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Butter Activities posted:Our esteemed professor seems to agree that honoring people murdered by the IDF is "offensive to many" and that the student camps etymological roots confer a militaristic threat of force. What is with this "professor" stuff are you referring to something specific or just being some sort of rear end?
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May 1, 2024 18:33
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socialsecurity posted:What is with this "professor" stuff are you referring to something specific or just being some sort of rear end? Oakland Martini posted:Speaking as a professor, Sounds like you need some media literacy friend
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May 1, 2024 18:35
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Butter Activities posted:Our esteemed professor seems to agree that honoring people murdered by the IDF is "offensive to many" and that the student camps etymological roots confer a militaristic threat of force. The risk here for protestors is that they convince too many bystanders with this argument, which may prevent any future support for Palestinian independence, or any action to inhibit Israeli atrocities against civilians. (The professor's argument regarding encampment is an extreme, disingenuous reach, as your average person will not know etymology unless told by someone else...) RC01214 fucked around with this message at 18:40 on May 1, 2024 |
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May 1, 2024 18:37
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Butter Activities posted:“Very tolerant” by sending in the cops to crack skulls and mass expulsions over mere speech. You’re dishonest as gently caress or willfully ignorant. Taking over a building until you get what you want isn't expressive; it's coercive. Failing to understand the difference leads to uninformed statements like the above.
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May 1, 2024 18:37
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Butter Activities posted:The whole “well you have to accept the consequences if you protest” is white noise from centrists like our wise professor here, the students already know this because they are already facing consequences that, despite our learned friends claim, cannot easily be fixed with a go fund me.
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May 1, 2024 18:42
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tagesschau posted:Taking over a building until you get what you want isn't expressive; it's coercive. Failing to understand the difference leads to uninformed statements like the above. We coerce people to do the right thing all the time. What do you think the government is all about?
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May 1, 2024 18:43
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tagesschau posted:Taking over a building until you get what you want isn't expressive; it's coercive. Failing to understand the difference leads to uninformed statements like the above. Apparently you haven't been informed that some things may have happened before the building takeover.
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May 1, 2024 18:44
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Butter Activities posted:Apparently you haven't been informed that some things may have happened before the building takeover. I don't know where you get that idea. The NYPD wasn't asked to come in until the building takeover; your claim that they were brought in, or that students were expelled, over "mere speech" isn't supported by the facts.
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May 1, 2024 18:45
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tagesschau posted:I don't know where you get that idea. https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2024/04/18/columbia-student-gaza-protests-nypd/ tagesschau posted:your claim that they were brought in, or that students were expelled, over "mere speech" isn't supported by the facts. Wanna toxx? Butter Activities fucked around with this message at 18:52 on May 1, 2024 |
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May 1, 2024 18:46
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I might argue that one of the purposes of such disruptive activities is to put on display the State's willingness to inflict violence on activists.
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May 1, 2024 19:08
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tagesschau posted:I don't know where you get that idea. The NYPD wasn't asked to come in until the building takeover; your claim that they were brought in, or that students were expelled, over "mere speech" isn't supported by the facts. What the gently caress are you talking about. The police started arresting people weeks ago.
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May 1, 2024 19:09
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Butter Activities posted:https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2024/04/18/columbia-student-gaza-protests-nypd/ I don't have a Washington Post subscription, but you seem to be talking about the people who were asked to leave private property and opted to remain there instead. The intent was pretty clearly to obstruct Columbia's ordinary operations (including commencement) until the university gave them what they wanted. That's a coercive act, not an expressive one. Jimlit posted:What the gently caress are you talking about. The police started arresting people weeks ago. Not for "mere speech," as claimed.
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May 1, 2024 19:43
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tagesschau posted:I don't have a Washington Post subscription, but you seem to be talking about the people who were asked to leave private property and opted to remain there instead. The intent was pretty clearly to obstruct Columbia's ordinary operations (including commencement) until the university gave them what they wanted. That's a coercive act, not an expressive one. You’re right. When you put it that way I’m totally on board. That’s a really good point they were just simply asked to leave private property so calling in an armed force to beat and detain a bunch of students is totally right, and they need to accept the consequences of doing so. That being said, I’m wondering why all these Israelis are so angry about Oct 7, Hamas and PIJ just asked them to leave private property that was forcibly and coercively occupied Palestinian property. Why couldnt the few hundred Israeli civilians just accept the consequences of their actions or make a go fund me?
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May 1, 2024 19:54
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tagesschau posted:Not for "mere speech," as claimed. While he is right to play under DnD rules just in case anyone was wondering plenty of college and high school students have been suspended for mere speech by here’s a quick google even the internet is flooded about stories after the encampments started. https://ktla.com/news/local-news/at-least-18-students-face-suspension-after-protest-at-pomona-college/amp/ https://www.columbiamissourian.com/...29db820b3f.html https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/15/us/palestinian-student-expelled-pine-crest-florida http://freespeechproject.georgetown.edu/tracker-entries/mother-posts-pro-palestinian-comments-online-leading-to-sons-expulsion-from-school/
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May 1, 2024 19:59
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Butter Activities posted:While he is right to play under DnD rules just in case anyone was wondering plenty of college and high school students have been suspended for mere speech by here’s a quick google even the internet is flooded about stories after the encampments started. Butter Activities posted:https://ktla.com/news/local-news/at-least-18-students-face-suspension-after-protest-at-pomona-college/amp/ quote:The remaining protestors were “given multiple lawful orders and adequate time to leave” by officers but they still refused to leave, so arrests were made at the request of Pomona College administrators, Claremont police added. quote:Washington University officials confirmed Sunday that police arrested 100 people “who refused to leave after being asked multiple times,” according to a news release. Butter Activities posted:https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/15/us/palestinian-student-expelled-pine-crest-florida This is the only one with the faintest whiff of truth to it, but it still boils down to "mom who worked for the school made incendiary and disturbing posts on social media, kept going after being told to stop, and as a result, she was fired and her son expelled." Kind of lovely to punish the son for his mother's poor judgment, but it's completely unsurprising that prep schools like to project a certain image and don't particularly want to employ people who go around torpedoing it. So, no examples of people getting their skulls cracked in by jackbooted thugs, and one example of one kid getting expelled because his mom posted something dumb online. Is it too much to ask for you to engage seriously with this topic?
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May 1, 2024 20:27
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RC01214 posted:I am not sure local protesters are joining these protests in numbers, but that would be hard to tell. Well, that first sentence goes right to the heart of it. When I said that getting injured by police can be an effective tactic under the right circumstances, the "right circumstances" part of that is very important. If the correct circumstances aren't in place, and the proper groundwork hasn't been built up, then getting beaten up by the police isn't going to help much and might even be actively counterproductive. College protests usually have an uphill battle to establish those circumstances. First, large colleges tend to have a lot of kids from out of town who're only there for a few years and don't have especially strong ties to the surrounding community. Second, college populations tend to be very demographically different from both the surrounding area and the mainstream US, so their ideological concerns and issue positions will tend to be rather different from the rest as well (and opinions on Israel/Palestine tend to vary especially widely by age). Third, any individual college in a major urban area is going to have a relatively small population compared to the surrounding area, so the student population is unable to present a large threat on its own without the local or national support that it's quite unlikely to get. And while I didn't mention this one before, a fourth very important issue is that there isn't any particular deep-seated resentment here on either side, so the police aren't going to excessively escalate to absolutely absurd levels of brutality the way that Jim Crow sheriffs or Pinkertons might. There's other, smaller issues as well, but that's more than enough to create a very uphill battle for college protesters. And if they don't have some external base of potential support to draw from, then it's easy to dehumanize them or blame them for the violence, disinformation becomes trivial, and so on. In some cases, not only will they fail to gain much support and sympathy from the local community, but they might even get attacked by counter-protesters from the local community, as sometimes happened in labor disputes back around the start of the 20th century. Many industrial workers of that era in the US were migrant workers housed in company towns and had very few ties to neighboring communities, so locals tended not to sympathize with them or their politics. It's not impossible for it to escalate into something larger - Kent State led to solidarity protests at colleges all over the country - but it's certainly very difficult and won't happen easily (in the case of Kent State, an anti-Vietnam movement had been thriving on college campuses for years with frequent protests all over the country).
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May 1, 2024 21:04
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tagesschau posted:Not mere speech. Debunked. Those are direct examples of people being censored for their speech by authorities, simply because they were "tresspasing" does not make it any less an example of censorship.
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May 1, 2024 21:33
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Nucleic Acids posted:Those are direct examples of people being censored for their speech by authorities, simply because they were "tresspasing" does not make it any less an example of censorship. I guess today is the day you learn about time, place and manner restrictions, which are not credibly labeled as censorship. Or do you think I have the right to read this post over and over in your living room with a bullhorn until you give me  ?
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May 1, 2024 21:51
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tagesschau posted:I guess today is the day you learn about time, place and manner restrictions. Or am I invited to read this post in your living room with a bullhorn? Id like to take a moment and draw a parallel here between the current student protests and the sit-ins of the civil rights era - I suppose under your framework that the operators of whites-only restaurants were justified in calling in the police since the civil rights protesters were acting on private property where they weren't welcome?
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May 1, 2024 21:52
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Realistically, I think a key problem with the current protests in the US is that they detract attention from the real issue, which is what's going on in Occupied Palestine. I appreciate the role of the protests to draw attention to the subject, but when the reaction to the protest is given more attention than the issue being protested, it renders the entire thing a bit silly. The media coverage of these protests has completely dwarfed the coverage of Israel's crimes in Occupied Palestine, on the eve of an offensive in Rafah, and therefore I have to think it's basically counterproductive.
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May 1, 2024 22:08
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That presumes that the media would be willing to report on the atrocities in Palestine if not for this, that they aren't looking for other things to report on instead.
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May 1, 2024 22:17
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As someone who has a rather dim interpretation of most modern forms of "protest," while I do agree that they may be distracting from the real issue of Israeli aggression in their occupation of Gaza, it must be acknowledged that the second aspect of the issue does not follow. The national media was already disinclined from covering the "real" issue, so it's only a natural consequence the coverage of the protests would end up outpacing the humanitarian crisis.
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May 1, 2024 22:18
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PT6A posted:Realistically, I think a key problem with the current protests in the US is that they detract attention from the real issue, which is what's going on in Occupied Palestine. I appreciate the role of the protests to draw attention to the subject, but when the reaction to the protest is given more attention than the issue being protested, it renders the entire thing a bit silly. The media coverage of these protests has completely dwarfed the coverage of Israel's crimes in Occupied Palestine, on the eve of an offensive in Rafah, and therefore I have to think it's basically counterproductive. This is not the position of the PFLP: https://twitter.com/CallaWalsh/status/1782868261413028083 nor Gazans: https://twitter.com/EyeonPalestine/status/1785668281942118705 nor Gazans in Rafah: https://twitter.com/AbuAliEnglishB1/status/1784265872372011020 Maybe this doesn't represent all Gazans or Palestinians, but I'll take their perspective on the situation over yours
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May 1, 2024 22:22
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tagesschau posted:Is it too much to ask for you to engage seriously with this topic? ZShakespeare posted:Your pm to me showing me receipts of your monetary donations to Israel’s genocide are the last straw. You are no longer welcome in this thread as long as I am IK. I don't think someone who is threadbanned in canpol for being a genocidal shithead is in any position to accuse people of not engaging in the thread the right way. You are naturally going to support any and all action, no matter how abhorrent, against the protesters because you support the genocide that they are protesting against wholeheartedly. PT6A posted:Realistically, I think a key problem with the current protests in the US is that they detract attention from the real issue, which is what's going on in Occupied Palestine. I appreciate the role of the protests to draw attention to the subject, but when the reaction to the protest is given more attention than the issue being protested, it renders the entire thing a bit silly. The media coverage of these protests has completely dwarfed the coverage of Israel's crimes in Occupied Palestine, on the eve of an offensive in Rafah, and therefore I have to think it's basically counterproductive. This is an issue of coverage of the protests, not the protests themselves. Reactions to the protests in the Middle East have been very positive and Palestinians have endorsed them. You are not arguing in good faith. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 1, 2024 22:23
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PT6A posted:Realistically, I think a key problem with the current protests in the US is that they detract attention from the real issue, which is what's going on in Occupied Palestine. I appreciate the role of the protests to draw attention to the subject, but when the reaction to the protest is given more attention than the issue being protested, it renders the entire thing a bit silly. The media coverage of these protests has completely dwarfed the coverage of Israel's crimes in Occupied Palestine, on the eve of an offensive in Rafah, and therefore I have to think it's basically counterproductive. One of your worse takes. Lifelong Palestinian activists, including those in Gaza, are applauding the protests and the Israeli Prime Minister has denounced them.
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May 1, 2024 22:28
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PT6A posted:Realistically, I think a key problem with the current protests in the US is that they detract attention from the real issue, which is what's going on in Occupied Palestine. I appreciate the role of the protests to draw attention to the subject, but when the reaction to the protest is given more attention than the issue being protested, it renders the entire thing a bit silly. The media coverage of these protests has completely dwarfed the coverage of Israel's crimes in Occupied Palestine, on the eve of an offensive in Rafah, and therefore I have to think it's basically counterproductive. It reminds me of how discourse about the Snowden revelations was almost entirely about Snowden himself and not that he revealed the government was spying on everyone to the point where privacy is dead. People have a hard time remembering the content of the leak . Same goes with Chelsea Manning. Nobody remembers what she revealed such as duplicity from gulf state tyrants or the cover-up of the US government killing journalists with drones as collateral damage while lying about it. For me personally my feeds are a non stop barrage of human misery and terror by Israel on the people of Gaza. I cannot fathom how anybody could be pro-Biden or pro-Israel
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May 1, 2024 22:33
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OwlFancier posted:That presumes that the media would be willing to report on the atrocities in Palestine if not for this, that they aren't looking for other things to report on instead. There's been tons of mainstream media reporting on the atrocities in Palestine. For example, this story that extensively covers Israeli attacks on hospitals in Gaza is on the top of CNN's World section right now. It's an old article, and it's nowhere to be seen on the front page, but I guess all the reporters were busy with other stories: 
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May 1, 2024 22:36
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Sundance Shot posted:This is an issue of coverage of the protests, not the protests themselves. Reactions to the protests in the Middle East have been very positive and Palestinians have endorsed them. You are not arguing in good faith. Yes, I will agree it's an issue with the coverage, and I should say that I'm in favour of the protests in a general sense, but I think having press conferences about the conditions faced by the protesters at Columbia, for example, is not great. I'm strongly in favour of the protests at my alma mater, and the support of such by the First Nations whose unceded territory they're occurring on.
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May 1, 2024 22:43
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Morroque posted:As someone who has a rather dim interpretation of most modern forms of "protest," while I do agree that they may be distracting from the real issue of Israeli aggression in their occupation of Gaza, it must be acknowledged that the second aspect of the issue does not follow. The national media was already disinclined from covering the "real" issue, so it's only a natural consequence the coverage of the protests would end up outpacing the humanitarian crisis. huh. yeah, that's ... yeah, got it in one with this
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May 1, 2024 22:51
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Oakland Martini posted:How do we decide which protests are "morally righteous" and which are not? As institutions, universities ought to remain neutral about contentious political issues (this is the main thrust of the Chicago Principles/Kelvin Report, which I strongly agree with).
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May 1, 2024 23:06
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Sundance Shot posted:I don't think someone who is threadbanned in canpol for being a genocidal shithead is in any position to accuse people of not engaging in the thread the right way. You are naturally going to support any and all action, no matter how abhorrent, against the protesters because you support the genocide that they are protesting against wholeheartedly. None of this is true.
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May 1, 2024 23:42
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tagesschau posted:None of this is true. No, it's quite true, I say this as CanPol's favourite punching bag. Somehow you managed to be a worse rear end in a top hat than me, and that's just... unsupportable.
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May 1, 2024 23:46
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So did the alleged Jewish victim at UCLA get beat up or not? I cannot find any video of the incident and both sides are just talking past each other like it's fact.
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May 2, 2024 01:34
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I hate to rain on this parade, but I think something worth acknowledging here is the demographic we're discussing. i.e., a vast majority of the protestors are impressionable high school and college students, many of whom likely could not identify Palestine (or the Levant in general) on a map before October 7. Why are we already proclaiming these kids martyrs and revolutionaries even though 99% of them could not give the slightest poo poo about the conflict before it became glamorized in the cultural zeitgeist? More so, many of them are just Caucasian bourgeois silver spoon-wielding suburbanites, which just makes them disingenuous white saviors at best. Look, I'm all for people trying to make the world a better place, but we've seen this movie before. Supporting Palestine has become trendy, and these "protestors" know that, just as boomers realized about Vietnam in the '60s, so instead of showering them with praise, give them the harsh truth: people are dying, and exploiting their suffering for applause is not admirable—it just makes you look like a loving tool.
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May 2, 2024 06:01
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Papf posted:I hate to rain on this parade, but I think something worth acknowledging here is the demographic we're discussing. i.e., a vast majority of the protestors are impressionable high school and college students, many of whom likely could not identify Palestine (or the Levant in general) on a map before October 7. Why are we already proclaiming these kids martyrs and revolutionaries even though 99% of them could not give the slightest poo poo about the conflict before it became glamorized in the cultural zeitgeist? More so, many of them are just Caucasian bourgeois silver spoon-wielding suburbanites, which just makes them disingenuous white saviors at best. Tens of thousands of children have been blown to pieces with American bombs, you don't need to know the last fifty years of Israel-Palestine history to be able to come to some sort of moral conclusion.
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May 2, 2024 06:20
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celadon posted:Tens of thousands of children have been blown to pieces with American bombs, you don't need to know the last fifty years of Israel-Palestine history to be able to come to some sort of moral conclusion. There is a stark contrast between coming to "some sort of a moral conclusion" and pledging allegiance to a government and cause you don't fully understand.
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May 2, 2024 06:32
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Papf posted:I hate to rain on this parade, but I think something worth acknowledging here is the demographic we're discussing. i.e., a vast majority of the protestors are impressionable high school and college students, many of whom likely could not identify Palestine (or the Levant in general) on a map before October 7. Why are we already proclaiming these kids martyrs and revolutionaries even though 99% of them could not give the slightest poo poo about the conflict before it became glamorized in the cultural zeitgeist? More so, many of them are just Caucasian bourgeois silver spoon-wielding suburbanites, which just makes them disingenuous white saviors at best. Registering just to post this aside, the students are protesting with concrete goals about their tuition money being invested in companies supporting the genocide. They know the investment portfolio of their respect universities and how that helps fund Israel, something you don't seem to know at all. So it kind of seems like maybe you're the one who should do some reading? You can try reading the detailed, well written statements that the student groups have put out, or look at the support they've gotten from people inside Palestine, or any number of things. The harsh truth here is that you should probably have done any of that before making this post, or hell, have posted it on your main account.
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May 2, 2024 06:32
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studio mujahideen posted:You can try reading the detailed, well written statements that the student groups have put out, or look at the support they've gotten from people inside Palestine, or any number of things. I never denied that those individuals exist, but I assure you they are few and far between and constitute a silent minority. Walk into your average university in the country (or, hell, just read the front page of CNN), and you'll see a whole swath of tent-bound trespassers—calling mommy and daddy as they get dragged away into cop cars—but very few (if any) peaceful protestors trying to raise funds diplomatically for a cause they believe in. Ultimately, if the latter were significantly more plentiful, you wouldn't be hearing about any of this because that doesn't produce lucrative headlines.
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May 2, 2024 06:47
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So you haven't actually read any of the actual demands written by the organizers of any of the protests, that all of the students at the protests are there to support. But hey, at least you've read the front page of CNN! There's a lot of pictures there, which I imagine makes it a lot easier for you. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 2, 2024 06:51
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Papf posted:I hate to rain on this parade, but I think something worth acknowledging here is the demographic we're discussing. i.e., a vast majority of the protestors are impressionable high school and college students, many of whom likely could not identify Palestine (or the Levant in general) on a map before October 7. Why are we already proclaiming these kids martyrs and revolutionaries even though 99% of them could not give the slightest poo poo about the conflict before it became glamorized in the cultural zeitgeist? More so, many of them are just Caucasian bourgeois silver spoon-wielding suburbanites, which just makes them disingenuous white saviors at best. Just because some of the students are impressionable or following the social media flavour of the month doesn't mean that they aren't being led by people who are more informed and competent and can make use of their rage at injustices. This is basically the way all protests work, you can't expect every single person to be super informed and it doesn't matter either way. Protests don't magically shift public opinion in one day, but simply showing people that "hey, there's a significant number of people who think there's something seriously wrong here" is important, as is the proliferation of the protests that can eventually lead to an even greater shift.
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May 2, 2024 08:32
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