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So I honestly didn't realize that SA still existed until I dashed through GtN/HtN/NtN over the past couple of weeks and started digging through google for theories/explanations/things-I-missed last week after finishing NtN. Hellow fellow goons that I had just blithely assumed had disappeared into time! Holy poo poo, this series is amazing, and having now devoured the entire 59 pages of this thread I am in awe of the accurate (and even inaccurate) predictions of folks back before NtN released as to stuff that is now (sort of) explained. Anyway, just dropping in to share my intense love of the material and appreciation for you folks for helping me make extra sense of it (now mid GtN in a first-reread). If anyone somehow is reading this but hasn't yet read Gideon, just do it; it's not terribly long and [you will think] it makes pretty good sense on its own [until it doesn't because HtN/NtN]. Like many of you, who have waited far longer than I, I now join you in anxiously awaiting AtN and I will just say (echoing some others here) - NtN spoiler: the "biblical" speak at the very end of NtN might be amusing for a little bit but I sincerely hope it isn't the majority of AtN... but I also will trust Tamsyn Muir to do whatever she wants and hope it continues to astound, just like how HtN and NtN "shouldn't" have been my cup of tea but so, very much, were.
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Mar 2, 2023 02:04
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I will say, the part in NtN where Jod had said that G1deon was killed after the other nukes were launched, then says the opposite and Harrow-as-Alecto is like "I thought you said..." and he's just like "Did I? It doesn't matter" made me doubt essentially all of everything he said. Like, he might be copping to some poo poo but he's still definitely gaslighting and playing everything in the best light he can... Yes, I murdered EVERYONE, but it was [justification here]... some of what he's saying might be true, but it seems like he's just as easily lying to himself and/or Alecto to make his crimes/sins seem less than they are. I expect he did the worst of what you might surmise from his confessional, but also he's probably still very much retconning it. I expect the objective truth of what he did trends a LOT MORE towards unjustifiable genocide than his apologists in this thread may believe. Absent that, I can at least understand (if not support) how he got to Killing Everything, but I think this is still in Unreliable Narrator territory and it's far far worse than it sounds [even though it sounds REALLY BAD] . I also appreciate Ianthe as an amusing character even if I dislike her deep down... but I don't necessarily understand the hate she gets for saving Jod... as others have noted, the information known to her [at least as we know it] in HtN means she thinks that by saving him she's saving the Nine Houses (and, perhaps most importantly, her twin sister) from imminent death. WE may understand [intuitively or otherwise] that John is Bad, but she's been raised in a world where necromancy has no baggage attached to it, so I can't remotely fault her for saving him. Subsequent revelations (her seeking out BoE to talk about a Queen, etc.) may implicate that she had better knowledge than established and her decision is less defensible, but as far as what we know she knows, I can't really fault it even if Gideon clearly does [maybe with the benefit of AtN hindsight] and the general expectation that John is a Bad Dude and helping him is probably Not Going To End Well. Prediction/spoiler based on Tamsyn Muir interview quotes I do think Tamsyn Muir's statements in interviews that Ianthe is AWFUL [in her general Ianthe way] in AtN _plus_ that the twins vie for final Worst Twin status means Corona has to take a hard heel turn... she's been pretty fluid, being ineffectual but gross/weird in GtN where her only concern is that Ianthe didn't eat her, then turning around to actually be... helpful?... in NtN, but the interviews seem to suggest she's only going downhill from there in AtN. Curious to see where it goes, but simultaneously annoyed at Spoilers? I am intruiged/bothered by the friendship bracelet thing... based on interviews, I get the "cheeseburger" versus "fries and soda" part of Gideon's soul thing suggests Kiriona isn't Full Gideon, but I hope there's some satisfying resolution to why Gideon is palling around with Ianthe and Jod. If it's just "Oh, Gideon is a different person when surrounded by her Jad and someone else who "appreciates" her [sure, lets pretend THAT could describe Ianthe...]" I don't think It'll land for me, but - again - trust to Tamsyn Muir... I'm still hoping the portion of Gideon that Hartrow ate but didn't digest has been returned by the kiss at the end of NtN and we'll get Full On Gideon in AtN. Or maybe she's playing Ianthe? I don't know, I just want to square Gideon's recitation that Ianthe saving Jod was the "worst" possible thing she could have done with Gideon* showing up in NtN apparently besties with her Also, did I miss something about why (GtN Spoiler) Gideon apparently despises the Fourth House teens in GtN? Like is it just jokey "TEENS SUCK" energy (from a nearly-teen herself) or is there something about them that is lovely? They're referred to pejoratively throughout GtN without any real explanation other than the Fourth House seems kinda obsessed with suicide-by-necrowar and - again - they're teens. I'm in my 30s so if its just meant to be "ugh, TEENAGERS" then that's fine, but making sure I didn't miss something else? Obviously Gideon seems to care for them by the time they get boned later in GtN, but I still couldn't really understand the "awful teens" lingo throughout...?
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Mar 2, 2023 03:14
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Decon posted:And the ninth house being, itself, a social mess. That's fair - Gideon is hilarious so as much as it may be easy to see her relationships generally as having issues, I guess I kind of gloss it for more "background" stuff like this. Just wasn't sure if I was missing something beyond the general age and whinging! Noooo, don't say we're whinging!
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Mar 2, 2023 19:07
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But this just means all 200 of her peers hated and bullied her  Also, its explicitly said that Ortus is among the total-of-200 but doesn't die, right? So Harrow actually is 1 [herself] +199 souls? I vaguely remember they keep saying she has 200 dead kids inside of her or otherwise referencing genociding 200 but isn't that off by 1 cause Ortus' mom intervened to make sure he wasn't killed?
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Mar 2, 2023 19:55
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OK so I am re-reading HtN and towards the end of Ch14, Harrow is talking to Jod about how she was created and he says "they [Harrow's parents] did something nigh-on impossible. I know, because I have committed the same act, and I know the price I had to pay. Thalergetic modification of an embryo is difficult enough, but to achieve the same thing with thanergy..." I'm wondering if we know specifically what he's referring to? Best I can think of is with the people he resurrected and gave some of necromantic power? I'm also curious he references being thanergy being more difficult... is the implication that he harneses thalergy via Alecto...? It would make a certain sense - having a planet worth of life as your other half would seem to readily supply far more thanergy than you consume in the usual lyctoral process, but does this mean he's working with a side of magic that [other, regular] lyctors are wholly tuned out of? Like what Harrow/Gideon have sort of botched into might come close, but would both explain the miracles of Jod (even beyond a "mere" lyctor) as well as what may be to come in AtN.
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Mar 21, 2023 23:59
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Everyone posted:A zillionaire on Earth which got destroyed or something. Also, God just tried to kill his rear end and destroyed Earth in the process. To that point, I am curious how the zillionaires "saw" Jod's attempts to obliterate them. If I remember correctly, he only caught the ones that weren't essentially already going FTL, right? Did those already going warpspeed actually get info about what happened to the ones he wrecked? Or was it more like they got where they were going and the others never arrived, so they just assumed there was some catastrophe or disaster maybe affecting the equipment that put them at warpspeed? Either way, especially given his first retributive swipe was a bit before he began resurrecting poo poo, you gotta imagine the zillionaires AT MOST assumed someone on earth got mad at their deception and tried to stop them but (partially failed) and then succumbed to the same inevitable death as the rest of the population was facing; MAYBE they got some kind of reports about the nukes that were sent out as it was happening, but they definitely had no reason to believe anyone survived. Then
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Apr 18, 2023 16:38
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As far as who/what Nona is, I keep going back to some interview Tamsyn gave where she said something to the effect that Gideon was a happy meal and Harrow hadn't eaten the whole thing... we know some part of Gideon is [was?] in Harrow-thus-probably-Nona, and some part isn't. I generally subscribe to the view that the part Harrow didn't eat is what's somehow gotten into Corpse Prince, so it's some of Gideon but not all of it. Seems reasonable that her hatred of ianthe and friendship bracelets might be what's not in Corpse Prince, but also who the gently caress knows because there's a whole set of things that have happened off screen to get Corpse Prince off earth, out of the hands of BoE, up and walking, etc. As Loki Kunti just said, Alecto now please?
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Jun 27, 2023 13:30
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silvergoose posted:Relistening to harrow (mostly cause of you dawgstar) and oh my fuckin lord Moira's Mercymorn is so, so good I know this has been posted here before, but (spoiler if you haven't finished Harrow yet) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvJOuUJNcx8 is so amazing. Saw it after reading them all but not having listened to any of the audio books and its why my second "read" was with Moira Quirk.
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Jul 7, 2023 14:21
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DreamingofRoses posted:You haven’t read Nona yet have you? Yeah, I want Dawgstar to revisit that post once he catches up.
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Jul 15, 2023 19:31
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Reclaimer posted:It's one of Lana Kane's catchphrases in Archer, like an aggressive "you are not stopping me" assertion. Thanks for catching this - when reading and listening to it in book, it always felt familiar but I couldn't place it. Dunno if this is the intended "source" but it's 100% the same vibe.
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Jul 26, 2023 15:50
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ullerrm posted:Best Muir quote about TLT fandom ever: I may have to keep this (specifically the headcannon springing fully formed as to Goofy and Naberius' slowly declining marriage in less than a minute) in my back pocket to help explain the Mind of Muir to people when I can get them to first start reading Gideon (or while trying to convince them). It's this ^^^ kind of ridiculous and hilarious premise mixed with insane interconnectivity and foreshadowing and a wonderfully complex world and overarching plot.
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Oct 3, 2023 13:20
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We're reporting live from a small Diner on Uranus, talking to blue-collar skeletons who work the fields to provide the paste for the Eighth House, and asking whether they support the Necrolord Prime! We're hearing they fully support him to the extent we can get any sort of communicative response... And we've just learned that their mere existence is assumed to be 100% in support of Jod, without whom they wouldn't be animated, so we're breaking the news that there is 100% support for him here on the ground. Back to you in the studio!
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Oct 23, 2023 16:28
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Rand Brittain posted:I think Muir has already said that if Cytherea hadn't shown up, it would still have been just Ianthe who made Lyctor. (Spoilers because who knows if new readers may be coming through here and accidentally lay eyes on this) I'm not well versed in Muir interview additional information, but I'm not sure I follow? As a starting point, wouldn't it presume that if Cytherea wasn't involved no one would have potentially figured out perfect lyctorhood? It seems fair to assume that none of the houses - acting solely on their own in a "game" where whoever solves a puzzle first get exclusive access to the knowledge from that test [and resulting chamber notes] - would have figured out perfect lyctorhood, but I think it's also reasonable to believe that some houses would have worked together if Cytherea hadn't been involved. Obviously the tensions engendered by the setup of the challenge (that the first to ascend would be the only "winner") may still have meant that some houses refused to collaborate (see, e.g., Ninth House paranoia, Eighth House enmity, and Third House selfishness). But, keep in mind, if Cytherea wasn't involved then Dulcinea would have been there and she and Palamedes may have collaborated (especially once Palamedes got to the disintegration challenge which he refused to do to Cam). I also feel like the Fifth would have probably been open to collaboration generally if they had survived longer, and that could also have pulled in the Fourth. I'm also not convinced that the Second wouldn't have possibly been willing to work together if bodies hadn't been hitting the floor; they may not have had particular ties to the others (beyond maybe the Fourth just on the basis that their house is a general feeder for the army) but they seem like they would have been motivated to get the empire more Lyctors to support the cause [genocide]. I figure if that coalition (4/5/6/7 and maybe 2) had obtained ANY of the keys and - thus - had knowledge Harrow would have needed to figure out lyctorhood based on her lack of experience with anything but bone magic, and if that coalition couldn't figure it out themselves without her, they would have tried to get her to work with them. If 2/4/5/6/7/9 were all working together, it seems there's a reasonable chance they could figure out perfect lyctorhood. You've got Harrow's raw talent/baby-ghosts-and-maybe-Alecto-power, Palamedes' intelligence, Abigail's incredible spirit knowledge (ok, ok, different sub-specialty as the Eighth, but maybe a sufficient stand-in), reasonable knowledge of Flesh from Dulcinea as a stand-in for the Third's expertise in that area. If they did figure out perfect lyctorhood, it seems like the grounds for all the folks who saw the lyctor process as an abomination would have gone away. Any apparent reason it would be out of the question? Obviously Muir knows far more than we do, so if that was what she said I'd take it as true (of course!) but I wonder if she may have been specifically meaning the flawed lyctor process; IE, none of the other houses would have been willing to pull an Ianthe and sacrifice their cavs. The only others I could see doing it would be the Second (as an act of duty for the good of the empire, maybe), or Fourth (sacrifice and matyrdom seems their whole schtick, so unless the Fifth stopped them, I could see Jeannemary basically pulling a Gideon and forcing her sacrifice so Isaac would be able to ascend, even if he didn't want her to) - both as noted by PupsOfWar. Kind of interesting to consider how poorly this could have gone for Jod; especially given he's able to River-teleport, I'm surprised he didn't at least pop in to oversee it at least a little bit; given RBs have to travel the distance, seems like it would be wholly possible for him to have overseen the initiation and then rivered back to the mythraeum, then check in weekly or whatever. Though that also kind of begs the question why fight the RBs if Jod can just travel the River to cross vast distances quickly, such that they could have just ping-ponged the RBs between two incredibly distant locations with nothing (inhabited [by anyone Jod "cares" about) in between them?
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Dec 6, 2023 19:23
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sebmojo posted:But John is nice, this doesn't make any sense Seriously, it says it right there on the first page of the first book! "In the myriadic year of our Lord - the ten thousandth year of the King Undying, the kindly Prince of Death!..."
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Dec 6, 2023 21:55
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C-Euro posted:E: finished. What the gently caress did I just read. Correct!
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Dec 29, 2023 18:41
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C-Euro posted:They're fun books and author is way way into them, OP. One thing I've noticed that Muir did well in the first two books, compared to some other popular fantasy that I may or may not current be reading, is that there are both just enough Proper Nouns to keep track of them all, AND they all feel distinct enough that keeping track of who's who/what's what isn't a chore. Everyone and everything has enough personality to keep them all distinct, even if the personality is sometime "is boring/a hater/a wet blanket". Didn't realize it until you said it, but this is so true! I often have trouble keeping track of character names in series with lots of them and default to just "the annoying one" or whatever, but somehow Muir managed to get me to remember names beyond just personalities to a much higher degree... I'd say it was a product of the numbering-naming, but I actually remembered first names not just the number-based names!
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Jan 15, 2024 16:15
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Mr. Teatime: Your wife is an amazing artist!sebmojo posted:Tamsyn's not in a great way, is my understanding, so it will come out when it comes out. Apparently there's a speculative 2025 date but I think that's just a placeholder. I used to chide myself that artists/creators (in whatever medium) don't owe their audience anything whenever GRRM's writing delays came up (of course, this was like A LITERAL loving DECADE AGO). I've since stopped caring about that particular series but I guess the same underlying truism applies here, except with a whole lot more good will attached to it. Will echo StumblyWumbly that I hope she focuses on herself and stays/gets healthy and I look forward to getting Alecto when/if ever she may grace us with it 
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Apr 18, 2024 15:59
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Strange Cares posted:I can imagine no worse fate for this series than for Branderson to get his fingers all over it As someone who actually enjoys Sanderson's stuff, I can't help but agree. The magic here is the literal inverse of Sanderson's style/method.
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Apr 19, 2024 14:24
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Oh, sorry - to clarify by "the magic", I meant what is great about the books.. not the actual magic system! Like you said, Strange Cares, the best part about these books is the polar opposite of what I enjoy about Sanderson's stuff, so him doing it just couldn't work well.
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Apr 19, 2024 16:05
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