety Biscuits fucked around with this message at 20:00 on May 16, 2013 |
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May 16, 2013 19:58
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yellowjournalism posted:This sounds awesome, are there interviews of this I can read somewhere? (currently reading through http://www.gwern.net/otaku#conscience-of-the-otaking) There's a link to a huge collection of interviews in the OP. I think this is what Tuxedo Catfish was talking about : Wikipedia posted that Anno posted:"The development of Evangelion gives me the feeling of a ‘Live’ concert. Whether it was the story or character development, I made them without theory. During the development, while listening to various opinions, and analyzing my own state of mind, I kept questioning myself. I got the concepts from this personal stocktaking [self-assessment]. At first I thought I would produce a simple work featuring robots. yellowjournalism posted:I still don't loving know if that's Adam or Lilith at Terminal Dogma in 1.11/2.22, I THINK I remember you guys saying it was Adam a bunch of pages ago? In the series it's Lilith right? But the Angels think it's Adam? How the gently caress do you trick Angels? If they're naturally drawn to Adam, then how-- It's Lilith. yellowjournalism posted:I do think it would be cool to have some kind of outline in the OP of what's happening on a technical level. Maybe colorcoded to separate the easily confirmed stuff from the inferred stuff and the speculative? Maybe not even deal with heavily speculative stuff? It would just be good to have a nice, concise little explanation/reference thingy for us and newbs to refer to (every time I get back into Eva I feel like a newb again). That's not going in the OP. Partly because it doesn't fit its purpose, and partly because it gets too speculative and involved once we start getting into the details of how Instrumentality worked and I don't want to shut down discussion by presenting things as settled
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May 20, 2013 11:29
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I meant in the series, but as you're talking about Rebuild:Tuxedo Catfish posted:Well, somebody says it's Lilith. But they've lied about that before Who are you thinking of? Doesn't Misato tell Shinji it's Lilith in 1.11 too? I can't think of her lying about it in the other films, but I might have missed it.
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May 20, 2013 18:02
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Oh, sorry. Yeah all I meant was that the giant in the basement is misidentified as Adam in the series, and later revealed to be Lilith. I don't actually remember who initially claims it's Adam, but if it's Misato telling Shinji then presumably someone's lied to her. Godammit I come back thirty seconds later to edit in an apology for being vague and you've beaten me to it. Kaji is the one who tells Misato it's Adam at the end of episode 15; presumably Gendo lied to him about it. It would be a pretty funny parallel if she was wrong in Rebuild, too!
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May 20, 2013 18:11
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Didn't Kaji deliver the real Adam to Gendo before episode 15? Yeah, he brought it over in episode 8, on the UN fleet with Asuka and Unit 02. (Adam was what got replaced with the "Key of Nebudchanezzer" in Rebuild.) I like to imagine an off-camera conversation a few episodes later which went something along the lines of "So Kaji, want to see what I did with your little present... here you go!"
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May 20, 2013 19:07
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Gendo probably didn't want the Japanese govenment digging into AT fields and what-have-you, but given that Jet Alone was a nuclear reactor being put in the Angels' way, if it was ever used it would have irradiated the poo poo out of Tokyo-3 without achieving anything. I don't think even SEELE would really want that.
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May 22, 2013 10:00
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cafel posted:Even without getting into the more existential aspects I believe the message about the hollowness of epiphanies in the context of depression and self destructive behavior is very important. Unlike how the TV series and many other works present it, very often you are not in this continual blind state that is finally resolved by some profound personal conclusion. One of my major issues with Eva; EoE is barely more realistic than the series, which on the other hand was a pretty weak epiphany to begin with. "I think I can learn to love myself" isn't even the first step, it's more like realising that the path exists. Which is pretty profound at the time, but there's a long way from "Congratulations!" to mental health. Popcorn posted:But you could make a case for this, as Anno describes it, being a fantasy. This girl is tragically romantically alone and sad and weak. I will protect her. I will feed and clothe her. I will paw at her breasts as she lays numbly beneath me. You have to be pretty hosed up to fantasise this, though. Given how satirised and then subverted Rei's "submissive female" facade is already, how could he take it further?
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May 23, 2013 23:27
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Spiritus Nox posted:I don't disagree with the rest of your post, but I'm interested in hearing more about this. Hands in general are our main ways of interacting with the world (well, except people), so they represent the will or the soul's desires/actions. In Eva-specific stuff, I think there are a lot of shots of hands when people are tanged. Maya definitely does.
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May 24, 2013 12:22
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I don't think Pacific Rim's going to have much in common with Eva, but I'm still pretty hyped for it.I said come in! posted:I've never watched Evangelion before, but got really interested in it recently because people keep saying that Pacific Rim looks very similar, and that is a movie i'm pretty excited to see. I've watched the first two movies this week, and they were both pretty good. Good, I'm glad you enjoyed it, and it's really nice to have someone new to Eva because I put a lot of introductory stuff in the OP hoping someone would find it useful! The third film is fansubbed, by the way, if you want to watch it. Tuxedo Catfish posted:Please be sure to post reactions as you watch! Please do, it'd be fascinating to see what you think - just don't whitenoisepost, it's probateable. And this thread is full of spoilers for everything except Rebuild 3, so beware.
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May 25, 2013 19:31
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I almost never watch anime ever, so it was pretty different for me.
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I said come in! posted:Basically that's what I like to see in my movies, is that sort of deep conflict with characters, it makes for good drama, and Eva has some real intense action scenes because of this. I did however feel like the final battle in 2.22 was a total cop out, with Shinji's Eva all of a sudden resurrecting, and healing itself? But i'm trying not to be too critical of that moment because I assume it'll make sense later on, but for now it felt like a really weak plot device, in an otherwise good film. This is a victim of the streamlining - it made perfect sense in the original series but a lot of groundwork has been removed in Rebuild that causes it to come across this way. What did you think of Rei and Mari, by the way? The nest bit spoils the TV series: Giggily posted:Which seems to be negated in the Rebuilds. I remember in an episode of the original series they were making a big deal out of cross compatibility for pilots and Evangelions, and that only Rei and Kaworu were able to do it. But, in the Rebuilds, it seems like anybody can hop into any Evangelion and it just works. I wonder if this will ever be explained. Yes, this was the point of the dummy plugs. I don't remember seeing anything in Rebuild implying that the Evas were characters rather than, well, units, which I suppose mainly comes down to berserking and meeting Yui inside Leliel.
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May 25, 2013 23:39
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Go and post a Rebuild thread in CD, I dare you.I said come in! posted:Rei is a really awesome character, I like it when her and Shinji interact with each other, and I want to know more about her background. I don't know what to make of Mari to be honest. I shouldn't ask for spoilers, but is Asuka coming back? I'm pretty puzzled by Rei and Mari myself; I can't tell if either of them are as they appear. Glad you like Asuka though, as she isn't the easiest person in the world to like and yes, she's back in 3.33. Phobophilia posted:The obvious problem with the TV ending was that it left a ton of interesting plot threads dangling in the wind. Who are SEELE, and what's the true relationship between them and NERV? Gendo's agenda has to do with Yui being imprisoned within Unit 01, but how exactly, and why does he think it will bring her back to life? And is Shinji actually fixing himself, or is he deliberately throwing himself into a meaningless happy land where nothing bad happens and all the cast have been transported into the most generic romcom harem show ever? A lot of the Angelic/conspiratorial aspects have a deliberately staged feel. Just like Second Impact. The Angels almost all appear from nowhere at a dramatic junction; characters talk about "the script"; there's so much doubletalk, religious namedropping, and ambiguous scenes that it's impossible to take seriously towards the end. That stuff's kind of interesting, but it's not Eva, it's a generic thriller. Probably Kaji is the hero instead of Shinji. It has a function, and it's deliberately not solved. quote:You get the impression that the first half of EoE, or some pared down variant thereof, was always intended to be in the show (and it has some great action), but the decision to completely humiliate the main character came about later. It was! I'm not sure about Shinji finally breaking the sympathy barrier, but the general plot of EoE was determined before the series ended.
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May 26, 2013 21:35
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I started to really like her character a lot by the time her Eva is taken out.
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The other interpretation of Naoko's death is that Gendo manipulated Rei into pissing her off so she killed Rei and herself. But that's giving Gendo too much credit, as it were. I think you can see why I asked about Mari and Rei earlier. The one seems more or less pointless and the other's had her characterisation dicked about with to the point where I'm not sure what's going on; in Rebuild 2 she's an unrecognisably different person to the series. I get that 2 uses the original series as shorthand for its characterisation, but I'm still confused. Anyway, glad you enjoyed the series. Don't forget to check out EoE, by the way, it's a must-see that carries the story on, not a retelling.
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May 31, 2013 21:56
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| # ¿ May 10, 2024 14:14 |
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 I thought that scene in episode 26 was meant to be ironic?I finally watched Rebuild 1 last night. Given how different 2 and 3 were, it seemed to be an unjustified and sometimes inferior retread. Most of the time all that seemed worth watching was the differences to the original. The Ramiel part was the best and most different, especially the Lilith scene. I was surprised to see the toothpick holder scene (because it was in 2 too) and there definitely seemed to be an emphasis on dehumanising the Evas: Unit-01 didn't shelter Shinji from the falling debris, and someone mentioned that they don't have AT-fields without the pilot (implying they're soulless), and Leliel wasn't in 2. Although what that means for Yui is anybody's guess. During the scene where Shinji meets Unit-01 and Misato tells him he mustn't run away, the film and dialogue seemed to be moving far too quickly - people were just barking at each other without much empathy. I thought there was an error in the disc at first.
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Jun 2, 2013 11:59
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