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Posting because there's a dearth of discussion regarding the actual bell-to-bell part of wrestling in this forum and I think dissecting what makes matches work or not work for you can be really interesting. Post matches, post your thoughts about them, something beyond 'I liked it/didn't like it' or 'these spots were cool'. Tell other people why their opinions are stupid and bad. Matches can be as obscure or as mainstream as you like so long as you have something to say about them. I'll post a few to get things started. Kurt Angle vs. John Cena, WWE No Mercy 2003 - 10/19/2003 I wanted to look at a Cena match and an Angle match and then I saw this on Cagematch so that works out great. Cole and Tazz are trying to sell this as being The Wrestler vs. The Street Brawler, but it doesn't really work since Angle always wrestled a more brawling style outside of select spots. To make things worse, Cena's heat section begins with him using a bunch of wrestling holds on Angle. The hot crowd helped this a lot but I'm not sure the match itself is so great; there's a ton of completely weightless punching as was the WWE Main Event Style back then, and I don't think Cena ever really got effective heat on Angle - I would've liked to see him cheat more and earlier and maintain control for longer. The finisher kickouts felt really excessive given they only went 18 minutes and it's an undercard match on a B PPV. That said, since the pace was fast this was very watchable, I'm just not sure it deserves ****1/4 it received from Meltz. El Hijo del Santo, Atsushi Onita & Tarzan Goto vs. Negro Casas, Horace Boulder & Tim Patterson - 2/3 falls - FMW in Los Angeles - 05/16/1992 I had to watch this just because it sounded so bizarre on paper. I can't say I'm super familiar with any of these guys but I never would've believed two icons of lucha libre shared a ring with guys best known for barbed wire exploding ring death matches (plus the future Horace Hogan) if there hadn't been video evidence. While this was obviously taped for something it doesn't seem like the guys made any concessions to that fact, as unlike WWE trios where guys pair off and brawl around the arena but have the courtesy to not do anything of note while the camera isn't on them, here it seems like there's a bunch of crazy stuff happening at once. By the time the action makes its way back to the ring, Tim Patterson is already bleeding and I have no clue why. Casas and Santo Jr anchor the match with their lucha stuff while everyone else brawls. Santo Jr's top rope flip senton to tope suicida was probably the standout spot to me. I could see complaining that this was just a cluster and I can't really disagree but it was nonstop action with a more wild feel than the majority of matches that attempt to be wild. Chris Hero vs. Akira Tozawa - PWG Battle of Los Angeles 2010, Day 2 - 09/05/2010 I asked my friend Jape to tell me a match to watch for this post and I guess this was the first thing that popped into his head. I'm not much of a fan of the US indies so I probably would never have watched this otherwise. The main thing that bothered me about this match was that with such a stark size difference I felt the psychology of the match should've really worked more around it, but they obviously wanted to work a spotfest match and the big man/little man story isn't really compatible with that. There's pretty much no drama here, but as far as 'do a bunch of cool moves' matches go it's pretty good. I liked Hero's devastating looking senton and the cravate suplex thing. The nearfalls at the end get ridiculously excessive and I rolled my eyes at the 1 count, but they delivered exactly what you expect from this kind of match and exactly what the crowd wanted to see. Now y'all post about why I'm an idiot or w/e.
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Jul 9, 2014 03:02
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 05:38 |
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Blue Panther vs. Villano V - Mask vs. Mask, 2/3 Falls - CMLL 75th Anniversary, 19/09/2008 Hoooly gently caress this match. I've only just started to explore lucha and saw this mentioned as Blue Panther's best match in a great year for him. I have no clue about the storyline building up to this but this was just an incredible hate-filled war. Villano gets blasted with the sickest tope suicida I've ever seen early on. I really liked the way this was laid out. Villano gets DQed to end the first fall after he accidentally removes Panther's mask, which seems kinda weird since he's the rudo but I guess it was poetic justice for him trying to remove Panther's mask earlier. From that point it makes perfect sense for Panther to take a DQ in the second fall for removing Villano's mask. The heel control segment is worked perfectly and Panther's comeback with even more sick topes suicida is one of the best I've ever seen. My one minor gripe is that I've never really liked rollup type finishes but I suspect a lot of that is me coming from WWE where it's viewed as a cheap finish which isn't so much the case in Mexico I guess? Anyway crazy good match, one of the best I've ever seen with a big match atmosphere that rivals the biggest Wrestlemania main events. This would have almost undoubtedly been the 2008 Observer MOTY if it had taken place in a WWE ring. One to watch if you think Lucha is all just flippy workrate stuff, too.
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Jul 9, 2014 09:13
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Tokyo Slutty Gal posted:El Hijo del Santo, Atsushi Onita & Tarzan Goto vs. Negro Casas, Horace Boulder & Tim Patterson - 2/3 falls - FMW in Los Angeles - 05/16/1992 Chair fight  I remember reading somewhere in the WCW thread that Horace Hogan had been in a five star match, but no one could seem to remember how or when. I'll give him this, he wasn't absolutely wretched like one would expect given his later work in WCW but him being in this match at all feels kinda bizarre.
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Jul 9, 2014 18:00
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Volk Han vs. Nikolai Zouev - RINGS Rising Series: Yayoi - 03/18/1995 RINGS wouldn't be a full shoot organization for a few years at this point, so this is most likely eligible. RINGS rules allow for 5 Downs, rope breaks apply, actively hooking the rope is an Escape, which counts as one half of a fall. At this point, the tenacious Nikolai Zouev had met and bested wily sambo master Volk Han twice, once in the second round of the RINGS Mega Battle Tournament 1993 (best match of the night but folks I'm really loathe to admit that it didn't have to try very hard. Still worth watching) and a second time in a special rules "sambo" match (have never seen this one), so by this point the two know each other's tricks. The showcase of technical badasses opens aggressively, with Zouev acting first before Angry Volk has a chance to come out, and seemingly devolves into a brawl (despite Zouev fighting for position the whole time.) The entire match basically becomes the two competitors cautiously and (more and more) desperately trying for anything that works. Both guys constantly put themselves in unusual and ill-advised positions in order to prevent the other from hooking in their most devastating moves. Even without a full understanding of the grappling, some of the tactics are pretty cool (like a certain spot where Volk Han gets a rope break without getting a point against him) and plenty of (attempted) crazy submissions. Despite being a hardcore shoot style with a lot of fight style blurring, the wrestlers both use their body language to sell the emotion/pace of the match and really emphasize their differences. It's not really here because it's the best RINGS match (it's not my favorite Volk Han match), but it's one I saw recently with two guys I really like, and I kind of wanted to ps sorry for my lovely writing
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Jul 9, 2014 19:54
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LvK posted:Volk Han vs. Nikolai Zouev - RINGS Rising Series: Yayoi - 03/18/1995 I've never been able to get into shoot style stuff outside of BattlARTS where they work in a lot more traditional pro wrestling stuff - I guess I don't really understand what I'm supposed to be looking for in the matches. I know Han is considered the best shoot style worker ever and a top 10 worker of all time regardless of style by those who are into it though. I probably enjoyed this the most of any Han stuff I've seen which admittedly isn't very much. Given the structure of the match I get the impression Han is the babyface if it makes any sense to talk about heels and babyfaces in this stuff. Loved the vicious slaps/palm strikes, probably because it's a lot easier to understand than the matwork. Would be interested in seeing more stuff like this and trying to figure it out a little more.
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Jul 10, 2014 03:16
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Tokyo Slutty Gal posted:I've never been able to get into shoot style stuff outside of BattlARTS where they work in a lot more traditional pro wrestling stuff - I guess I don't really understand what I'm supposed to be looking for in the matches. I know Han is considered the best shoot style worker ever and a top 10 worker of all time regardless of style by those who are into it though. I probably enjoyed this the most of any Han stuff I've seen which admittedly isn't very much. Given the structure of the match I get the impression Han is the babyface if it makes any sense to talk about heels and babyfaces in this stuff. Loved the vicious slaps/palm strikes, probably because it's a lot easier to understand than the matwork. Would be interested in seeing more stuff like this and trying to figure it out a little more. Completely understandable. I wish I could actually put into words what I saw in the grappling, but I'm afraid I'm not that good at words. And, yeah, RINGS didn't really have "face/heel" (though there are a few older matches where Volk Han is distinctly working as heel as you can get in pure shoot style.) At this point Volk Han, despite being a badass submission expert, has been outdone twice by Zouev on his own turf and is basically coming into it as the fired up underdog ready to get his win back. Since I can't offer a decent analysis of the matwork itself, some things to watch out for: -The aforementioned opening brawl, where Zouev is going full ham to try and stuff out Volk's offense and get him in a hold, which prevents... -Volk Han snapping and going into full-on rage mode with furious palm combos -Zouev keeping Han away from the ropes at all costs, Han giving a bit less of a poo poo about Zouev's placement -Han diving towards the ropes despite being in a leg hold, and how Zouev reacts when he's in the same predicament -Volk Han gunning for his signature move, the flying heel hook -Any situation where someone releases a hold without ref interference - usually they're in a pretty perilous situation and, y'know, risk vs. reward -Actually, any situation where they start getting exasperated/panicked/looking at the ropes. Usually either something tricky or something FIGHTING SPIRITU~ is about to come up. -The final exchange, where it becomes one man hilariously turning himself into a puzzle loop to prevent a flash submission (and yeah, I like BattlARTS a lot, too, but the lack of cheaply available full cards is kind of offputting for me. I have to have a full show, even if I end up skipping a match.) edit: and you gotta say the full name. Fighting Detectives BattlARTS.
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Jul 10, 2014 13:45
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Double post for content: Akira Maeda vs. Volk Han - RINGS Astral Step: Final - 12/07/1991 This one's a bit more "traditional" puro (first year of the promotion, even) and the first bout between RINGS' classic matchup (and the earliest Volk Han match I've ever found - possibly his debut?) It's a bit rougher, imo, the grappling isn't nearly as smooth but it's far more crisp. Certain parts of the match are pretty much restholds, without the added benefit of pretending to work the hold like later shoot style would do. Right from the start, Volk Han shows off his patience and timing, and teases the flying heel hook (which Maeda powers out of.) It's established pretty quickly that Akira Maeda (who, despite fancying himself a submission grappler, was notorious for his kicks* and stubbornness) is a tough, fighting-spirit sumbitch and Volk Han is a crafty, unflappable foe. More importantly, it's the difference between "grab you from any position" (Han) and "put you in any position" (Maeda). It has the usual build of desperation for RINGS main events, and some nice strategy changes, but mostly I just love watching Volk Han's frustration manifest itself into laser-focused hatred and risky flying holds/running attacks. Also, there's a sequence I really like about 8 minutes in where Maeda hesitates on hooking the bottom rope, Han notices, tries to drag Maeda away and loses his advantage. Whoops! * - See: Choshu, Riki; Sayama, Satoru†; Giant, Andre the † - Doubly hilarious, since Sayama and Maeda's real-life dispute arose over Sayama prefering kicks while Maeda favored holds Volk Han vs. Dick Vrij - RINGS Battle Dimension: Osaka Metropolitan Circuit II - 07/13/1993 I always found this one really entertaining, but it's honestly kind of weird. Dick Vrij is a Dutch kickboxer, known for being tough as nails and capable of obscene power with his kicks. Volk Han is... less known for his strikes, but definitely has the grappling advantage over Vrij. I say "kind of weird" because Volk Han leads the match in standup, swarming the Terminator-looking flatlander out, and happily giving a showcase of his more dynamic almost-out-of-nowhere maneuvers. I figure this is because both competitors very well know that 1.) if Vrij has room to wind up his big kicks, he can cut Han down and 2.) it would be trivial for Vrij to destroy Han in the clinch. Vrij takes the defense and gets pushed against the ropes, which I think is a neat booking decision because it means that he can escape from Han's holds without making Han look weak, and keep the match from being over in a split second (remember, RINGS works by 'flash submission' rules, so no Vader's-arm-getting-worked-all-night IWGP tournament type stuff.) I think I've spoiled enough by this point, but I gotta say that they paced this match really well, and it's pretty exciting seeing how close both of these guys push the rules by the end. Tokyo Slutty Gal posted:El Hijo del Santo, Atsushi Onita & Tarzan Goto vs. Negro Casas, Horace Boulder & Tim Patterson - 2/3 falls - FMW in Los Angeles - 05/16/1992 I kind of have to agree, I usually hate sloppy outside-the-ring brawls (with some exceptions [almost all by a handful of wrestlers]), but this was fun. It was crazy go nuts and the atmosphere, selling, and occasional cuts to the more traditional action really helped smooth over some of the parts I hate most about these brawls (holding a guy on the head and leading him up the stairs gently). It's really weird how the match just suddenly re-focuses from the violent brawl out of nowhere. It's neat that the match is tailored around everyone's abilities and style, and it feels like nobody really had any trouble working with anyone else (though it's jarring seeing one of the luchas slow down suddenly for one of the slower wrestlers), though I feel like they did wisely decide to stick with their stylistic matchups. If I had one big complaint (and this may be in part because I have to watch on mute, and definitely in part because of the constant rewinds in the broadcast), it's that the match starts feeling too delirious, with wrestlers entirely disappearing off the screen, with no real exposition as to why. Some of that is the insanity of running out of the ring for big brawls, some of it is just the camera work/positioning. I honestly have no idea how you'd even possibly solve those issues. Oh, and even though everyone's offense looked good (selling varied), I definitely respect the decision to leave most of the in-ring action to any combo of the luchas. That kick to the rear end that Casas takes like 10 minutes in is a thing of beauty. More specifically, the sell is wonderful. And that entire sequence starting at the top rope senton is beautiful. And the cross-the-ring monkey flip exchange towards the end of the match made me get all giddy. And, man, wathing good high-fliers always makes me realize how much I hate the clunky "take 30 seconds to pause and set up" style. LvK fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 18:18
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